Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Meritz]

I take issue with this. But rather than once again point out that you are just projecting your opinion, this time I'm going to ask you to back up your opinions. Where are you getting your data that the game is no longer attracting 'this kind of audience'. Where in the marketing of the game does it say that Ed is a PvP game? Where on the , admittedly dramatized, trailers does it show definite PvP action? (And I don't just mean 'oh you can tell by this that and the other'. I mean actual FD trailers with CMDR names or hollow shapes on the radar... you know, the ONLY definite ways of showing Players rather than NPCs)

Really? That's your argument? Ok, yeah, ships flying around taunting each other while shooting during 90% of the footage are actually NPC traders. Come on. They even have one where someone is blown up right inside a station. If they wanted to attract explorer/miner/trader crowd, they should have used Titus' "Wonders of the Galaxy" series.

What's on the front page? Explosions and fighting.
What does it say? "Some may know you as an ally; others will call you a pirate, a bounty hunter, a smuggler, an explorer, an assassin, a hero..." - sounds like multiplayer to me.
HTML title tag? "Elite: Dangerous Official Game Site | Epic multiplayer space adventure" - that stuff is displayed right on search results, first thing people see even before they click the link.
Showcased video? Isinona doing FA-off bounty hunting. Last I checked, not the PvE kind.

It's multiplayer. I'ts PvP. And you can go "lalalalala noitisn'tnoitisn'tnoitisn't" all you want.

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When you insult and belittle the men and woman who are working hard on this game...

Insult? I said some of their design decisions are poor. Sorry, but I do not treat game developers as some infallible beings incapable of making a mistake. And criticism is not automatically an insult.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Try a combat zone in Lugh solo then Lugh open, and tell me again the game treats you the same.

Get attacked by a NPCs wing in Open while you are in Wing with some buddys in open and then do it alone in Solo. Which one do you think will be easier?

Open can be harder as Solo yes, but based on circumstance it also can be the exact same or even easier then Solo.

 

[Asp Explorer]

It's multiplayer. It's PvP. Right up until someone decides they want to go Solo for whichever reason they jolly well please - and there is nothing anyone can do about that, as it's a fundamental part of the game lol

 

[Dave1235]

You seem to labor under the impression that I don't enjoy the game. I do. I also think the multiplayer part is poorly designed and executed.

And if I need to explain why, then there is no use explaining. The flaws are that obvious.

Wow if you enjoy this game I would hate to be a member on the forum of a game you don't like!.

Honest question, did you know about solo/groups/open when you bought the game?, I am genuinely interested.

PVP is meant to be "rare & meaningful" to quote DBOBE, once they implement the sticky bounty (if its not already here, I read its close), make anarchy's more dangerous & Fed/Imp systems safer, never played EVE but I read concord? their police I guess, instagank people in safe systems that attack players, I think that might be overkill here but again I am sure FD are not leaving the "police" how they are now, they need refining too.

There was a post a few weeks back by / about a guy who was being a bit of an idiot (or having fun as he saw it), IIRC blowing people up in stations, using chaff & shield cells to last as long as he could just to PK in stations, after abusing it for a while it caught up with him (if the post is genuine), he logged on later & couldn't see any "real targets", he went to a mates house, his mate logged in & saw loads of players, he logged in to his account on the same PC & saw no one, they were in the same system!.

FD have stated there will be a special place for special people in not so many words, I think non consequential PVP will not be with us for ever in the form it is now, apart from the odd RP psycho, the rep system & police response to a mass murder need to work better, and will with time, kill a few clean players in the same (safe) system your rep should go hostile, who is going to turn a blind eye to someone killing members of the pilots federation on their doorstep?.

I am sure player bounty hunters will get decent info on where PK's are (when the PK's are locked into open) and the chance to punish them for their crimes, it was in DDF I think.

I read it was intended that players would be able to post bounty's on the person who killed them & the PK would be stuck in open for a time after. A chance for retribution.

There is a lot to balance & test, we will get to a point where pirates can rob people but if they kill them there will be consequences, bounty hunters can kill pirates without consequences (the sticky wanted status is a step in the right direction) and people that want to PVP can turn off the report crimes function and fight to their hearts content. Killing clean players though will be costly.

TLDR

Patience!, there is a lot to come (I have the feeling you might not like some of it)

 

[Marak]

WOW! - I been off the forums for a couple of months... And this thread is still alive

The only way forced open play could possibly work for most people is if no-one knew who was a player or NPC. That way no-one could be accused of targetting players specifically.

Until of course you killed someone (Msg - You killed CMDR XYZ).. Or they killed you (Msg - you were killed by CMDR XYZ).

Personally - I think this would be great - You never know if that harmless ship you are gonna attack is a player or npc - adds to the excitement...
I remember suggesting this in alpha, but I think it got voted down strongly by the "I want to only fight players" group and the "I don't want to fight players" group.

I'd like the idea of pootling about a combat zone.. killing ships, and then meeting an inferior ship (on paper), piloted by a player that gives me that OH S(not avoiding profanity filter here..) feeling and hands my bottom to me..

 

[Meritz]

Get attacked by a NPCs wing in Open while you are in Wing with some buddys in open and then do it alone in Solo. Which one do you think will be easier?

Open can be harder as Solo yes, but based on circumstance it also can be the exact same or even easier then Solo.

Sorry man, but NPCs are right now a pushover. I have high hopes that they really beef them up, to the point that you don't really notice a difference between an average player and a good NPC. Of course, the realist in me is whispering in ain't gonna happen, but hey - one can hope.

But don't for a moment think that a NPC wing - or two - compare to a player one. Not to mention I'm pretty good at avoiding unwanted attention from enemy wings, and getting shot at by multiple NPC ships is something I experience on a daily basis. Not a big deal, those AI buckets are dumb.

 

[Dave1235]

This forum will go mad (well there will be a few dozen people starting a new thread every 2 minutes at least) when FD bring in some of the next updates that most of us are expecting.

I can see it now "I just killed a clean player for lulz & lost my ship, its so unfair I got ganked by the police, 2 condas, 6 vipers & 6 vultures, this needs fixing right now!", "where you mate, what type of system?, did you kill anyone else there recently?". "It was a safe system with a pop of 25 billion, I should be safe there, there shouldn't be so many security ships there, this game is broken I demand a refund, yeah I killed 6 players last night, what's that got to do with it?, they just need to fix it! or I want my money back!"

 

[Meritz]

Wow if you enjoy this game I would hate to be a member on the forum of a game you don't like!.

Since I don't waste time on hating stuff, there would be very little to see.

Honest question, did you know about solo/groups/open when you bought the game?, I am genuinely interested.

Yes, I did. I'm not the "all or nothing" kind of person. I bought the game because I enjoy space sandboxes - honestly it has great potential for roleplay in the future, which is also something I enjoy.

PVP is meant to be "rare & meaningful" to quote DBOBE, once they implement the sticky bounty (if its not already here, I read its close), make anarchy's more dangerous & Fed/Imp systems safer, never played EVE but I read concord? their police I guess, instagank people in safe systems that attack players, I think that might be overkill here but again I am sure FD are not leaving the "police" how they are now, they need refining too.

Well, as long as piracy is maintained as a viable career choice, bring it on, I'm all for choices and consequences. NPCs need serious buffs anyway, as they present very little challenge unless they sport some ludicrous numerical superiority.
But honestly, you can't dictate how rare PvP is going to be unless you start actively punishing players for PvPing, which would be a very bad move considering the context of the game.

There was a post a few weeks back by / about a guy who was being a bit of an idiot (or having fun as he saw it), IIRC blowing people up in stations, using chaff & shield cells to last as long as he could just to PK in stations, after abusing it for a while it caught up with him (if the post is genuine), he logged on later & couldn't see any "real targets", he went to a mates house, his mate logged in & saw loads of players, he logged in to his account on the same PC & saw no one, they were in the same system!

That was resolved. It was some kind of matchmaking bug. FD stated the player was not and would not be punished for PKing. Which is in my opinion a good move on their part. If they can, they should make stuff like that extremely unviable. For example making station guns immune to chaff. Why not - I imagine they can aim manually.
But if someone wants to play a murderous maniac, let them. But make consequences sting. All ingame. Up to the point of being KOS everywhere but in most lawless, derelict pirate stations in the galaxy.
And of course, always give a way out, even if a very slow one.

Patience!, there is a lot to come (I have the feeling you might not like some of it)

If it is fair, gives us the freedom to choose and demands that we face the consequences of said choices, I will like it.

What do you think I'm arguing for in the first place?

 

[Dave1235]

Unfortunately, I found out about the game when it was already in Premium Beta stage. I backed, but at that time major design discussions were over. I did voice my opinion on the flaws of current multiplayer design before, we had a lot of very long discussions about the subject.

You have to keep in mind that the game, when it was advertised on Kickstarter and during early development, had a very tight-knit and homogenous community, mostly composed of players who naturally were attracted to the initial proposal.

Now, the game is no longer attracting this kind of audience. Both because it is designed to attract players who crave freedom of choice (guess what PvPers like) and due to the marketing of the game. EVERY single official trailer out there shows players competing with each other, violently so. They show PvP action, and that is what is seen.

<snip>.

I also joined at PB, what we have to keep in mind is the fact that without the KS this game would not exist!.

I don't give a flying **** if "the game is no longer attracting this kind of audience", they are obviously still buying the game whatever "type of audience" they are.

I would like to think that most people that own a computer, can download a game & post on a forum would also have the ability to do a little research before they spend their money, it would seem most do but there will always be exceptions.

 

[Dave1235]

This thread is like a bad Aussie (sorry Aussie's) or British/American/South American soap opera, I'm inexplicably drawn to it, even though I know I'm never going hear anything new. I keep expecting CMDR "Dirty Den" or "Angie" to pop up and shout "Rickieeeeeeee" (just goes to show when the last time was I watched "Eastenders"!). I would have thought that if FD were going to get rid of Solo mode it would have happened by now or in Beta stage, however it has not, and they have stated that it's not going to happen, so it looks like you all can continue your arguing just to try and get this thread to make the magic 5000 post figure, or it can finish and then we can await the eagerly anticipated -

The Solo Vs Open thread II - The Open Mode strikes back !

The Solo Vs Open Thread III - Return of the Solo Mode !

The Solo Vs Open Thread IV - The Group Mode Menace !

The Solo Vs Open Thread V - Attack of the NPC's !

The Solo Vs Open Thread VI - Revenge of the Mod's !

I know, I know, there is a seventh movie and the above are not in the correct order, but I have now lost the will to live.

Live long and Prosper, as a well known Vulcan said, whatever Mode you live for!

I would expect:

in 3 months time - "solo vs open, the same old stuff"

in 6 months time "solo vs open "pirates live in anarchys, more traders return to open, but pick their routes carefully (same few dozen people with the same problems)

In 9 months time "Solo vs open, its all working well, looking forward to DLC (same few dozen people with the same problems, shouting louder as they cant PVP easily, unless their prey switches off report crimes against me, and their prey are still refusing to do it).

In 1 year SC gets launched, the ED forums return to a tranquil state, all is well in the world (please launch SC soon, maybe the few dozen will become "the dozen").

I have faith in FD, in my prediction? not so much , I am still a glass half full kinda guy, but I also used google, youtube and all of those other cheat modes to have a look at the game before I bought it.

 

[CHristina]

I'm playing a pirate role for a few days now. I try to hunt commanders who are haulin' rare goods. The thing is, I always send a warning message before Interdiction and after, if succesfull.
When someone decides to cooperate, and this is quite rare, I'll take just a few tons of cargo and leave them be. If they try to run I just collapse their shields and send a hatch breaker. Hatch breakers can be very hungry.
I never kill, and I never damage the ship. I just hope that this dangerous interaction is a little bit of fun for me and a fellow player.
It gets the heart beating.

I undrestand this.. and for a long time have carried ONe cargo pod of gold to drop..( as part of the game, I'm happy to do this..)...but I was blasted from behind, the third or forth shot took out the shields and I was still 'slowing from the drop out of hyperspace.... no message ....just BANG!!
So ,are players hanging around areas where "we" all drop out?.or Is there a random - drop point around the star ? I Ask , because this has happened 3 times now .. at the same system...eemmm.. one next to I bootis,( dam not in game and cant remember ..)

NOt much of a fight from me in a hauler.not a 'bit' of a coward I think....

 

[Walt Kerman]

Get attacked by a NPCs wing in Open while you are in Wing with some buddys in open and then do it alone in Solo. Which one do you think will be easier?

Open can be harder as Solo yes, but based on circumstance it also can be the exact same or even easier then Solo.

Actually, taking on the whole zone solo is more efficient and provides more combat bonds. Split that wing of four up into four groups of one and they will make more per hour than a wing of four.

The NPC's are hardly difficult at all so taking on that wing of four and making money per hour is actually easier by yourself. I had 10 guys running solo at once to push the war effort, it was zzzzz, but at least it was effective. You just resetup my original point.

 

[atak2]

I undrestand this.. and for a long time have carried ONe cargo pod of gold to drop..( as part of the game, I'm happy to do this..)...but I was blasted from behind, the third or forth shot took out the shields and I was still 'slowing from the drop out of hyperspace.... no message ....just BANG!!
So ,are players hanging around areas where "we" all drop out?.or Is there a random - drop point around the star ? I Ask , because this has happened 3 times now .. at the same system...eemmm.. one next to I bootis,( dam not in game and cant remember ..)

NOt much of a fight from me in a hauler.not a 'bit' of a coward I think....

I think your internet connection or computer might be poor. As your loading the instance it might be already loaded for the pirate and they are shooting you before the instance has even loaded for you.

Thats the only thing I can think of for you getting shot while still coming out of the jump.

 

[Simi Kusoni]

But then, I remembered, that is what I love about Space games. Be it Eve, or Elite, no other game seems to be able to match them for that pure adrenalin rush when things appear to be going 'hot'.

The main reason Eve lasted as long as it has is due to them not caving to the demands to make the game safer/more forgiving.

And I say that as someone who, in Eve, would probably be considered an enormous carebear. I took pimp fitted T3s into wormholes, ninja ran 10/10 DeD complexes in other people's null sec territory (I used to pop a cyno to transport my carebearing ships in so this wasn't actually that dangerous) and I even occasionally killed people if I found them running sites that I wanted to run myself.

This kind of danger just doesn't exist in ED. As high sec shows in Eve, no matter how much you nerf solo or buff open certain types of people will never take the plunge. These are the same people that even if they can make enough money to cover any losses and still beat the "safer" option in cr/hour, they still won't switch.

While the option is there, even I do my farming in solo at the moment. Currently just in the hope that eventually this game will get better, and the money accumulated will be useful.

But yeah, I guess my point is that MMOs are competitive. People who farm in open are at a disadvantage to those who farm solo, so nothing will change even if you add "something special".

ED is like Eve in reverse, it's started off as a carebear haven with cries to make the universe less boring. And, like CCP, FDev are ignoring those cries. Should be interesting to see if ED lasts 13 years

 

[Chip Patton]

Hi there, have you been in the open play? I have been in the open play since day one, an do you know what? It is not so scarry to be there, actually.... I'm lucky IF I see a real player at all, because the universe is so big. The few I meet actually is friendly. Think about it.. You fly around in this galaxy with a lot of NPC's... Boring.. and finaly you meet a real player... Is that the first thing you want to do to shoot him down? No actually you want to talk to him, and maybe you get a friend. I have never been shot down by a real player since the release. There are almost non real players.

Actually, I will say that FD must end single and group player mode so we can get more players in to the open world/play. Open play is dead, its nothing, its crap the way it's now... Noboddy to see...

Stop being so afraid, and come in to the open play... I have never met a "griefer" or a "ganker".

Anywhy, who want to shot down a real player, you do not earn any monney on that anywhy.. The stolen gods.. vell you do not get a lot of monney on the black market. IF you are lucky to get some stolen goods, most of it is destroyed when you shoot em up.

I've seen it around trade hubs (near rares), running rare trade runs is near impossible without a wing because you'll immediately be interdicted by a player wing.

I'm not sure where you are in the world, but around the trade hubs is hard not to see a player.

I do agree, at some point they're going to have to give people a really good reason to get out of solo play and group play. The best way they can do that without getting rid of the modes is offer more money (higher percentages) in open-play. It should balance out because if you have a mass of players flooding in to seize the opportunity, there is going to be a lot more deaths, and ship replacements. Also, the rank elite should only be able to be earned in Open Play and one player kill to gain the rank.

 

[Simi Kusoni]

I've seen it around trade hubs (near rares), running rare trade runs is near impossible without a wing because you'll immediately be interdicted by a player wing.

I'm not sure where you are in the world, but around the trade hubs is hard not to see a player.

I do agree, at some point they're going to have to give people a really good reason to get out of solo play and group play. The best way they can do that without getting rid of the modes is offer more money (higher percentages) in open-play. It should balance out because if you have a mass of players flooding in to seize the opportunity, there is going to be a lot more deaths, and ship replacements. Also, the rank elite should only be able to be earned in Open Play and one player kill to gain the rank.

Offering lower money in solo would be better than higher money in open.

Might sound like the same thing, but from a balancing point of view you can't flood a game economy with free money or assets and wealth become meaningless.

Plus, as I said in my above post even offering higher rewards won't shift most people. High sec showed that in Eve.

 

[Lokus Midgard]

They don't really "have to" to do anything. Solo play will probably continue forever, because it's Frontier's only way to compromise on the promised single-player feature.

It's not like people who keep to that mode are impeding on anyone else's entertainment value, anyway. It won't ever matter. Live and let live.

 

[Stewart_]

Wow - the mods must be off the ball - surely this thread should be merged into solo vs open by now?

there is nothing new here that hasn't already been debated before in s vs o.

 

[Simi Kusoni]

They don't really "have to" to do anything. Solo play will probably continue forever, because it's Frontier's only way to compromise on the promised single-player feature.

It's not like people who keep to that mode are impeding on anyone else's entertainment value, anyway. It won't ever matter. Live and let live.

So... This war in Lugh...

I'm sure solo mode has had zero impact on that

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Wow - the mods must be off the ball - surely this thread should be merged into solo vs open by now?

 

[jabberwalkie]

Offering lower money in solo would be better than higher money in open.

Might sound like the same thing, but from a balancing point of view you can't flood a game economy with free money or assets and wealth become meaningless.

Plus, as I said in my above post even offering higher rewards won't shift most people. High sec showed that in Eve.

+1 to this idea.