Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[MadMikesch]

PP changes the situation completely. Now it is possible to change the relations of the powers and this has a big influence to the gameplay of each player. It is ridicolous that changes caused by invisible and unreachable players have influence to my gameplay.
In all other Online-games the solo-mode items, characters and gameplay-influences are seperated from the open-mode.
It would be the same if I use in Diablo3 my "Normal" Demonhunter in Hardcore. It's not fair.

 

[Robert Maynard]

PP changes the situation completely. Now it is possible to change the relations of the powers and this has a big influence to the gameplay of each player. It is ridicolous that changes caused by invisible and unreachable players have influence to my gameplay.
In all other Online-games the solo-mode items, characters and gameplay-influences are seperated from the open-mode.
It would be the same if I use in Diablo3 my "Normal" Demonhunter in Hardcore. It's not fair.

.... and players in other time zones will probably never be encountered; players with poor ping times to you will probably never be encountered; players on different platforms will probably never be encountered....

The single shared galaxy state is one of the core features of Frontier's game design. The ability for players to select which game mode they play in on a session-by-session basis is another.

The introduction of Powerplay has increased complaints regarding the perception of "unfairness" - we've yet to see if Frontier will make any changes to community goals (the last "new" reason why the modes "need to be separated") or Powerplay. There's a thread asking for forum users to make suggestions regarding the effects of the modes on community goals - all of us have the opportunity to request that a post is added to that thread (the thread is closed to keep it under control but posts are added on request).

 

[S.at]

I dont want to re-start the discussion for closed/group/open play.

The Powerplay takes count also from solo or group mode.
The effects can be everywhere, but if you want to alter a power it should be restricted to open.
In Solo- or group-mode you can farm and trade merits, support expansions without anybody can do something against.
Its like the Soloplayer can cheat down the open-Players.
No strategie, no roleplay - only the amount of merits traded are counting !

If restricted to open only the player think twice if and how he supports a power.
Merchants will order a wing support for safety, might a player'police' will make the mainsystems safe or help to underrun the enemys systems !
Uncountable new possibilitys of gameplay ...

Powerplay got to restricted to open only!

Totally agree.

We have a huge amount of unrealized gameplay's potential. And it's not just PVP. But it seems that FD does not need the interaction of the players. It seems like FD wants to keep players separately from each other. Solo, Private, problem Instances.
All the problems such as uncontrolled PK, battle llogoff, and others, can be solved by gaming methods. Many years of MMO experience could help.

 

[SteveLaw]

Totally agree.

We have a huge amount of unrealized gameplay's potential. And it's not just PVP. But it seems that FD does not need the interaction of the players. It seems like FD wants to keep players separately from each other. Solo, Private, problem Instances.
All the problems such as uncontrolled PK, battle llogoff, and others, can be solved by gaming methods. Many years of MMO experience could help.

Not quite. FD have stated many times that there is no right way to play. They don't want us to do, or not do, anything except choose for ourself how social we want our play session to be.

And have a closer look at those MMOs that are around, particularly the new ones. They are increasingly offering players a very similar choice in how "social" they want to be in their gameplay. It would seem that devs are indeed starting to look at those many years of experience and draw very similar conclusions. Not everyone wants PvP and choice is good.

I would, with all due respect, suggest that it's you who needs to move with times, and not FD.

 

[Lestenio]

Totally agree.

Totally disagree. I bought the game which includes the ability to play all free updates and content. If you are going to prevent me from playing free content then a refund had better be forth coming.

Had PP been a paid update for open only, I wouldn't care, but it wasn't.
The dev said its for open, solo and group. They repeated that less than 7 days ago.

 

[Arioch]

It is ridicolous that changes caused by invisible and unreachable players have influence to my gameplay.

So, every single player not in your instance then?

 

[S.at]

Not quite. FD have stated many times that there is no right way to play. They don't want us to do, or not do, anything except choose for ourself how social we want our play session to be.

And have a closer look at those MMOs that are around, particularly the new ones. They are increasingly offering players a very similar choice in how "social" they want to be in their gameplay. It would seem that devs are indeed starting to look at those many years of experience and draw very similar conclusions. Not everyone wants PvP and choice is good.

I would, with all due respect, suggest that it's you who needs to move with times, and not FD.

At the moment, except PVP, players have no interaction. If FD continue to divide, and then we will not get new features. This makes the game empty and lifeless, like a populated sector of the galaxy now in open. Now let's talk about the possibilities for the players. You say that a lot of them, and I can play how I want, right? But, if we play the PP, I can't stand against players playing solo/private, and forced to act as they act, if I want to protect the system from the expansion, for example. If I want to win, of course. The whole game turns into a mass grind. With the only available option. Where's the choice? If you call it "modern MMO", then just don't reply) to "Play how I like" is an illusion which will never produce a deep and varied gameplay. Btw, you missed an important part of my message. I was talking about the interaction of the players. Not only PVP. Think, this requires open.

 

[Jockey79]

You would think that separate servers would make everyone happy, but the truth is that those playing solo insist that they be on the same server as the open players so they don't feel left out.

Of course, there is also the issue of who is going to pay for another server.

And, the other problem is that frontier does not like all that awful player coordination that could lead to fun PvP play. Having an open only server might encourage players to organize and try to be disruptive to other players.

So separate servers isn't going to happen.

Just to point out, even if we had another server that was open only - then what?
The same people will be on the forums moaning they see even less people, that's what.

It's not the Solo or Group players that are moaning - keep that in mind. They are happy with what FD advertised and sold to them. They do not need or want loads of forced pew pew in their face when they play.
You mention "PvP play", but remember - this is a game that lets you PvP, it is not a PvP game. FD are making a standalone PvP game for people, it is called CQC - and it is not connected to the BGS.

I have been running a little route that took in Diso too during the "offer" in open, my type 6 has no guns but I do have good shields and a cell bank just in case, I have posted here each time I have been in open, 4 times I think in the last 2 / 3 weeks, I have even stated I had 100-200k CR of rares on the return trip that I was happy to share (sale price at Diso), I jokingly suggested I was scared & needed an escort, e.g. "come pirate me, you can have half, or all of it if you RP escort me to the station", I was in the mood for interaction that evening .

Probably been there 15-20 times in open, Friday and Saturday evenings mainly, I saw some players in SC to start with, less to none later on, I got interdicted by 1 AI & 1 CMDR, the AI was a bigger threat, I didn't hyperspace away from either, just SC and I was fine.

I assume by "manic" you mean really busy, I am in the UK and I was on after 10/11pm BST (GMT +1), what time were you on and where are you based?, it might be the UK crowd are a bit thin that time of night and the server is trying to match me with our friends in the USA.

My Speed test result is "ping 7ms, DL 20 Mbps, UL 6 Mbps" right now, I am on an AMD desktop via wifi, sometimes the DL & ping are worse but UL normally around 6Mbps.

I have seen maybe max 8/10 CMDRs in SC before but that was a while back, during the Diso excursion I think 3/4 was the most, I am still seeing CMDRs so I doubt its my setup, more likely the times, but 10/11 pm on a Friday / Saturday ain't late, well not to me.

Maybe I need to run "The Code" diagnostic, was it Lave or Leesti? I know its around there, Dammit, I still haven't been to Reidquat, I need to do that for old times sake too.

UK also, just outside of Coventry.
It was a Saturday, I did document it on the forums as I was playing (Steam Bowser, yay), but I think I started sometime around 1800hrs for six hours. Diso was near the start of my route so it would have been before 2000hrs.

The thing to keep in mind is player times, folks go out on a Saturday night. Normally about 2100hrs it thins out a little until the USA players are getting online (East US is -5 to us, west -8?) so 2200hrs is kind of the dead zone. UK folks are in the pubs getting hammered and US folks are just finishing whatever they were doing that day, eating and then getting ready to come online for a few hours. So, I've found that 2200hrs to 0100hrs is quite calm, then most of the states start coming online and we're off again with it being manic.

That how it seems to me anyway, from my "extensive" testing of social habits and online gaming

 

[SteveLaw]

At the moment, except PVP, players have no interaction. If FD continue to divide, and then we will not get new features. This makes the game empty and lifeless, like a populated sector of the galaxy now in open. Now let's talk about the possibilities for the players. You say that a lot of them, and I can play how I want, right? But, if we play the PP, I can't stand against players playing solo/private, and forced to act as they act, if I want to protect the system from the expansion, for example. If I want to win, of course. The whole game turns into a mass grind. With the only available option. Where's the choice? If you call it "modern MMO", then just don't reply) to "Play how I like" is an illusion which will never produce a deep and varied gameplay. Btw, you missed an important part of my message. I was talking about the interaction of the players. Not only PVP. Think, this requires open.

If you play PP you aren't *supposed* to stand against other players. You are supposed to use the tasks and counter tasks that are built into PP. What you want to do is *not* play PP. Or at least play your own version of it. You can't change the rules of the game for yourself and then expect the designer of the game to change their game to yours.

 

[Robert Maynard]

At the moment, except PVP, players have no interaction. If FD continue to divide, and then we will not get new features. This makes the game empty and lifeless, like a populated sector of the galaxy now in open. Now let's talk about the possibilities for the players. You say that a lot of them, and I can play how I want, right? But, if we play the PP, I can't stand against players playing solo/private, and forced to act as they act, if I want to protect the system from the expansion, for example. If I want to win, of course. The whole game turns into a mass grind. With the only available option. Where's the choice? If you call it "modern MMO", then just don't reply) to "Play how I like" is an illusion which will never produce a deep and varied gameplay. Btw, you missed an important part of my message. I was talking about the interaction of the players. Not only PVP. Think, this requires open.

Players can interact by communicating with each other without combat.

Player interaction does not require that players play in Open - there are Private Groups where players can choose exactly who they wish to interact with.

As Powerplay has been implemented for all players, in all modes, on all platforms, I do not expect that Frontier are requiring players to be able to be directly opposed (unless they want to, of course, it is their choice after all which mode to play in).

 

[Stormprooter]

PP changes the situation completely. Now it is possible to change the relations of the powers and this has a big influence to the gameplay of each player. It is ridicolous that changes caused by invisible and unreachable players have influence to my gameplay.
In all other Online-games the solo-mode items, characters and gameplay-influences are seperated from the open-mode.
It would be the same if I use in Diablo3 my "Normal" Demonhunter in Hardcore. It's not fair.

Hmm, if I were to play in "Open" all the time, I would never see any other players outside Western Europe, and highly unlikey to see any player outside of the UK (due to the way the P2P instancing works - best chance to play with someone outside the UK is private group/friends list). So, potentially hundreds of thousands of players in North America, Europe, Asia and Australia will never get matched with me in an instance, and they all can affect the galaxy state.
From this point of view, the whole solo/group/open argument about solo being unfair to be able to affect the "open" galaxy is a non-starter.

 

[S.at]

If you play PP you aren't *supposed* to stand against other players. You are supposed to use the tasks and counter tasks that are built into PP. What you want to do is *not* play PP. Or at least play your own version of it. You can't change the rules of the game for yourself and then expect the designer of the game to change their game to yours.

That's why PP is mass grind. How else can you combine two incompatible modes. That's why PP has so little gameplay features. So, it looks like the single player with the possibility to compare your scores with other offline players, at the end of the week. So where is the MMO?

Players can interact by communicating with each other without combat.

Player interaction does not require that players play in Open - there are Private Groups where players can choose exactly who they wish to interact with.

As Powerplay has been implemented for all players, in all modes, on all platforms, I do not expect that Frontier are requiring players to be able to be directly opposed (unless they want to, of course, it is their choice after all which mode to play in).

I know. But the interaction is not only a chat. I'm talking about gameplay opportunities we might never see, because FD wants to simultaneously satisfy those who want to play MMO, and those who want to play the single.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I know. But the interaction is not only a chat. I'm talking about gameplay opportunities we might never see, because FD wants to simultaneously satisfy those who want to play an MMO, and those who want to play the single.

Which gameplay opportunities do you have in mind that we may never see?

If they require one of the players to be forced into a situation that would mean that they are no longer playing the way that they want to, I don't expect that those opportunities would be anything but optional.

 

[Spook]

It is ridicolous that changes caused by invisible and unreachable players have influence to my gameplay.

So, every single player not in your instance then?

All six hundred and thirty nine thousand, nine hundred and sixty nine of them

 

[Jockey79]

I know. But the interaction is not only a chat. I'm talking about gameplay opportunities we might never see, because FD wants to simultaneously satisfy those who want to play MMO, and those who want to play the single.

MMO has nothing to do with how many people you see / interact with. It is your perception of what an MMO is that is broken not the game.

Wikipedia;
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.

Oxford English Dictionary (Online);
An online video game which can be played by a very large number of people simultaneously .

At no point do either of those say who I have to interact with.

In Guild Wars, I went on every mission on my own - as it was only the social (non combat areas) where we were force to see other players. The mission areas were private instances that were created on demand for the single or the group of players going in to it. Guild Wars is an MMO. MWO, WoT, War Thunder, Robocraft = all MMOs and all 24 or less people per game instance.

 

[Spook]

You know what. I reckon DB, Mike, Sandro and the rest of the crowd at FD had just an inkling of what they were doing when they set out to design the game in the way they did.

Step 1 – Four Hundred billion stars, to all intent and purpose an infinite play map. Domination style play is pretty pointless unless it’s focused centrally. Handing that control over to players has been tried in other games but required a single fundamental construct. Limitation of resources - either by space or by scarcity. Not possible here - see that infinite map thingy.

Step 2 – Look at how the gaming market appears to leaning. Subscriptions, though still around tend to be less dominant than they were so look to a plan generating revenue by new sales and micro transactions. So overall have to keep the cost down, yet still allow twitch based real time play use P2P.

Acknowledge that in light of the above:

Large-scale player to player interaction at a personal level is never going to be a focus. It can’t be. Some may even come to the conclusion that - It may even be rare and unusual, and so made more meaningful by that very rarity. Where did I hear that before?

Honey pot activities could be useful, but are never going to allow more interaction than the P2P networking can sustain – so design the back bone of such activities to not rely on direct interaction that’s always going to be constrained to the fluid instance size by P2P. No matter how much someone tries the maximum is always going to be the maximum instance size sustainable by the individual players network connection, limited by the lowest quality connection he/she is joined with. Instead use large scale metrics to determine the outcome and as player interaction is limited, even more so by spreading the player base over a larger area of the map, base it around PvE activities. Oh look Power Play.

Now to give those players who enjoy PvP on tap, something to sate their appetite for mayhem, as you’ve just reduced further the chance of meeting someone in that rather large play map, (even if you limited it to inhabited systems.) How’s about an arena style combat game. If only someone could come up with a name for it?

 

[Roland2]

You can kill standard Anaconda's with a sidewinder with 2 fixed weapons.

You can kill elite Anaconda's by equipping one single module on a utility hardpoint.

In CZ and RES, you have 20000 allies helping you fight the enemies.

You can win every interdiction unless your flying a Type9. And anything else can just FSD away.

The only chacne of dieing is in the high level USS, but nobody goes there because they are entirely USELESS.

I agree with the guy you are replying too, there is no threat from AI and there is NO Risk in solo/group.



--- Now my additional thoughts

I'm not one for force into open, but a divide between solo/private and open. Or a second galaxy with open only i am totally for.

If you change all the "You can" to "I can" you may be right. But I can't do these things, and from reading the forums neither can a lot of other people. Just because NPC's are no threat to you, doesn't mean they are no threat. You are not the only one playing the game.

 

[rckstr]

Who said I ever wanted to boycott it? And you do realize that for people NOT you.. NPCs can and are a challenge not everyone is in top of the line craft and so uber with their HOTAS that they can ignore NPCs and have more fun shooting defenseless PC traders.

In truth I don't object to people having a different opinion, don't object to people playing in open, or even PVPing. But as soon as someone come out with "solo is cheating"(like I saw few pages back), or "YOu have no risk or consequences" (as in the post I was replying too) type talk comes out then yeah.. at that point... it is whining. Especially since it has already been proven that both "arguments" are nothing but hogwash.

I have no HOTAS, i am playing with keyboard and mouse just like many others. Why should i have fun shoothing defenseless traders? As mentioned before, the traders and explorers that just want to do that are welcome in Solo and i can understand that they don't want to take the risk of being shot. But as soon as you pledge for a Power you are beyond just trading and exploring. In that very moment you took the decision to participate in a galaxy wide conflict scenario where you take the risk of being shot when stepping into enemy territory or trying to take a system someone else is also interested in.
To your point with cheating- If you are delivering goods to a system because you want to prepare it for expansion or you already are expanding, you should be forced to group up with people that defend you. That would be realistic in such a conflict scenario. Right no you bypass this. If you want to we can call this cheating. You cheat on every player who wants to stop you from bringing deliveries reqiered for a special task.

They're being quite specifically catered to with CQC, at the expense of what many of us think of as 'the REAL Elite', and they're still complaining. No, it doesn't make them bad people, just as self-centred as teenaged tornadoes on meth.

CQC will surely be fun for the quick pew pew and if you want to practice on maneuvering and fighting.
But the true Elite would be to have this PP scenario without Solo/Group. People working together, securing Systems because there are coming traders in. Others trying to Ambush those traders. I could continue until my fingers bleed but i am sure you know what my point is. In the end this would be the immersive, exciting and adrenaline pumping game we all wanted.

and u bring arma franchise here for what? why we should care of it?

And

Look at Witcher 3, big open world and single player. Skyrim, big open world and also single player. We can compare games that are different all day.

I have brought up Arma as a technical example for games being able to handle more then just 32 players. Don't act as if you didn't get this. Choosing P2P was (big) mistake. I and many others have expected to get a galaxy that is not that limited.

I often go to Strong Signal Sources in Solo. They are there to offer a challenge. You like a challenge right? That's why you play Open and not "easy" Solo. I don't understand why you don't try them. Seems to me you are playing in easy mode if you don't.

He doesn't go there because they are what he said- useless. I go in from time to time just because SSS are indeed a bit challenging from time to time. But from a story perspective they are useless. There are no missions involved around them, nothing.

PP changes the situation completely. Now it is possible to change the relations of the powers and this has a big influence to the gameplay of each player. It is ridicolous that changes caused by invisible and unreachable players have influence to my gameplay.
In all other Online-games the solo-mode items, characters and gameplay-influences are seperated from the open-mode.
It would be the same if I use in Diablo3 my "Normal" Demonhunter in Hardcore. It's not fair.

signed.

.... and players in other time zones will probably never be encountered; players with poor ping times to you will probably never be encountered; players on different platforms will probably never be encountered....

The single shared galaxy state is one of the core features of Frontier's game design. The ability for players to select which game mode they play in on a session-by-session basis is another.

The introduction of Powerplay has increased complaints regarding the perception of "unfairness" - we've yet to see if Frontier will make any changes to community goals (the last "new" reason why the modes "need to be separated") or Powerplay. There's a thread asking for forum users to make suggestions regarding the effects of the modes on community goals - all of us have the opportunity to request that a post is added to that thread (the thread is closed to keep it under control but posts are added on request).

And

Hmm, if I were to play in "Open" all the time, I would never see any other players outside Western Europe, and highly unlikey to see any player outside of the UK (due to the way the P2P instancing works - best chance to play with someone outside the UK is private group/friends list). So, potentially hundreds of thousands of players in North America, Europe, Asia and Australia will never get matched with me in an instance, and they all can affect the galaxy state.
From this point of view, the whole solo/group/open argument about solo being unfair to be able to affect the "open" galaxy is a non-starter.

You really come around with timezones and ping times?
If i walk to the grocer to see the cute girl at the checkout that worked there the day before i would see her if she is working there again. If today she has a day off i will not see her but if she starts working in solo mode all i would see is my stuff being pulled through the scanner without having the chance to interact. That what it's about.

At the moment, except PVP, players have no interaction. If FD continue to divide, and then we will not get new features. This makes the game empty and lifeless, like a populated sector of the galaxy now in open. Now let's talk about the possibilities for the players. You say that a lot of them, and I can play how I want, right? But, if we play the PP, I can't stand against players playing solo/private, and forced to act as they act, if I want to protect the system from the expansion, for example. If I want to win, of course. The whole game turns into a mass grind. With the only available option. Where's the choice? If you call it "modern MMO", then just don't reply) to "Play how I like" is an illusion which will never produce a deep and varied gameplay. Btw, you missed an important part of my message. I was talking about the interaction of the players. Not only PVP. Think, this requires open.

This, exactly this!

If you play PP you aren't *supposed* to stand against other players. You are supposed to use the tasks and counter tasks that are built into PP. What you want to do is *not* play PP. Or at least play your own version of it. You can't change the rules of the game for yourself and then expect the designer of the game to change their game to yours.

This is the way mechanics work just to please all solo players. Because they would feel excluded from the galaxy if they couldn't participate.

That's why PP is mass grind. How else can you combine two incompatible modes. That's why PP has so little gameplay features. So, it looks like the single player with the possibility to compare your scores with other offline players, at the end of the week. So where is the MMO?
I know. But the interaction is not only a chat. I'm talking about gameplay opportunities we might never see, because FD wants to simultaneously satisfy those who want to play MMO, and those who want to play the single.

You again And again i can only agree

Which gameplay opportunities do you have in mind that we may never see?

If they require one of the players to be forced into a situation that would mean that they are no longer playing the way that they want to, I don't expect that those opportunities would be anything but optional.

The opportunity to stop a player from doing an unwanted action. To stop him from doing stuff that would and up into his power expanding into another system. I don't want to counterattack the trigger value. I want to stop players from moving this value.


To sum my feelings up.
Open should be the only game mode that truly moves and shapes the galaxy. If someone wants to dock in at a station just to deliver goods that push his expansion he would have to sneak past me, come in numbers so i can not handle all or come with others that protect him.
Playing in Solo/Group should grant you all your progression with faction and ranks, earn you credits and merits. But you shouldn't be able to shift influence because you are doing this alone. What do you think how big your impact would be if you do something alone (solo) compared to a large scale of players.
Also i want to point out again that with Open the only available option for at least PP, the outcome, the influence made, would be a totally different one then it is now.

 

[Stormprooter]

You really come around with timezones and ping times?
If i walk to the grocer to see the cute girl at the checkout that worked there the day before i would see her if she is working there again. If today she has a day off i will not see her but if she starts working in solo mode all i would see is my stuff being pulled through the scanner without having the chance to interact. That what it's about.

I'm sure there are very many cute girls working at grocers shops all over the world, and you will never see any of them, no matter what game mode they choose to play.
By all means, try to force all into open - end result, you still will not see the vast majority.

 

[Jockey79]

....
Open should be the only game mode that truly moves and shapes the galaxy. ...

Ok, lets translate this to the real world.

I don't see you when you cast your vote at election time - so your vote should be thrown away and not be counted as you did not interact with me while you were voting.
It does not matter who you vote for, if you're voting for the same person as me or for the opposition, because I cannot see you vote - your vote does not matter and should be thrown away.

So, in the next elections - remember you are not allowed to vote unless you come and speak to me first.

Okay?