Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Jockey79]

What long term effects are you talking about? the 7day bounty or the legacy fine that carries over? Those effects can be easily gotten rid of without even needing to wipe your save. I think the new system is going to be more forgiving then the current one.

I thought the legacy one was "permanent" so that the system(s) it is attached to, as it mounts up you pay more (and more and more etc..) until you get to the point you can longer buy equipment due to cost or rebuy your ship for the same reason.
Have I misunderstood or overlooked it?

How/ Why do you think it may be more forgiving?

 

[TruffleSnout]

I thought the legacy one was "permanent" so that the system(s) it is attached to, as it mounts up you pay more (and more and more etc..) until you get to the point you can longer buy equipment due to cost or rebuy your ship for the same reason.
Have I misunderstood or overlooked it?

How/ Why do you think it may be more forgiving?

It's only permanent until you either pay it off in a station, or pay it off as a premium on your rebuy. Once you do either of those, it's wiped.

 

[PhazonAran]

I thought the legacy one was "permanent" so that the system(s) it is attached to, as it mounts up you pay more (and more and more etc..) until you get to the point you can longer buy equipment due to cost or rebuy your ship for the same reason.
Have I misunderstood or overlooked it?

How/ Why do you think it may be more forgiving?

The way I understood it, you pay the legacy fine on death only if you respawn in a station where that fine is valid. Basically, wreak havoc in fed space but make sure the last station you visited did not have a fed faction. Bam, no consequences.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I thought the legacy one was "permanent" so that the system(s) it is attached to, as it mounts up you pay more (and more and more etc..) until you get to the point you can longer buy equipment due to cost or rebuy your ship for the same reason.
Have I misunderstood or overlooked it?

How/ Why do you think it may be more forgiving?

No, the legacy fine will be treated like any other fine. You can pay it off if you want. If you don't, It will be permanent and anytime you commit a crime(in that system) it will be back into your bounty. The only time you have to worry about it messing with your rebuy is, if you have one and respawn in that system, meaning it was the last place you docked. Even then you'll just have to pay it back to get a replacement ship. That is the way bounties and fines work now, so it's not much change.

 

[Jockey79]

The way I understood it, you pay the legacy fine on death only if you respawn in a station where that fine is valid. Basically, wreak havoc in fed space but make sure the last station you visited did not have a fed faction. Bam, no consequences.

No, the legacy fine will be treated like any other fine. You can pay it off if you want. If you don't, anytime you commit a crime(in that system) it will be back into your bounty. The only time you have to worry about it messing with your rebuy is, if you have one and respawn in that system, meaning it was the last place you docked. Even then you'll just have to pay it back to get a replacement ship. That is the way bounties and fines work now, so it's not much change.

Thanks guys - I completely got that update wrong, oh well.
So much for the hopes that 1.3 will balance things out more for everyone.

 

[cryon1cang3l]

But you knew that when you bought the game. So it's a little late to complain about it now isn't it? Just as people who like mode switching bought the game knowing it was possible.

Did anyone who is in favour of locking the modes, explain how this is fair to those who bought this game with that in mind?

Sure they can change the modes. But i expected pure multiplayer would be popular and single & private was more a thing for exploring, playing when you cant proper play multiplayer (you get disturbed, cant talk etc) and for testing. But right now people do anything in solo/private mode.
Yeah i know, i speak for the hardcore PvP people, we prepare to die and to fight, we optimize our gear for this and we practise a lot to actually get better and die less. Most people dont want to spend that much time (and in case of Elite also ingame currency = even more time) to possibly loose it pretty fast.

 

[Javert]

No, the legacy fine will be treated like any other fine. You can pay it off if you want. If you don't, It will be permanent and anytime you commit a crime(in that system) it will be back into your bounty. The only time you have to worry about it messing with your rebuy is, if you have one and respawn in that system, meaning it was the last place you docked. Even then you'll just have to pay it back to get a replacement ship. That is the way bounties and fines work now, so it's not much change.

I don't think the devs ever confirmed the highlighted. In fact, I suspect the legacy fine does not revert back to a bounty even if you commit a further crime. Dormant fines will revert back to bounty. The problem here is that if legacy fines revert back to bounties, I think it can be exploited to quickly double up the money working in partnership with one other player.

 

[Jockey79]

Sure they can change the modes. But i expected pure multiplayer would be popular and single & private was more a thing for exploring, playing when you cant proper play multiplayer (you get disturbed, cant talk etc) and for testing. But right now people do anything in solo/private mode.
Yeah i know, i speak for the hardcore PvP people, we prepare to die and to fight, we optimize our gear for this and we practise a lot to actually get better and die less. Most people dont want to spend that much time (and in case of Elite also ingame currency = even more time) to possibly loose it pretty fast.

To be fair, FD could have cleared up all expectations for the game by now.
While I do keep telling people to research something before buying - I will admit, having to go as far back as the KS and DDA is a "little" over the top.
I didn't do quite THAT much research at first myself. It wasn't until I stumbled upon an argument on these forums over the game being an MMO or not I looked in to it properly.
(I didn't think it should be classed as an MMO, still don't - it meets the definition in a technical sense, but it stops there by any other measure of MMO)

Wouldn't kill them to tidy up the advertisements a bit, to make it more clear what this game actually is. (Plus would save me from having to constantly repost the information for folks who missed it lol)

 

[W0OCQCK]

To be fair, FD could have cleared up all expectations for the game by now.
While I do keep telling people to research something before buying - I will admit, having to go as far back as the KS and DDA is a "little" over the top.
I didn't do quite THAT much research at first myself. It wasn't until I stumbled upon an argument on these forums over the game being an MMO or not I looked in to it properly.
(I didn't think it should be classed as an MMO, still don't - it meets the definition in a technical sense, but it stops there by any other measure of MMO)

Wouldn't kill them to tidy up the advertisements a bit, to make it more clear what this game actually is. (Plus would save me from having to constantly repost the information for folks who missed it lol)

Ya know it's funny, you post the info made available from the DEV logs and official publications. Some here claim that it's not true, LOL. Some here are pretty thick.

 

[Olrik]

PvP-oriented people need a decent player base

If you are looking for decent players to play with,I don't see what's your problem. Well, frankly,I have no idea, I wonder what percentage of total PvP players are hackers /cheaters-but its certainly small.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I don't think the devs ever confirmed the highlighted. In fact, I suspect the legacy fine does not revert back to a bounty even if you commit a further crime. Dormant fines will revert back to bounty. The problem here is that if legacy fines revert back to bounties, I think it can be exploited to quickly double up the money working in partnership with one other player.

You're right, i went back and checked the dev update, there was no mention of legacy fines being added back into bounties. I guess i just assumed they would act like the regular fines we have now. If Legacy fines will never be pooled into new bounties, the system will be wayyyy easier than we have now.

The new system is so worried about stopping people exploiting/selling bounties that it doesnt actually punish criminals.

 

[Kayweg]

There's no point to starting a pvp group, since open already has pvp by default. If FD decided to make an open pve mode, do you think mobius would still exist? It may. but nobody would play in it since they would have their own mode already.

If there was no pvp allowed in open, I'd start my own group in a second.

At first glance, you make an obvious and easily acceptable point there.

On second thought, this could be argued.

We keep calling open, solo and group "game modes", but is that really all they are ?

They are also rule sets, and a private PvP group could apply rules different to those in open play.

No station ramming, no killing other than piracy, bounty hunting, opposing CGs, hostile factions (powerplay).....just to give a few examples.

A PvP (PvP-RP) group like that could possibly draw more people out of solo than the existent "open play" ?

If a group like that could actually draw enough people to make it viable, i don't know.

But i think we shouldn't dismiss the idea of a PvP group outright.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

My supposition on the problem with a consensual full-time pvp private group, is that everyone would sign up to be the pitcher and then moan there were no catchers? :/

 

[cryon1cang3l]

To be fair, FD could have cleared up all expectations for the game by now.
While I do keep telling people to research something before buying - I will admit, having to go as far back as the KS and DDA is a "little" over the top.
I didn't do quite THAT much research at first myself. It wasn't until I stumbled upon an argument on these forums over the game being an MMO or not I looked in to it properly.
(I didn't think it should be classed as an MMO, still don't - it meets the definition in a technical sense, but it stops there by any other measure of MMO)

Wouldn't kill them to tidy up the advertisements a bit, to make it more clear what this game actually is. (Plus would save me from having to constantly repost the information for folks who missed it lol)

Well i waited a long time, till the steam release. And the game wasnt finished, so it is actually an early access title, just dont labeled as such online. We all know the game is not finished and content patches, balancing and bugfixing will come later. Nothing wrong about it. So they add content and my expectation was - more player interaction (it does make sense because its an online multiplayer game, they just have to balance it out with the solo mode so multiplayer will not be way too good or worse than solo), and this means not only enjoy things together, but also fight eachother for different reasons (and roleplaying a psycho is a reason, some people dont even have to roleplay, they are bloodthirsty psychos^^).
The current system makes some things nearly impossible because the solo/private mode is connected to the same universe, so anything that we try to prevent in open, people can still do solo and avoid fighting etc.
Thats great for solo people, they still feel the impact on the universe from both sides, but this is horrible for multiplayer, because every time someone will try to prevent actions and use force, people just can hop into solo mode and still get the job done.

 

[Jockey79]

My supposition on the problem with a consensual full-time pvp private group, is that everyone would sign up to be the pitcher and then moan there were no catchers? :/

I don't think that would be the case, from what I've read in this thread, some guys like having the "pitcher's" throwing their balls at them - apparently some people like to be a "receiver" of said balls

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

At first glance, you make an obvious and easily acceptable point there.

On second thought, this could be argued.

We keep calling open, solo and group "game modes", but is that really all they are ?

They are also rule sets, and a private PvP group could apply rules different to those in open play.

No station ramming, no killing other than piracy, bounty hunting, opposing CGs, hostile factions (powerplay).....just to give a few examples.

A PvP (PvP-RP) group like that could possibly draw more people out of solo than the existent "open play" ?

If a group like that could actually draw enough people to make it viable, i don't know.

But i think we shouldn't dismiss the idea of a PvP group outright.

Mobius has an easy simple rule to follow, no pvp, except in a CZ. There's no grey area, it's nice and clean. how would you decide if someone is roleplaying or not? No attacking and commanders, except piracy, bounty hunting, CG, or powerplay factions. There would be no way of knowing both sides of the story to figure out what happened and if it was legit.

Imagine this, you're driving along squeaky clean, trading, you get pulled over, scanned and then killed. You even have video evidence of it. In mobius he'd be banned no matter what. In the new mode, someone would have to figure out If the guy was a pirate, maybe he was just trying to shoot out your drives but hit your powerplant with a railgun before he sent out the message, maybe you had a bounty, you forgot about, 100ly away, that he was collecting, maybe he was an opposing faction member and you didn't know or see it. It would be too much grey area and rules to wade through. Would pirates be allowed to kill bounty hunters attacking them? would bounty hunters be allowed to kill players who take their kills? So many rules and exceptions it would be impossible to play in. You'd need to consult a rulebook before you do anything.

Also does anyone know how(or if) mobius deals with station rammers? That seems like a gaint can of worms that noone wants to open. It seems pretty straight foward if someone is grinding another person to the wall. what about if someone just boosts through the slot and kills another person on their way out? no way of telling intent from that.

You are right tho, if it was possible to do well(which i dont think it will be) I think it would be a popular group. It would probably be more popular than mobius.

 

[Mobius]

there will always be players that only do pvp, there will always players that just do pve and there will always be solo players. each have their own points and each is valid.
but after posting in this thread a few times it appears that no one will agree with the other regardless of facts, with this I now show you all how I see this thread.

 

[Jockey79]

Mobius has an easy simple rule to follow, no pvp, except in a CZ. There's no grey area, it's nice and clean. how would you decide if someone is roleplaying or not? No attacking and commanders, except piracy, bounty hunting, CG, or powerplay factions. There would be no way of knowing both sides of the story to figure out what happened and if it was legit.

Imagine this, you're driving along trading, you get pulled over, scanned and then killed. You even have video evidence of it. In mobius he'd be banned no matter what. In the new mode, someone would have to figure out If the guy was a pirate, maybe he was just trying to shoot out your drives but hit your powerplant with a railgun before he sent out the message, maybe you had a bounty, you forgot about, 100ly away, that he was collecting, maybe he was an opposing faction member and you didn't know or see it. It would be too much grey area and rules to wade through. Would pirates be allowed to kill bounty hunters attacking them? would bounty hunters be allowed to kill players who take their kills? So many rules and exceptions it would be impossible to play in. You'd need to consult a rulebook before you do anything.

Also does anyone know how(or if) mobius deals with station rammers? That seems like a gaint can of worms that noone wants to open. It seems pretty straight foward if someone is grinding another person to the wall. what about if someone just boosts through the slot and kills another person on their way out? no way of telling intent from that.

You are right tho, if it was possible to do well(which i dont think it will be) I think it would be a popular group. It would probably be more popular than mobius.

I'm on my mobile at the moment, but the Mobius group has a few rules.

The short version is, wheatons law + ask before acting.
And as I've said, when it comes to PvP, consent is the key away from cz.

(there is a full list of rules, this is just a summary in my own words)

 

[Joe Spivey]

there will always be players that only do pvp, there will always players that just do pve and there will always be solo players. each have their own points and each is valid.
but after posting in this thread a few times it appears that no one will agree with the other regardless of facts, with this I now show you all how I see this thread.
http://i.imgur.com/huc8vQT.gif

Nailed it

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I'm on my mobile at the moment, but the Mobius group has a few rules.

The short version is, wheatons law + ask before acting.
And as I've said, when it comes to PvP, consent is the key away from cz.

(there is a full list of rules, this is just a summary in my own words)

Consent isn't really a rule, as much as it's just common sense. Punching someone in the face is illegal, but if you get their permission first, who's going to report you for it? As for the first thing, they just small basic "no griefing rules". no flying in front of someone to cause a FF bounty, no station ramming, no attacking before picking a side in a CZ, no abusive language. Like you said, those are just weatons law rules. They arent exclusive to mobius and would likely be in any group's rules. They werent really important enough to mention since you have to go out of your way to be a jerk and do those.