The Star Citizen Thread V10

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I´m a long time lurker here and just thought MTBFritz post is a good occasion to jump in. I´m a golden ticket holder and following SC since it was first mentioned. Only spend about as much money I spend for Elite yet. I do not think that CR is great help in development but I also think that if he wasnt the man behind I would not get the game I dream about. I dont think that he is doing all that just for the money. He have a dream of a game and is fully dedicated to it. However I take all what the PR machine says not that serious, not jumping on ship sales, just waiting if I can use my two ships in a working/finished game in a (hopefully) not so distant future. Now I want to discuss some of what you have written.

... wrong claims as fact like recently when somebody tried to push the "64bit processing capabilities" down my throat which is inherently false and we know that for some time now, instead there is this mish-mash "64bit positioning grid on a 32bit engine" and its probably the reason for all kinds of problems.
Is that really the case? Some of the game elements are 32 bit and some are 64 bit? Can you pls elaborate? I only can see a 64 bit Star Citizen executive ?


Star Citizen has space legs.
Thats about it. Theres really nothing else there that would distinguish it from other games. And even with this unique quality (not really as unique anymore as it was in 2012) I still have to ask the question "do space legs make this a good game?" because obviously you need a little bit more to get a whole package And it seems that CIG realized that as well and struggles to come up with things to fill out that package. People like to call Star Citizen a "game" and describing what they do as "playing". We all here know that this is just an easy way to handle the discussion without first posting a disclaimer so we are all on the same page. Its just sad when you run into people who really think SC is a game already and can be "played". I never forgot that we are not even in beta yet so how can that be true? Its just one of the many things where fans of the project try to claim achievements and results that simply are not there.
And thats exactly what I like the most about it. I dont know why but I like to be a person in a space game, not only a ship. I just want to play on the ground, boarding my ship, fly it to a station or planet, land there, unload my spacebike for another trip, explore the world. Ultimatively the ship fights in space where one can board another ship, I like the possibilities one have with that. Sure, dont know if we get there to do all that though. Yes, SC sells from the dreams we have. On the other hand I do not know if we get this gameplay from another dev studio. At least CIG (I know you guys more like it so CI-G), in my eyes, try hard to make it true.

I dont really care if CIG tries to create something that has never been done before. What I care about is if they can actually do it. Because the project right now isnt "it" and it looks like they are a loooong way off from "it". Meanwhile the project itself has become so boring for me to watch (because nothing really ever changes apart from details) that I instead watch the community, sitting in various echo chambers never speaking up, observing, sometimes poking and getting entertained by the complexity of human psyche and social interaction. Roadmaps provided by CIG are meaningless seeing how they shift from week to week or can be changed on a whim or even better, never mention the things that the team obviously was working on for some time. All this renders roadmaps pretty much useless when it comes to information or transparecy in the project. CIG statements are hard to understand first of all and again, are simply too unreliable in order to take as facts. Theres a lot of private people who claim to be experts in all things SC but their posts make them appear like fanatics. You really dont have to be a "fan" or supporter of Star Citizen in order to be an expert on this topic yet that seems to the qualifying factor in determining if somebodies contribution is accepted or if hes disregarded as a hater instead.
So it seems you are more a guy who can only have fun with a finished game? I think I have friends who think like you. They once asked me why I play SC, because it´s not finished and full of bugs. For me it`s almost more interesting to try new features in SC then playing another game where I know everything. I do like to play Elite, for me it is a serious game with a realistic galaxy and it has no showstopper bugs (at least a few month back, when I last played it), but SC is the game I badly want to play. The possibilities you have with space legs and this with the great details. I just like to see other players doing their things, fly with them in my ship and can see them there. For me the possibilitie you can walk around in your ship while traveling in space is cool. Again I like it to be a person in that game and can do anything from first person view to flying ships in space. In Elite my player is a ship or an SRV. I do hope for the great next year content.

For me it is an interesting journey ever since we only could visiting our hangars. With every year we got more and more. And meanwhile I can play and enjoy all the other games.
 
I´m a long time lurker here and just thought MTBFritz post is a good occasion to jump in. I´m a golden ticket holder and following SC since it was first mentioned. Only spend about as much money I spend for Elite yet. I do not think that CR is great help in development but I also think that if he wasnt the man behind I would not get the game I dream about. I dont think that he is doing all that just for the money. He have a dream of a game and is fully dedicated to it. However I take all what the PR machine says not that serious, not jumping on ship sales, just waiting if I can use my two ships in a working/finished game in a (hopefully) not so distant future. Now I want to discuss some of what you have written.


Is that really the case? Some of the game elements are 32 bit and some are 64 bit? Can you pls elaborate? I only can see a 64 bit Star Citizen executive ?



And thats exactly what I like the most about it. I dont know why but I like to be a person in a space game, not only a ship. I just want to play on the ground, boarding my ship, fly it to a station or planet, land there, unload my spacebike for another trip, explore the world. Ultimatively the ship fights in space where one can board another ship, I like the possibilities one have with that. Sure, dont know if we get there to do all that though. Yes, SC sells from the dreams we have. On the other hand I do not know if we get this gameplay from another dev studio. At least CIG (I know you guys more like it so CI-G), in my eyes, try hard to make it true.


So it seems you are more a guy who can only have fun with a finished game? I think I have friends who think like you. They once asked me why I play SC, because it´s not finished and full of bugs. For me it`s almost more interesting to try new features in SC then playing another game where I know everything. I do like to play Elite, for me it is a serious game with a realistic galaxy and it has no showstopper bugs (at least a few month back, when I last played it), but SC is the game I badly want to play. The possibilities you have with space legs and this with the great details. I just like to see other players doing their things, fly with them in my ship and can see them there. For me the possibilitie you can walk around in your ship while traveling in space is cool. Again I like it to be a person in that game and can do anything from first person view to flying ships in space. In Elite my player is a ship or an SRV. I do hope for the great next year content.

For me it is an interesting journey ever since we only could visiting our hangars. With every year we got more and more. And meanwhile I can play and enjoy all the other games.
Noooo!

Never, ever, ask MTBFritz to elaborate!

Do you know how many pages of text you're going to get now?!
 
Never, ever, ask MTBFritz to elaborate!

To be fair, my dear Aunt, there is more gameplay, procedural handcrafting, sandwurmies, handbags, lulz and general fun generated by our dear Fritz's posts than anything CI-G have delivered thus far, or likely ever will.

I'm willing to bet cash that he's spent more hours playing Star Citizen than Genuine Roberts ever has :D Fritz can post and elaborate on his actual experiences, whilst Genuine Roberts can merely wave hands, accumulate chins, and deliver zero games, green boxes, or space ship-shaped USB drives :D
 
Cheerio E@gleEye, welcome to the discussion :)

Is that really the case? Some of the game elements are 32 bit and some are 64 bit? Can you pls elaborate? I only can see a 64 bit Star Citizen executive ?
We had this topic some time ago. Cryengine is a 32bit engine. Thats the foundation. Because a 32bit base provides numeric limits regarding size it was rather restricting for a space game with a suggested "massive" gameworld. CIG eventually "hacked" the positioning and increased the numeric values to 64bit. Of course CIGs official statement was so vague and cryptic that the community took it as a "we changed our engine from 32 to 64 bit...horray" which is simply not what happened. We even had a SC dfeveloper in here arguing against the "SC is still 32bit" posts but he made it abundandly clear that even tho SC is indeed still 32 bit, the positioning is in a 64bit format so its a hybrid. The problem is that the rest of the game still calculates with 32bit which is a problem when you provide it with coordinates that are hundreds or thousands of times smaller then the previous minimum.

You fall out of the cockpit and suddenly you are several lightminutes away from where your ship is...is just an example of the consequences you are looking at.

In fact the 64bit coding in the engine has the only task to increase the world size but we can see at the moment that it comes at a price. The engine being unable to track and render everything, attempts to throttle data traffic to prevent server crashing and of course the official acknowledgment that CIG is unable to add new stuff (bascially because the 32bit engine is stretched to its limit already). To be honest, adding a 64bit positioning probably has created more issues then it was worth. But Chris wanted to compete with ED in regards to galaxy-spanning game world. Its not a 64bit engine. And regardless what the launcher exe says (devs could easily name it SC_better_then_64bit.exe but I bet the 64bit is a marker for the windows system) you just need to take a look at the code engine SC is using to see what kind of a bit system it is.Its Cryengine 3.

People like to call it "Star Engine" but we have no knowledge about the modifications CIG managed to work in or what their original deal with Cryengine was, enabling them to do that in the first place. Amazon purchased Cryengine root rights in 2015 for 50-70 million dollars which allows them to change the source code or add all kinds of modifications. Obviously Amazon has more skill in this regard and managed to produce a stable engine with its Lumberyard, which probably is the reason why CIG switched to Lumberyard (without telling its community about it). When people found out the official statement was that it was an easy switch, didnt take much work but also that they talked to Amazon for some time about this already....most transparent project?

Lumberyard also is based on cryengine 3 which explains why the switch was possible in the first place. Instead of "meshing" both engines I do believe that CIG dumped most of its star engine in the process and simply loaded all the assets into lumberyard instead...but again, this is guesswork. Some other folks in here with actual hands-on experience have theorized about what really happened because "simply switching engines" doesnt work or at least is very work-intensive. If CIG indeed managed the switch within 3 days then it must be something else.

In regards to SCs 64bit capabilities look up terms like "world space coordinates" and "edge blending". The operating system underneath is still 32bit.


And thats exactly what I like the most about it.
You and a whole lot of other people. I get it. But just as I said (and what other companies have adressed as well by now) why is this making SC unique? How is NMS different? Doesnt X4 provide everything SC still tries to do? Theres a host of other games which mesh FPS, space legs and space flying together. What makes Star Citizen stand out among the competition except for the drama? Its a great immersion tool, too bad VR is a no-show but again performance-issues and inherent design flaws which are probably created by all the high-polycount and polished assets and of course not having a clear directive and end goal. Star Citizen is basically what I would call a "Blender" in german (Dazzler is the english term I believe). Its created to impress by looks alone and it heavily monetizes that quality by hinting and suggesting that even this early is looks amazing and there is so much more to come. But there really isnt all that much underneath the shiny skin. Or at least nothing that would be extraordinary, groundbreaking or even impressive.

When you say you dont know another company that even attempts this then I would like you to take a look at the games I listed and explain why they dont count?

From my standpoint Star Citizen is running on fumes or better....an illusion. People often admit that they are waiting for all the incredible things to come while they entertain themselves with the current mediocre and tedious gameplay. And I m sure you can convince yourself to overlook certain problems when you are constantly staring at the carrot dangling in front of you. But various red flags indicate that Star Citizen very well might run at 100% capacity already and what we have right now is the absolute best it can provide outside critical changes (like a true engine switch to 64bit for example which would basically "reset" the development).

Other games also come close or even pass SC in various areas. SC fans try to defend their chosen game by bashing other games shortcomings or point out how SC is going "to do everything at once" but they usually word it so that it comes across like it has accomplished that already when in reality Star Citizen is still trying to get there.

Star Citizen exists as this grand idea or "vision" that is very likely years away and people who enjoy it at this very moment probably have a perverted perception of the current PU simply because they look forward so much. So many people who are rooting for SC comtinue to think that it has crushed so many problems already when the best CIG was able to do was to push it ahead or come up with a temporary solution to satisfy fans. The flight model "should" be an absolute critical factor in this game yet in its third iteration its still lacking, doesnt really have any unique attributes and looks more like copy-pasted content from other games. Sure, you can still walk through your ship or go EVA but these are two seperate things and the flight mdoel still isnt any "better" just because you can walk around.


So it seems you are more a guy who can only have fun with a finished game? .
Pretty much yep. I have tried to get into early access or alpha/beta games and I also was highly motivated back then. Finally a chance to bring myself in and maybe shape the game into something I can be proud of. I imagined all the hard work I would be putting in, meticuslously testing stuff for bugs and problems and providing the devs with much needed data to enhance and improve the game. In reality tho being in EA, alpha or beta you pretty much are reduced to being a tester. An unpaid one when you provide the second-most valuable thing you can for free....your time. Your payoff is seeing new advances before anybody else does and occasionally (this is very different from company to company) being able to influence design decisions through a poll or by feedback. The developers "can" provide a lot of info if its a transparent project but thats not Star Citizen (the propaganda videos are not transparency). So you are provided with a new build, run past the problems, glitches and bugs and endure the unrefined state that these games in that stage usually represent. Placeholder graphics, limited world size, disabled mechanics etc. Of course whatever you "achieve" is wiped on the next build. This routine is extremely frustrating for me and I burned out very fast so yeah.....early access or alpha/beta isnt for me.

Star Citizen is a wolf hiding among the sheep in full sight in this regard. Where other alphas/betas usually look like crap or rudimentary Star Citizen looks fantastic. And people pick this up thinking "wow....its only an alpha and it already looks this amazing, imagine how great the end product will be" failing to realize that SCs asset polishing and advertisement is designed that way to invoke this kind of thinking. Its manipulative and its counterproductive to the projects progress rate because so many of the employees are busy adding the shine and gloss instead of creating critical (but boring) foundations. And this line of reasoning and thinking has been demonstrated by CIG since 2013....which makes me think if they ever really tried to do as they say....or if it was simple ego promising the stars and once they realized they cant they just keep going in order to secure the money.

When you say "its intersting to try new features" you should realize that its new features in SC only, its not new features in games overall. But that means that your view on the industry is pretty narrow and tunnelvision like because you fail to realize how much other games are advancing at the same time. Apart from Star Citizens space legs.....what else is that that is "groundbreaking" or even "new"?

Going through stations
Performing pick-up quests
Cave walking
Planetary surfaces
Dogfighting
Multiplayer gameplay

theres a ton of things I could list but they all have one thing in common. They are tried and tested options available in other games already. Often with deeper complexity, more variety and fitting into the game design. Star Citizen resembles a bowl of things thrown together and the "Chris Roberts probably watched the latest game x trailer" is a known meme exactly for that reason. New announcements usually come as a surprise, are often implemented without prior warning or announcement even tho the devs must ve been working on it for some time already (again...transparency)

Star Citizens current state suggests one priority. One constant.

It looks good and thats really its only task as well. To generate interest, to generate that "hope" and start people "dreaming". Regardless what happens...it has to look good. Thats pretty much it. And obviously it works on the current gaming generation too.

Yeah, the flight model isnt too great but it LOOKS so fantastic.
Have you see SC in 4K?

Gameplay is often jerky, stuttering, freezing or suffers from a pretty long list of issues. And what happens? People learn to navigate around those issues, they learn procedures to minimize bugs and glitches. Any kind of negative impression is immediately disregarded or sideline with the internal justification "yeah, its an alpha" or "man, this LOOKS great". And people do this because the issues dont vanish. Bugs and glitches persist through whole versions of the game. People integrate detours into their testing because the game hardly changes or advances anymore and even tho bugs are acknowledged many seem to be ignored seeing as they keep popping up as if nobody adresses them.

For me it is an interesting journey
Me as well :) Its just mostly a constant reminder how to NOT do it for the most part. Star Citizen is known to do things differently and companies trying to pick a new path or untested water isnt uncommon. but usually the results justify the different approach. Some kind of benefit or advantage that negates the risk and additional effort mounted by the company.

Star Citizens track record is 8 years of development, burning through 350+ millions of dollars and its still in alpha. Worse...the unique opportunity in 2012 is already gone as a lot of games try to create what SC tries as well or have even completed their work only to realize the market isnt as big as SCs interest suggested (X4 sales). I havent seen the development "speeding up" or even recognize the foundational quality that would justify that kind of progress history. CIGs first attempts at something are usually lacking, break the existing alpha and cost time and more money so eventually copy mechanics and features from established games just trying to give em a SC spin. It tells me that CIG is pretty clueless for the most part and they are scrambling to come up with new things they can advertise to keep interest and monetary funding. Listening to developers gives me the impression that they dont even know what they are talking about for the most part or people talking about completely different things.

Of course, I dont keep the last awesome 4K resolution screenshot in my mind overlaying all the time which could give this performance or cringe a positive spin.

And of course, regardless how little hope and trust I have in SC and CIG....they still can at any time prove me wrong. But SCs quality comes down to the users patience and understanding, not to the products qualilties which could be tested and evaluated in an indisputable way. It resembles religion by now. Believers resist reality and outside hostility on pure faith, preach their rules to each other to fortify and enforce the gospel and when it gets rough they always summon the endgame, paradise or judgement that will reward the people sticking with it through hardship.

I ve been playing games for a long time now. And I have NEVER seen the level of patience, forgiveness or dedication that is directed at Star Citizen. Its still "only" a video game but obviously many people have lost this distinction and gone full-in making it very much a personal matter which is a mistake....because for CIG its all about the money.
 
I ve been playing games for a long time now. And I have NEVER seen the level of patience, forgiveness or dedication that is directed at Star Citizen.
This is very true from my perspective as well.

They have practically deified CR. HE cannot make mistakes. HE is infalliable. HIS plan is ineffable. Any problems that appear due to others, the GREAT ADVERSARY, GOONS!!!!, HATERS!
 
Lumberyard also is based on cryengine 3 which explains why the switch was possible in the first place. Instead of "meshing" both engines I do believe that CIG dumped most of its star engine in the process and simply loaded all the assets into lumberyard instead...but again, this is guesswork. Some other folks in here with actual hands-on experience have theorized about what really happened because "simply switching engines" doesnt work or at least is very work-intensive. If CIG indeed managed the switch within 3 days then it must be something else.
It's not even a theory — it's been stated outright what happened:

They didn't change the engine.
They only changed the licensor for the engine.

They went from using CryEngine v3.8 © CryTek to using CryEngine v3.8 © Amazon aka Lumberyard v0.0. The only difference is the splash screen and that they got access to modules that interface with AWS (that are wholly unfit for their purposes). Coincidentally, changing the licensor without telling anyone is part of why CryTek is none too pleased with CI¬G, especially since they are now (as many accidental code slips and error messages show) still using the same CryTek-copyrighted CryEngine code rather than anything Amazon-branded.

Star Citizen is a wolf hiding among the sheep in full sight in this regard. Where other alphas/betas usually look like crap or rudimentary Star Citizen looks fantastic. And people pick this up thinking "wow....its only an alpha and it already looks this amazing, imagine how great the end product will be" failing to realize that SCs asset polishing and advertisement is designed that way to invoke this kind of thinking. Its manipulative and its counterproductive to the projects progress rate because so many of the employees are busy adding the shine and gloss instead of creating critical (but boring) foundations.
This bears highlighting and reiterating.

Real game development yields a highly (visually) unimpressive alpha/beta stage because all the effort goes into making a game – into figuring out what it is you even need to show to being with. Visuals come after, and also need that foundation to have a good idea what kind of performance budget they have to play with: how much oomph is required is needed to run the actual gameplay, how much is left to show neat things on-screen, and what does this performance availability translate into in terms of how much you scan show and at what quality. Work on those visuals go on concurrently, but final assembly and polish comes later, and you can figure out exactly what level of detail is even viable.

CIG development, by contrast, does the exact opposite: all effort goes into making impressive visuals. Gameplay comes after, so there is no foundation for those graphics or indeed for anything. None of it serves any defined gamplay purpose – it is only ever there to fool backers into shovelling more cash into the black hole. Greyboxing is only ever used to show “look, we're working on a new ship”, not to test and tweak gameplay (because there is none). So they have no idea of what their performance budget looks like. They slap in a huge amount of assets until the client starts to chug, then use the zero margin left to try to fit in some semblance of gameplay that justifies the existence of those assets, and then have to go back and fix the assets because they don't work. Also, since no effort went into creating that gameplay, it is also broken in every way imaginable and needs to go back and be fixed, at which point it no longer fits in the zero-margin sliver left by the redesigned assets, and we're back on square one with no movement forward. Ever.

This pattern is well established and is also wholly indicative of a development team that has no idea how to develop anything. Consequently…
I havent seen the development "speeding up" or even recognize the foundational quality that would justify that kind of progress history. CIGs first attempts at something are usually lacking, break the existing alpha and cost time and more money so eventually copy mechanics and features from established games just trying to give em a SC spin. It tells me that CIG is pretty clueless for the most part and they are scrambling to come up with new things they can advertise to keep interest and monetary funding. Listening to developers gives me the impression that they dont even know what they are talking about for the most part or people talking about completely different things.
…it is no surprise that any and all of their attempts at delivering anything only ever ends up as pale, uninformed, poorly realised copies of what other games have already perfected, and then sold as “never done before” (because the development leads are as clueless about the state of gaming as they are of the state of modern development practices). Every time they've beaten their chest about how they will do it right unlike those other guys, they have been forced to end up doing it like those other guys (they did it for a very good reason, it turns out) only worse because they had to scramble to get it done, they had to do with with a substandard team on an insufficient time schedule, and they had to squeeze it into a performance gap that didn't exist.

And they constantly have to add on new things to the pile to try to compete with the latest showing from actual game developers or to incorporate the latest cinematic wow-factor that has appeared on the silver screen. This is seemingly the only thing that can ever make a component “be finished:” it is no longer part of the latest attention-grabbing scheme; development ends (rather than being finished); and the whole mess is pushed out to be excused wholesale by the true believers.
 
Cheerio E@gleEye, welcome to the discussion :)
Thank you MTBFritz. And I did know what discussion I would start when asking you. I like your long post because they have substance. And sorry if I not answer right away, English is not my first language and it takes some time for me to built and write sentences. It´s not about to change your all minds about SC but want to know what makes you think about of some aspects.

We had this topic some time ago. Cryengine is a 32bit engine. Thats the foundation. Because a 32bit base provides numeric limits regarding size it was rather restricting for a space game with a suggested "massive" gameworld. CIG eventually "hacked" the positioning and increased the numeric values to 64bit. Of course CIGs official statement was so vague and cryptic that the community took it as a "we changed our engine from 32 to 64 bit...horray" which is simply not what happened. We even had a SC dfeveloper in here arguing against the "SC is still 32bit" posts but he made it abundandly clear that even tho SC is indeed still 32 bit, the positioning is in a 64bit format so its a hybrid. The problem is that the rest of the game still calculates with 32bit which is a problem when you provide it with coordinates that are hundreds or thousands of times smaller then the previous minimum.
In regards to SCs 64bit capabilities look up terms like "world space coordinates" and "edge blending". The operating system underneath is still 32bit.
I just couldnt believe it`s the case, because 64 bit is well established for years now. I guess most gamers have Windows in 64 bit installed now. Even some flight simulations switched to 64 bit only, because they need it. The dev you mentioned is likely Ben Parry, right? He`s post from time to time here and I know he worked at Frontier. I had a quick look on Spectrum and found this: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/are-there-64-bit-floating-point-calculations-in-st
So from his words it does make sense why they use a hybrid, not? I do not get the point why you guys think they do not know what they are doing and why they are doing it? Don´t take that as an offense though. What should they holding back to switch completely if the game would benefit from it?


You and a whole lot of other people. I get it. But just as I said (and what other companies have adressed as well by now) why is this making SC unique? How is NMS different? Doesnt X4 provide everything SC still tries to do? Theres a host of other games which mesh FPS, space legs and space flying together. What makes Star Citizen stand out among the competition except for the drama? Its a great immersion tool, too bad VR is a no-show but again performance-issues and inherent design flaws which are probably created by all the high-polycount and polished assets and of course not having a clear directive and end goal. Star Citizen is basically what I would call a "Blender" in german (Dazzler is the english term I believe). Its created to impress by looks alone and it heavily monetizes that quality by hinting and suggesting that even this early is looks amazing and there is so much more to come. But there really isnt all that much underneath the shiny skin. Or at least nothing that would be extraordinary, groundbreaking or even impressive.
When you say you dont know another company that even attempts this then I would like you to take a look at the games I listed and explain why they dont count?
NMS is great I play(ed) it a lot. But could you meet other players in space? How is the gameplay with other players? Have to admit I never tried MP. So I´m not sure what exactly they added over the last years. But it was not a fullblown MP experience AFAIK. And you can only have other players in the huge fleet carriers I guess, not in a small player ship. Dont have X4 yet, because with all X games you better wait a year or more after release. From the videos I saw it have space legs yes, but what exactly can you do with it? Just wandering around in the stations? Can you EVA and board other ships? Do it have Multiplayer? From what I know it still only have semi multiplayer. It´s certainly not a strong point in X, so I leave it. Never played one of the Planetside games though. Don´t know what is possible there and if you can just take a ship, fly to the next planet, visit the stations there and do stuff. Do you know games where I can do thinks with space legs like I can do it in SC?


From my standpoint Star Citizen is running on fumes or better....an illusion. People often admit that they are waiting for all the incredible things to come while they entertain themselves with the current mediocre and tedious gameplay. And I m sure you can convince yourself to overlook certain problems when you are constantly staring at the carrot dangling in front of you.
I do not overlook problems, I know its full of it and I stumble very often over them. However this isn`t holding me back from playing it. And I do not say other games are bad and SC is the holy grail. I can only hope they will work a stable base out at some time. I understand the point some here mentioned. They try to build a house from the roof and this can`t be right. I take it as it is, trust these guys doing development for a living and know what they do. Though, I feel sorry for the people who backed even with thousands of dollars. Personaly it doesnt hurt me when a full release doesnt see they light of the day.

Other games also come close or even pass SC in various areas. SC fans try to defend their chosen game by bashing other games shortcomings or point out how SC is going "to do everything at once" but they usually word it so that it comes across like it has accomplished that already when in reality Star Citizen is still trying to get there.
I´m certainly not that kind of guy.

Star Citizen exists as this grand idea or "vision" that is very likely years away and people who enjoy it at this very moment probably have a perverted perception of the current PU simply because they look forward so much.
I was sceptical at the beginning of SC announcement and remain like that, because I have an roughly idea whats technical possible. Though the PU is an indicator for what can become true some day. So I certainly try it and can see what is possible now.

The flight model "should" be an absolute critical factor in this game yet in its third iteration its still lacking, doesnt really have any unique attributes and looks more like copy-pasted content from other games. Sure, you can still walk through your ship or go EVA but these are two seperate things and the flight mdoel still isnt any "better" just because you can walk around.
This is certainly an aspect I´m not sure about. I´m not that good in dogfighting in general, not to speak of fighting against other human players, so I just take it as it is. I can control the ship to fly where I want to and can do combat against AI. Just from the feeling I have with it it´s ok for me. It does some weird things from time to time like bouning from a surface while it should be destroyed from it, and some times it gets destroyed. Or these situations where it seems theses ships have no mass at all. When a player or a ground vehicle can push it several meters in the air and so on.


Star Citizen is a wolf hiding among the sheep in full sight in this regard. Where other alphas/betas usually look like crap or rudimentary Star Citizen looks fantastic. And people pick this up thinking "wow....its only an alpha and it already looks this amazing, imagine how great the end product will be" failing to realize that SCs asset polishing and advertisement is designed that way to invoke this kind of thinking. Its manipulative and its counterproductive to the projects progress rate because so many of the employees are busy adding the shine and gloss instead of creating critical (but boring) foundations. And this line of reasoning and thinking has been demonstrated by CIG since 2013....which makes me think if they ever really tried to do as they say....or if it was simple ego promising the stars and once they realized they cant they just keep going in order to secure the money.
Yeah that seems the way to build the house from the roof. Unfortunately many people only want to see great graphics. I guess without the graphics it would not be so successful in funding. One part of me would like to have CIG focusing more on the base functionalities then the next great and shiny ship, the other part though is always eager to have more features. I do hope that they really have the pipelines (yeah I know this have been said by them many times already) in place to just add new stuff we need. Some says they only have the foundation to even add new places since two years or so (with 3.0 I guess).
As I said before I strongly believe in CIG that they want to make that game. It´s only that CR might not be able to handle the money like is needed for such a project. He's lost in his own dreams. But on the other hand I would not have space legs like I have it right now in SC. Believe me or not, I like to load my Cutlass with crates and to see them in the cargo room. I like the detail to see other human players setting up something on Mobiglas.

When you say "its intersting to try new features" you should realize that its new features in SC only, its not new features in games overall. But that means that your view on the industry is pretty narrow and tunnelvision like because you fail to realize how much other games are advancing at the same time. Apart from Star Citizens space legs.....what else is that that is "groundbreaking" or even "new"?
Going through stations
Performing pick-up quests
Cave walking
Planetary surfaces
Dogfighting
Multiplayer gameplay

theres a ton of things I could list but they all have one thing in common. They are tried and tested options available in other games already. Often with deeper complexity, more variety and fitting into the game design. Star Citizen resembles a bowl of things thrown together and the "Chris Roberts probably watched the latest game x trailer" is a known meme exactly for that reason. New announcements usually come as a surprise, are often implemented without prior warning or announcement even tho the devs must ve been working on it for some time already (again...transparency)
Sure, I dont meant new features only SC have, but features I want to try in SC. This is part of the fun for me in SC. Playing new features and to see how they have been done. What games do you mean where I can walk through stations and do cave walking? X4 stations, cave walking in NMS? Form my experience in X-Rebirth station walking was not nearly immersive. Weird looking faces. Dont know how much it improved in the latest X game. Cave walking in NMS also isnt that atmospheric like it is in SC. Dogfighting certainly is more fun in ED. About planet surfaces its again the space legs for me. For example a mission where I need to infiltrate a bunker. I just like it to be able to land my ship nearby the bunker and visit it per foot, maybe need to hide while nearing the entrance because I saw another ship landing there and don`t know what the other player will do when seeing me.
Never played Hellion though, it seems it would fit my likings. What space games to you mean others then these I listed?



Me as well :) Its just mostly a constant reminder how to NOT do it for the most part. Star Citizen is known to do things differently and companies trying to pick a new path or untested water isnt uncommon. but usually the results justify the different approach. Some kind of benefit or advantage that negates the risk and additional effort mounted by the company.
Star Citizens track record is 8 years of development, burning through 350+ millions of dollars and its still in alpha. Worse...the unique opportunity in 2012 is already gone as a lot of games try to create what SC tries as well or have even completed their work only to realize the market isnt as big as SCs interest suggested (X4 sales). I havent seen the development "speeding up" or even recognize the foundational quality that would justify that kind of progress history. CIGs first attempts at something are usually lacking, break the existing alpha and cost time and more money so eventually copy mechanics and features from established games just trying to give em a SC spin. It tells me that CIG is pretty clueless for the most part and they are scrambling to come up with new things they can advertise to keep interest and monetary funding. Listening to developers gives me the impression that they dont even know what they are talking about for the most part or people talking about completely different things.
I also see this and agree on the most part, except the developers give the impression that they dont know what they are talking about. They might have a script proved by CR what they can say. It always have to be positiv and never ever should sound like they could not solve problem xy.


I ve been playing games for a long time now. And I have NEVER seen the level of patience, forgiveness or dedication that is directed at Star Citizen. Its still "only" a video game but obviously many people have lost this distinction and gone full-in making it very much a personal matter which is a mistake....because for CIG its all about the money.
This I can endorse, except the last part again. CIG want to make the dream many gamers have to come true. I dont know why you people think its all about the money for them? In my eyes they "just" fail in use the money wisely. But I do not know how much it needs to have the companies running with developers not be cheap in generall.

Again I hope Frontier will bring something great next year for Elite. It´s very stable and have a solid foundation. For me it´s not comparing these games, but have fun with them.
 
I just couldnt believe it`s the case, because 64 bit is well established for years now. I guess most gamers have Windows in 64 bit installed now. Even some flight simulations switched to 64 bit only, because they need it. (...)
I can answer here. 64 bit precision for floating point calculations is not related to your operating system "64 bit" support. The latter is about memory access, and these 64 bits are for memory addresses.
For the game engines it's about how precise the floating point calculations are, so that's the size of a FP number in bits. The coordinate precision needed for space games and other huge simulated areas (such as in flight sims) will need 64 bits otherwise you'll get "jitter" which means your 3D objects will jump visibly from one coordinate to the other, think of it as how fine the coordinates grid is (more coordinates in a given space = finer "grid").
The issue with CryEngine is it was designed for FPS games, that were at the time similar to Quake or Unreal Tournament. The simulated areas are quite small, and did very well with 32 bit precision. 64 bit was more expensive in CPU or GPU time and not needed, so why bother ?
As a result everything in the CE was using 32 bit precision numbers: objects positioning, physics engine..
What CiG did is modify the coordinate system to support 64 bit precision.
The issue is the rest of the game still is using 32 bit precision, leading to some jittery physics, sudden jumps to other 3D coordinates without reason (like going through walls or floors at times..).. also the engine limitations impose having small "maps" (as in FPS game maps) connected to each other, when you get across the border of these maps you change your relative coordinates, leading to the physics engine throwing a fit. That explains the killer doors and ladders, and the general wonkyness of physics whenever you start going on a ramp or trying to park a vehicle into another...

It's particularly visible using hover vehicles such as the Nox. Try and get through an airlock with one of these and report back :D
 
CIG want to make the dream many gamers have to come true. I dont know why you people think its all about the money for them?
Because the only thing they ever show is the stuff that makes money for them, not anything that would actually constitute progress towards those dreams. See the above issue of developing backwards and the consequences of this wholly incompetent approach.

The reason why people think they don't know what they're doing is that at every opportunity when they talk about anything related to software development, it is almost completely wrong, backwards, uninformed, and in many ways just outright stupid. We have a strong suspicion of why they're doing it, though…
 
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