Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Cathalo]

So, let's look at the balance. Traders really can't efficiently defend themselves - you can't fit a trade vessel for combat, only for evasion. The police forces are a joke. Evading bounty hunters is (apparently) easy. In fact, there's no reason to be a PvP bounty hunter at the moment. About the only thing that's somewhat balancing this out is the fact that trade is incredibly profitable compared to any other profession (when it comes to the trader - pirate balance, assuming the pirate doesn't stupidly demand ALL the cargo and doesn't blow the trader up). All in all, I wouldn't call that balance.

Above all else, I do find the mentality of the pirate a bit worrying. Again, kudos to him for actually being a pirate (get goods, not kills) and not wiping the bounty, but everything about "outside tools" was just on his part - disconnecting from the game is low, but so is finding out online which are popular trade locations, picking only guaranteed fights and cowardly running away with impunity at the slightest hint of any danger...

The irony in this post is simply astounding. Without traders to hunt you will have nobody willing to play pirate, and without pirates you won't have many bounty hunters since they hunt pirates.

It's a vicious cycle. If you want to see a good game balance the only way it will happen is if everyone is forced into open mode. Because currently, the traders are all playing in solo. The pirates are getting frustrated with lack of targets and then they leave the game or make a trader in solo mode, the bounty hunters then get frustrated because they have no pirates to hunt down and they leave the game or go trader in solo mode.

This game cannot function properly without all parties doing their thing in the galaxy. It's very easy to understand, the number of pirates playing will always be somewhat relative to the number of player traders they have to hunt. If the number of player traders goes down then so will the number of pirates. If the number of pirates goes down then so will the number of bounty hunters as they will have less people to hunt down.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

<snip>Above all else, I do find the mentality of the pirate a bit worrying. Again, kudos to him for actually being a pirate (get goods, not kills) and not wiping the bounty, but everything about "outside tools" was just on his part - disconnecting from the game is low, but so is finding out online which are popular trade locations, picking only guaranteed fights and cowardly running away with impunity at the slightest hint of any danger...

Okay - I get where you are coming from. But Piracy is not the worst of PvP that everyone runs away from. In fact, if you were a rw pirate, you would not sail out into the Indian ocean and pick on a frigate. Lunacy. So cowardly? No, that's just sensible Piracy. Anyone who reads these forums knows where the rares are, and if you head towards the well known places that everyone goes to at least once (Earth, Lave, the other empire home world the name of which has slipped my mind) you are going to find the rares. The issue with any criminal activity is the inability to trace such commanders (we need last known locations of bounties back) and the meaninglessness of crime (something that is about to be addressed in part by 'Legacy bounties' - Bounties for PKs will have to be paid off or paid on next death along with insurance.)

Everyone moans. I applaud this pirate! Well done, sir! Piracy is not the reason people switch. It's PKers (Kills for Lulz) that cause people to run.

 

[ianw]

The only new mode that might get introduced is Iron Man mode, which is proposed to be forced open with no switching, and with the added risk of perma-death if you don't launch your escape pod in time.

Sandro, back when this was discussed, was against splintering the player-group and more than that.

There's been no word of it for a while though, except for a "not yet" recently. Not even a "soon" *grins*.

Wasn't there some query about whether ironman was forced open mode? Last time I looked there didn't seem to be a definitive.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

The irony in this post is simply astounding. Without traders to hunt you will have nobody willing to play pirate, and without pirates you won't have many bounty hunters since they hunt pirates.

It's a vicious cycle. If you want to see a good game balance the only way it will happen is if everyone is forced into open mode. Because currently, the traders are all playing in solo. The pirates are getting frustrated with lack of targets and then they leave the game or make a trader in solo mode, the bounty hunters then get frustrated because they have no pirates to hunt down and they leave the game or go trader in solo mode.

This game cannot function properly without all parties doing their thing in the galaxy. It's very easy to understand, the number of pirates playing will always be somewhat relative to the number of player traders they have to hunt. If the number of player traders goes down then so will the number of pirates. If the number of pirates goes down then so will the number of bounty hunters as they will have less people to hunt down.

As said - Piracy is not the problem. PKers (for Lulz) are the problem.

If pirates knew what was good for them, they (and BHs) would hunt down the PKer scum in order to preserve the chain...

 

[Robert Maynard]

The irony in this post is simply astounding. Without traders to hunt you will have nobody willing to play pirate, and without pirates you won't have many bounty hunters since they hunt pirates.

It's a vicious cycle. If you want to see a good game balance the only way it will happen is if everyone is forced into open mode. Because currently, the traders are all playing in solo. The pirates are getting frustrated with lack of targets and then they leave the game or make a trader in solo mode, the bounty hunters then get frustrated because they have no pirates to hunt down and they leave the game or go trader in solo mode.

This game cannot function properly without all parties doing their thing in the galaxy. It's very easy to understand, the number of pirates playing will always be somewhat relative to the number of player traders they have to hunt. If the number of player traders goes down then so will the number of pirates. If the number of pirates goes down then so will the number of bounty hunters as they will have less people to hunt down.

There will always be NPC traders, pirates and bounty hunters - just because players choose not to play a particular role does not mean that players playing a different role that depends on the first role have no targets.

If everyone is forced into open then I would expect that those who trade in a mode other than open may simply change role, move far from the populated areas or stop playing.

The number of player pirates has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of player traders unless those player pirates only pirate other players - in which case, the player pirates have chosen a play-style that depends on others - and those others have the freedom to play the game how they want to (which does not necessitate offering themselves up as prey for players). This is not an eco-system - it's a game.

 

[OldSalt]

The only new mode that might get introduced is Iron Man mode, which is proposed to be forced open with no switching, and with the added risk of perma-death if you don't launch your escape pod in time.

Sandro, back when this was discussed, was against splintering the player-group and more than that.

There's been no word of it for a while though, except for a "not yet" recently. Not even a "soon" *grins*.

Forgive me if I am missing something but if this happens surely it would be an end to all this bitterness ? The 'pro change' supporters can play in an environment secure in the knowledge that anyone they meet could only have got where they were in the same way as them, while the supporters of the original concept can keep on enjoying the game as they have been.

Sounds like a perfect solution to me.

 

[Flying Scorpion]

The biggest issue for me is that players in solo mode or in private group play can affect the influence ratings of my rival factions and be untouchable. I can spend a lot of time working on a faction, only to have it get trolled by players who are in private/solo and I won't be able to do anything about it. If it was open mode, at least I'd have some sort of fighting chance - by actually...y'know...interacting with them directly in space. I could shoot at them, or I could actually SEE them in space and kindly ask them to side with faction x instead of faction y, or I could pay them, or y'know do ANYTHING besides grind till my fingers are numb and hope that I have more time to play than they do.

I wish that solo players got their own version of the universe that has it's own influence ratings, that don't effect those in open play. And vice versa. This is the the same issue for those who want to play solo - they don't want to have to deal with people in open play screwing around with their influence ratings. I say, give the solo/private group players their own copies of the universe with it's own influence ratings, and give those of us who want player-to-player interaction an open world where only those in open play can have any effect on the influence ratings.

 

[ianw]

The irony in this post is simply astounding. Without traders to hunt you will have nobody willing to play pirate, and without pirates you won't have many bounty hunters since they hunt pirates.

It's a vicious cycle. If you want to see a good game balance the only way it will happen is if everyone is forced into open mode. Because currently, the traders are all playing in solo. The pirates are getting frustrated with lack of targets and then they leave the game or make a trader in solo mode, the bounty hunters then get frustrated because they have no pirates to hunt down and they leave the game or go trader in solo mode.

This game cannot function properly without all parties doing their thing in the galaxy. It's very easy to understand, the number of pirates playing will always be somewhat relative to the number of player traders they have to hunt. If the number of player traders goes down then so will the number of pirates. If the number of pirates goes down then so will the number of bounty hunters as they will have less people to hunt down.

Well the bit about traders all playing in solo doesn't ring true to me.

All my trading has been done in open - the routes go through the populated areas and a lot of the player ships I see in supercruise are type 6 - the classic mid-range trader..

 

[Cathalo]

As said - Piracy is not the problem. PKers (for Lulz) are the problem.

If pirates knew what was good for them, they (and BHs) would hunt down the PKer scum in order to preserve the chain...

Pirates don't get paid for hunting Pk'ers, though. That's the bounty hunters job.

Pirates get paid from robbing trade ships, and currently the rate of pay for being a pirate is so low that I have taken to strictly killing every player or NPC that I see. I repair my ship from looting USS's which pay way more per hour than I could ever hope to earn from pirating ships.

Essentially, Pirates are not Pirates in Elite. We are looters and killers.

Here are my thoughts on piracy in this game.

Piracy is broken. Currently there is no rhyme or reason to it, nothing that causes the pirate to actually think. For instance, I can go to a booming system that imports platinum and gold and I will still come across the same ships I would come across in an anarchy system that imports garbage and is on lockdown.

Pirates who put any faith into interdictions are the real fools, because half the time you interdict a trader (be it NPC or PC) they will disappear before you ever arrive in the instance, even worse there are many times where the game bugs out and leaves me in permanent interdiction where I cannot take any actions other than restart my computer. I sold my interdicting device many ages ago, it's basically the most worthless piece of equipment in the game, it's not even useful for completing missions since missions require you to go to USS's.

Currently, pirates have to spend too much time to find targets. Once they find a good target and are able to successfully scan said target, they will then have approximately 60-80 seconds to force the trader to drop the cargo and scoop up the cargo before the system police warp into the sector and run you off. Even if the pirate is able to accomplish this feat, he will then have to sell the cargo at half price since it is now considered illegal.

There is really no point to being a pirate, unless for RP purposes.

Personally, I have taken to being a killer. I just kill every cargo ship or player I see now and I make my money to repair my ship from looting USS"s out of deep space.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

The biggest issue for me is that players in solo mode or in private group play can affect the influence ratings of my rival factions and be untouchable. I can spend a lot of time working on a faction, only to have it get trolled by players who are in private/solo and I won't be able to do anything about it. If it was open mode, at least I'd have some sort of fighting chance - by actually...y'know...interacting with them directly in space. I could shoot at them, or I could actually SEE them in space and kindly ask them to side with faction x instead of faction y, or I could pay them, or y'know do ANYTHING besides grind till my fingers are numb and hope that I have more time to play than they do.

I wish that solo players got their own version of the universe that has it's own influence ratings, that don't effect those in open play. And vice versa. This is the the same issue for those who want to play solo - they don't want to have to deal with people in open play screwing around with their influence ratings. I say, give the solo/private group players their own copies of the universe with it's own influence ratings, and give those of us who want player-to-player interaction an open world where only those in open play can have any effect on the influence ratings.

And who will fund and moderate these multiple copies of these separate universes? How will that fit with a website galnet feed? Why should then each solo player not have his own instance?

There is one universe. Even in Open the chances of you seeing someone else in space who is influencing your faction is vanishingly small is you are doing missions. Consider how long you spend in supercruise to docking in that system against being out at other systems. Never mind the instancing system, matching, people playing in different time zones...

Even if FDev did this, which would be vastly over complicated, the end result is that you would be worrying over nothing. Other people would still be invisible to you.

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Pirates don't get paid for hunting Pk'ers, though. That's the bounty hunters job.

<snip>

Personally, I have taken to being a killer. I just kill every cargo ship or player I see now and I make my money to repair my ship from looting USS"s out of deep space.

Sorry. Excuse me if I smile a little. Did you just contradict yourself???

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Cathalo,

What I think you appear to be saying is that it takes too much skill/time/effort to hunt down the people who are thinning out your quarry for you to be a pirate, so you've joined them cause taking out cargo ships and players is much easier?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Personally, I have taken to being a killer. I just kill every cargo ship or player I see now and I make my money to repair my ship from looting USS"s out of deep space.

as I said in your other post where you said this.

Whilst there are no game mechanics to lock out this "role", The game really needs to come down much harder on you, inc tougher police measures outside of anarchy systems and a more persistent offender state (The pilots federation should not be wiping the slate clean for murdering its members just by a simple 1 off fee).

it is the "killer" role which DB said would actively be discouraged in elite, and is possibly (I have no stats) one of the main reasons why some of the people who play in PvE groups or Solo steer clear of ALL. It is up to pirates, BHers and when possible traders alike to make your kind as public enemy number 1, as you take food even from the mouths of pirates.** You say a pirate cant be a BHer.... why not? They still get a bounty counter for killing a player with a bounty, and in theory, the bounty on a murderer should be good, and the bounty on a genuine pirate not so much so you could pay off your own low bounty off the profits claimed from bagging the murderer. (that is if the 1st part of my hope comes true, that you cant just rinse you murderer status on a whim)

**note I am talking about YOU and your kind from an ingame perspective, I am not making any assumptions about your real life meat suit!

 

[Osito]

Personally, I don't care, as long as you retain the solo mode.

My ideal would be:

1. Additional commander saves for each account.
2. Each commander starts in either open or solo mode (they must choose).
3. Commanders who start in solo mode have to stay there.
4. Commanders who start in open mode, can switch to solo, but they can't switch back to open.

Osito

 

[Cathalo]

And who will fund and moderate these multiple copies of these separate universes? How will that fit with a website galnet feed? Why should then each solo player not have his own instance?

There is one universe. Even in Open the chances of you seeing someone else in space who is influencing your faction is vanishingly small is you are doing missions. Consider how long you spend in supercruise to docking in that system against being out at other systems. Never mind the instancing system, matching, people playing in different time zones...

Even if FDev did this, which would be vastly over complicated, the end result is that you would be worrying over nothing. Other people would still be invisible to you.

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Sorry. Excuse me if I smile a little. Did you just contradict yourself???

No, I didn't. As I told you, I kill literally everyone now since there is no commercial gain for me to play any other role the game advertised to me other than trader. This means that I have a very high bounty on my head right now, and I cannot claim bounties from other players or NPC's until I clear the bounty on my head as well as the fines. Currently I would have to pay 3 million credits just to clear all bounties and fines. So, I cannot make money off this because I literally kill everyone I come across no matter what "law abiding" system I happen to come across.

I'm no longer a pirate, im simply a killer now.

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as I said in your other post where you said this.

Whilst there are no game mechanics to lock out this "role", The game really needs to come down much harder on you, inc tougher police measures outside of anarchy systems and a more persistent offender state (The pilots federation should not be wiping the slate clean for murdering its members just by a simple 1 off fee).

it is the "killer" role which DB said would actively be discouraged in elite, and is possibly (I have no stats) one of the main reasons why some of the people who play in PvE groups or Solo steer clear of ALL. It is up to pirates, BHers and when possible traders alike to make your kind as public enemy number 1, as you take food even from the mouths of pirates.**

**note I am talking about YOU and your kind from an ingame perspective, I am not making any assumptions about your real life meat suit!

Did you not read any of my earlier posts? I don't want to be a killer. I want to be a pirate, but the current mechanics for piracy are broken.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

No, I didn't. As I told you, I kill literally everyone now since there is no commercial gain for me to play any other role the game advertised to me other than trader. This means that I have a very high bounty on my head right now, and I cannot claim bounties from other players or NPC's until I clear the bounty on my head as well as the fines. Currently I would have to pay 3 million credits just to clear all bounties and fines. So, I cannot make money off this because I literally kill everyone I come across no matter what "law abiding" system I happen to come across.

I'm no longer a pirate, im simply a killer now.

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Did you not read any of my earlier posts? I don't want to be a killer. I want to be a pirate, but the current mechanics for piracy are broken.

Okay - understand that. I believe that is something FDev are looking at.

However, I must say, as other's and I have pointed out, in our collective opinion your current style of play is in fact the reason why mode switching is a problem.

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Personally, I don't care, as long as you retain the solo mode.

My ideal would be:

1. Additional commander saves for each account.
2. Each commander starts in either open or solo mode (they must choose).
3. Commanders who start in solo mode have to stay there.
4. Commanders who start in open mode, can switch to solo, but they can't switch back to open.

Osito

Mode switching was provided for very good reasons, not all of which relate to PvP interaction.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Did you not read any of my earlier posts? I don't want to be a killer. I want to be a pirate, but the current mechanics for piracy are broken.

What do broken piracy mechanics have to do with restricting which modes players can play in?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Did you not read any of my earlier posts? I don't want to be a killer. I want to be a pirate, but the current mechanics for piracy are broken.

so piracy is harder than you think it should be, your your solution is to bully other players and ruin their game for them? This is exactly the reason for many people why mode switching has to, and will (I hope) stay

No, sorry I put no weight in that at all, it is imo a poor attitude to take (gank AI all you like but dont mess up real people).

If you think piracy is too hard at the moment, then take that up with FD, but that in no way excuses becoming an ingame murderer, on nor does it change my mind in how I believe the game needs to deal with it. Your actions can cost a player many many hrs to recover from, with very little risk in terms of time loss to yourself (a well fighter craft costs way less to replace than a fully loaded trading ship, and even so, the risks for yourself are practically nill).

With genuine piracy there is a way for a player to minimise the cost.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

It's a vicious cycle. If you want to see a good game balance the only way it will happen is if everyone is forced into open mode.

You can't force anyone into open mode. I would uninstall first, just on principle. I'll bet that I'm far from the only one.

 

[Cathalo]

Okay - understand that. I believe that is something FDev are looking at.

However, I must say, as other's and I have pointed out, in our collective opinion your current style of play is in fact the reason why mode switching is a problem.

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Mode switching was provided for very good reasons, not all of which relate to PvP interaction.

The playstyle that brought me into this game was that of the "pirate". This game advertised this as something a player could do to in an MMO enviornemt. It's not my fault that I come here and act aggressively towards other players in attempt to get their cargo, that is indeed the game developers fault. This is a game mechanic that was supported by the makers themselves. As a player, I come to this game and when I have nothing to pirate and I find out that traders can hide in solo play it sort of sours my experience. Yet I still spent like $70 US dollars on the game.

I want to support this game, but man don't false advertise your ****.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I want to support this game, but man don't false advertise your ****.

Again, your issue if it is with anyone it is with FD, NOT with us, the player base. If I feel I am ripped off in tescos I do not then go around beating up all of the shoppers in the store

PS modeswitching was made clear from the get go.