The Star Citizen Thread V10

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I ve been playing games for a long time now. And I have NEVER seen the level of patience, forgiveness or dedication that is directed at Star Citizen.

This is very true from my perspective as well.

They have practically deified CR. HE cannot make mistakes. HE is infalliable. HIS plan is ineffable. Any problems that appear due to others, the GREAT ADVERSARY, GOONS!!!!, HATERS!
 
Lumberyard also is based on cryengine 3 which explains why the switch was possible in the first place. Instead of "meshing" both engines I do believe that CIG dumped most of its star engine in the process and simply loaded all the assets into lumberyard instead...but again, this is guesswork. Some other folks in here with actual hands-on experience have theorized about what really happened because "simply switching engines" doesnt work or at least is very work-intensive. If CIG indeed managed the switch within 3 days then it must be something else.
It's not even a theory — it's been stated outright what happened:

They didn't change the engine.
They only changed the licensor for the engine.

They went from using CryEngine v3.8 © CryTek to using CryEngine v3.8 © Amazon aka Lumberyard v0.0. The only difference is the splash screen and that they got access to modules that interface with AWS (that are wholly unfit for their purposes). Coincidentally, changing the licensor without telling anyone is part of why CryTek is none too pleased with CI¬G, especially since they are now (as many accidental code slips and error messages show) still using the same CryTek-copyrighted CryEngine code rather than anything Amazon-branded.

Star Citizen is a wolf hiding among the sheep in full sight in this regard. Where other alphas/betas usually look like crap or rudimentary Star Citizen looks fantastic. And people pick this up thinking "wow....its only an alpha and it already looks this amazing, imagine how great the end product will be" failing to realize that SCs asset polishing and advertisement is designed that way to invoke this kind of thinking. Its manipulative and its counterproductive to the projects progress rate because so many of the employees are busy adding the shine and gloss instead of creating critical (but boring) foundations.
This bears highlighting and reiterating.

Real game development yields a highly (visually) unimpressive alpha/beta stage because all the effort goes into making a game – into figuring out what it is you even need to show to being with. Visuals come after, and also need that foundation to have a good idea what kind of performance budget they have to play with: how much oomph is required is needed to run the actual gameplay, how much is left to show neat things on-screen, and what does this performance availability translate into in terms of how much you scan show and at what quality. Work on those visuals go on concurrently, but final assembly and polish comes later, and you can figure out exactly what level of detail is even viable.

CIG development, by contrast, does the exact opposite: all effort goes into making impressive visuals. Gameplay comes after, so there is no foundation for those graphics or indeed for anything. None of it serves any defined gamplay purpose – it is only ever there to fool backers into shovelling more cash into the black hole. Greyboxing is only ever used to show “look, we're working on a new ship”, not to test and tweak gameplay (because there is none). So they have no idea of what their performance budget looks like. They slap in a huge amount of assets until the client starts to chug, then use the zero margin left to try to fit in some semblance of gameplay that justifies the existence of those assets, and then have to go back and fix the assets because they don't work. Also, since no effort went into creating that gameplay, it is also broken in every way imaginable and needs to go back and be fixed, at which point it no longer fits in the zero-margin sliver left by the redesigned assets, and we're back on square one with no movement forward. Ever.

This pattern is well established and is also wholly indicative of a development team that has no idea how to develop anything. Consequently…
I havent seen the development "speeding up" or even recognize the foundational quality that would justify that kind of progress history. CIGs first attempts at something are usually lacking, break the existing alpha and cost time and more money so eventually copy mechanics and features from established games just trying to give em a SC spin. It tells me that CIG is pretty clueless for the most part and they are scrambling to come up with new things they can advertise to keep interest and monetary funding. Listening to developers gives me the impression that they dont even know what they are talking about for the most part or people talking about completely different things.
…it is no surprise that any and all of their attempts at delivering anything only ever ends up as pale, uninformed, poorly realised copies of what other games have already perfected, and then sold as “never done before” (because the development leads are as clueless about the state of gaming as they are of the state of modern development practices). Every time they've beaten their chest about how they will do it right unlike those other guys, they have been forced to end up doing it like those other guys (they did it for a very good reason, it turns out) only worse because they had to scramble to get it done, they had to do with with a substandard team on an insufficient time schedule, and they had to squeeze it into a performance gap that didn't exist.

And they constantly have to add on new things to the pile to try to compete with the latest showing from actual game developers or to incorporate the latest cinematic wow-factor that has appeared on the silver screen. This is seemingly the only thing that can ever make a component “be finished:” it is no longer part of the latest attention-grabbing scheme; development ends (rather than being finished); and the whole mess is pushed out to be excused wholesale by the true believers.
 
Cheerio E@gleEye, welcome to the discussion :)
Thank you MTBFritz. And I did know what discussion I would start when asking you. I like your long post because they have substance. And sorry if I not answer right away, English is not my first language and it takes some time for me to built and write sentences. It´s not about to change your all minds about SC but want to know what makes you think about of some aspects.

We had this topic some time ago. Cryengine is a 32bit engine. Thats the foundation. Because a 32bit base provides numeric limits regarding size it was rather restricting for a space game with a suggested "massive" gameworld. CIG eventually "hacked" the positioning and increased the numeric values to 64bit. Of course CIGs official statement was so vague and cryptic that the community took it as a "we changed our engine from 32 to 64 bit...horray" which is simply not what happened. We even had a SC dfeveloper in here arguing against the "SC is still 32bit" posts but he made it abundandly clear that even tho SC is indeed still 32 bit, the positioning is in a 64bit format so its a hybrid. The problem is that the rest of the game still calculates with 32bit which is a problem when you provide it with coordinates that are hundreds or thousands of times smaller then the previous minimum.
In regards to SCs 64bit capabilities look up terms like "world space coordinates" and "edge blending". The operating system underneath is still 32bit.
I just couldnt believe it`s the case, because 64 bit is well established for years now. I guess most gamers have Windows in 64 bit installed now. Even some flight simulations switched to 64 bit only, because they need it. The dev you mentioned is likely Ben Parry, right? He`s post from time to time here and I know he worked at Frontier. I had a quick look on Spectrum and found this: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...here-64-bit-floating-point-calculations-in-st
So from his words it does make sense why they use a hybrid, not? I do not get the point why you guys think they do not know what they are doing and why they are doing it? Don´t take that as an offense though. What should they holding back to switch completely if the game would benefit from it?


You and a whole lot of other people. I get it. But just as I said (and what other companies have adressed as well by now) why is this making SC unique? How is NMS different? Doesnt X4 provide everything SC still tries to do? Theres a host of other games which mesh FPS, space legs and space flying together. What makes Star Citizen stand out among the competition except for the drama? Its a great immersion tool, too bad VR is a no-show but again performance-issues and inherent design flaws which are probably created by all the high-polycount and polished assets and of course not having a clear directive and end goal. Star Citizen is basically what I would call a "Blender" in german (Dazzler is the english term I believe). Its created to impress by looks alone and it heavily monetizes that quality by hinting and suggesting that even this early is looks amazing and there is so much more to come. But there really isnt all that much underneath the shiny skin. Or at least nothing that would be extraordinary, groundbreaking or even impressive.
When you say you dont know another company that even attempts this then I would like you to take a look at the games I listed and explain why they dont count?
NMS is great I play(ed) it a lot. But could you meet other players in space? How is the gameplay with other players? Have to admit I never tried MP. So I´m not sure what exactly they added over the last years. But it was not a fullblown MP experience AFAIK. And you can only have other players in the huge fleet carriers I guess, not in a small player ship. Dont have X4 yet, because with all X games you better wait a year or more after release. From the videos I saw it have space legs yes, but what exactly can you do with it? Just wandering around in the stations? Can you EVA and board other ships? Do it have Multiplayer? From what I know it still only have semi multiplayer. It´s certainly not a strong point in X, so I leave it. Never played one of the Planetside games though. Don´t know what is possible there and if you can just take a ship, fly to the next planet, visit the stations there and do stuff. Do you know games where I can do thinks with space legs like I can do it in SC?


From my standpoint Star Citizen is running on fumes or better....an illusion. People often admit that they are waiting for all the incredible things to come while they entertain themselves with the current mediocre and tedious gameplay. And I m sure you can convince yourself to overlook certain problems when you are constantly staring at the carrot dangling in front of you.
I do not overlook problems, I know its full of it and I stumble very often over them. However this isn`t holding me back from playing it. And I do not say other games are bad and SC is the holy grail. I can only hope they will work a stable base out at some time. I understand the point some here mentioned. They try to build a house from the roof and this can`t be right. I take it as it is, trust these guys doing development for a living and know what they do. Though, I feel sorry for the people who backed even with thousands of dollars. Personaly it doesnt hurt me when a full release doesnt see they light of the day.

Other games also come close or even pass SC in various areas. SC fans try to defend their chosen game by bashing other games shortcomings or point out how SC is going "to do everything at once" but they usually word it so that it comes across like it has accomplished that already when in reality Star Citizen is still trying to get there.
I´m certainly not that kind of guy.

Star Citizen exists as this grand idea or "vision" that is very likely years away and people who enjoy it at this very moment probably have a perverted perception of the current PU simply because they look forward so much.
I was sceptical at the beginning of SC announcement and remain like that, because I have an roughly idea whats technical possible. Though the PU is an indicator for what can become true some day. So I certainly try it and can see what is possible now.

The flight model "should" be an absolute critical factor in this game yet in its third iteration its still lacking, doesnt really have any unique attributes and looks more like copy-pasted content from other games. Sure, you can still walk through your ship or go EVA but these are two seperate things and the flight mdoel still isnt any "better" just because you can walk around.
This is certainly an aspect I´m not sure about. I´m not that good in dogfighting in general, not to speak of fighting against other human players, so I just take it as it is. I can control the ship to fly where I want to and can do combat against AI. Just from the feeling I have with it it´s ok for me. It does some weird things from time to time like bouning from a surface while it should be destroyed from it, and some times it gets destroyed. Or these situations where it seems theses ships have no mass at all. When a player or a ground vehicle can push it several meters in the air and so on.


Star Citizen is a wolf hiding among the sheep in full sight in this regard. Where other alphas/betas usually look like crap or rudimentary Star Citizen looks fantastic. And people pick this up thinking "wow....its only an alpha and it already looks this amazing, imagine how great the end product will be" failing to realize that SCs asset polishing and advertisement is designed that way to invoke this kind of thinking. Its manipulative and its counterproductive to the projects progress rate because so many of the employees are busy adding the shine and gloss instead of creating critical (but boring) foundations. And this line of reasoning and thinking has been demonstrated by CIG since 2013....which makes me think if they ever really tried to do as they say....or if it was simple ego promising the stars and once they realized they cant they just keep going in order to secure the money.
Yeah that seems the way to build the house from the roof. Unfortunately many people only want to see great graphics. I guess without the graphics it would not be so successful in funding. One part of me would like to have CIG focusing more on the base functionalities then the next great and shiny ship, the other part though is always eager to have more features. I do hope that they really have the pipelines (yeah I know this have been said by them many times already) in place to just add new stuff we need. Some says they only have the foundation to even add new places since two years or so (with 3.0 I guess).
As I said before I strongly believe in CIG that they want to make that game. It´s only that CR might not be able to handle the money like is needed for such a project. He's lost in his own dreams. But on the other hand I would not have space legs like I have it right now in SC. Believe me or not, I like to load my Cutlass with crates and to see them in the cargo room. I like the detail to see other human players setting up something on Mobiglas.

When you say "its intersting to try new features" you should realize that its new features in SC only, its not new features in games overall. But that means that your view on the industry is pretty narrow and tunnelvision like because you fail to realize how much other games are advancing at the same time. Apart from Star Citizens space legs.....what else is that that is "groundbreaking" or even "new"?
Going through stations
Performing pick-up quests
Cave walking
Planetary surfaces
Dogfighting
Multiplayer gameplay

theres a ton of things I could list but they all have one thing in common. They are tried and tested options available in other games already. Often with deeper complexity, more variety and fitting into the game design. Star Citizen resembles a bowl of things thrown together and the "Chris Roberts probably watched the latest game x trailer" is a known meme exactly for that reason. New announcements usually come as a surprise, are often implemented without prior warning or announcement even tho the devs must ve been working on it for some time already (again...transparency)
Sure, I dont meant new features only SC have, but features I want to try in SC. This is part of the fun for me in SC. Playing new features and to see how they have been done. What games do you mean where I can walk through stations and do cave walking? X4 stations, cave walking in NMS? Form my experience in X-Rebirth station walking was not nearly immersive. Weird looking faces. Dont know how much it improved in the latest X game. Cave walking in NMS also isnt that atmospheric like it is in SC. Dogfighting certainly is more fun in ED. About planet surfaces its again the space legs for me. For example a mission where I need to infiltrate a bunker. I just like it to be able to land my ship nearby the bunker and visit it per foot, maybe need to hide while nearing the entrance because I saw another ship landing there and don`t know what the other player will do when seeing me.
Never played Hellion though, it seems it would fit my likings. What space games to you mean others then these I listed?



Me as well :) Its just mostly a constant reminder how to NOT do it for the most part. Star Citizen is known to do things differently and companies trying to pick a new path or untested water isnt uncommon. but usually the results justify the different approach. Some kind of benefit or advantage that negates the risk and additional effort mounted by the company.
Star Citizens track record is 8 years of development, burning through 350+ millions of dollars and its still in alpha. Worse...the unique opportunity in 2012 is already gone as a lot of games try to create what SC tries as well or have even completed their work only to realize the market isnt as big as SCs interest suggested (X4 sales). I havent seen the development "speeding up" or even recognize the foundational quality that would justify that kind of progress history. CIGs first attempts at something are usually lacking, break the existing alpha and cost time and more money so eventually copy mechanics and features from established games just trying to give em a SC spin. It tells me that CIG is pretty clueless for the most part and they are scrambling to come up with new things they can advertise to keep interest and monetary funding. Listening to developers gives me the impression that they dont even know what they are talking about for the most part or people talking about completely different things.
I also see this and agree on the most part, except the developers give the impression that they dont know what they are talking about. They might have a script proved by CR what they can say. It always have to be positiv and never ever should sound like they could not solve problem xy.


I ve been playing games for a long time now. And I have NEVER seen the level of patience, forgiveness or dedication that is directed at Star Citizen. Its still "only" a video game but obviously many people have lost this distinction and gone full-in making it very much a personal matter which is a mistake....because for CIG its all about the money.
This I can endorse, except the last part again. CIG want to make the dream many gamers have to come true. I dont know why you people think its all about the money for them? In my eyes they "just" fail in use the money wisely. But I do not know how much it needs to have the companies running with developers not be cheap in generall.

Again I hope Frontier will bring something great next year for Elite. It´s very stable and have a solid foundation. For me it´s not comparing these games, but have fun with them.
 
I just couldnt believe it`s the case, because 64 bit is well established for years now. I guess most gamers have Windows in 64 bit installed now. Even some flight simulations switched to 64 bit only, because they need it. (...)
I can answer here. 64 bit precision for floating point calculations is not related to your operating system "64 bit" support. The latter is about memory access, and these 64 bits are for memory addresses.
For the game engines it's about how precise the floating point calculations are, so that's the size of a FP number in bits. The coordinate precision needed for space games and other huge simulated areas (such as in flight sims) will need 64 bits otherwise you'll get "jitter" which means your 3D objects will jump visibly from one coordinate to the other, think of it as how fine the coordinates grid is (more coordinates in a given space = finer "grid").
The issue with CryEngine is it was designed for FPS games, that were at the time similar to Quake or Unreal Tournament. The simulated areas are quite small, and did very well with 32 bit precision. 64 bit was more expensive in CPU or GPU time and not needed, so why bother ?
As a result everything in the CE was using 32 bit precision numbers: objects positioning, physics engine..
What CiG did is modify the coordinate system to support 64 bit precision.
The issue is the rest of the game still is using 32 bit precision, leading to some jittery physics, sudden jumps to other 3D coordinates without reason (like going through walls or floors at times..).. also the engine limitations impose having small "maps" (as in FPS game maps) connected to each other, when you get across the border of these maps you change your relative coordinates, leading to the physics engine throwing a fit. That explains the killer doors and ladders, and the general wonkyness of physics whenever you start going on a ramp or trying to park a vehicle into another...

It's particularly visible using hover vehicles such as the Nox. Try and get through an airlock with one of these and report back :D
 
CIG want to make the dream many gamers have to come true. I dont know why you people think its all about the money for them?
Because the only thing they ever show is the stuff that makes money for them, not anything that would actually constitute progress towards those dreams. See the above issue of developing backwards and the consequences of this wholly incompetent approach.

The reason why people think they don't know what they're doing is that at every opportunity when they talk about anything related to software development, it is almost completely wrong, backwards, uninformed, and in many ways just outright stupid. We have a strong suspicion of why they're doing it, though…
 
The issue with CryEngine is it was designed for FPS games, that were at the time similar to Quake or Unreal Tournament. The simulated areas are quite small, and did very well with 32 bit precision. 64 bit was more expensive in CPU or GPU time and not needed, so why bother ?

Also to specify, the 32-bit limit is kinda big if your game can work with it - Minecraft runs on 32-bit worlds (even though it can use 64-bit Java, similar to SC using 64-bit stuff "just somewhere"), but the fact that one bit is one meter makes it really, really big, even considering that some inaccuracies start appearing even before you reach the limit. And this effect can be noticed really, really fast, in Minecraft at ~16k away from the start (just a refresher, the 32-bit limit is about 2 billion).

Of course FPS games can't allow for precision of 1 meter, so they are ~100 times more precise - but that shortens the distance to first rounding errors.

But alas, that's kinda not enough for a space game... >.>
 
Amusingly - there is more gameplay to be had in 8 bits than Star Citizen could ever hope to imagine.

Tau Ceti anyone?

The 8 bit parallel which Star Citizen most calls to mind is Legend's The Great Space Race:

Pre-release publicity boasted that the game contained "technical effects never before seen in home computer software", with "true solid 3D graphics".[2] The game was actually coded largely in BASIC.
source

And now I'm off to play a bit of Carrier Command.
 
The 8 bit parallel which Star Citizen most calls to mind is Legend's The Great Space Race:

source

And now I'm off to play a bit of Carrier Command.

I offer you the homey handshake of "old farts who still play games" - I'm almost amazed someone else remembers the Great Space Race & i'd draw the same parallel.

My thinking with SC is that if they don't release it soon the earliest work will be so far out-of-date they'll have to do it again. And so it continues....

CC is probably my second favourite game of all time, after Elite.
 
My thinking with SC is that if they don't release it soon the earliest work will be so far out-of-date they'll have to do it again.

We're well beyond that point already, and have been since about 2016. Not just because the earlier stuff looks awful by today's standards (eg the excruciating Morrow Tour and Bishop's Speech videos), or because other developers insist on moving the technology forward and releasing more advanced games while CIG keeps hacking away at an 8 year old engine, but the cart-before-the-horse development strategy means CIG is constantly having to re-work old assets to make them compatible with v2.0 (or 3.0 or whatever) of various underlying systems.

If Squadron 42 ever appears, it will likely consist entirely of stuff that was done in the 18 months to 2 years leading up to release, just like we've seen with games like Mass Affect Andromeda and Anthem. The amount of wasted time and effort (and money) will have been colossal.
 
CC had open-ended gameplay within the limits of the "engine" which lead to all sorts of lulz. Want to drone ram and virus bomb the Omega to death? Ever killed a Marauder with an IR flare? Command all units to ramming speed for a game win? You can certainly do that in-game.

In SC it's kind of the exact opposite - there's things you can do, and vainly hope to make a game out of it in desperation.
 
Amusingly - there is more gameplay to be had in 8 bits than Star Citizen could ever hope to imagine.

Tau Ceti anyone?

Back in the day, Starflight had:
  • Customizable ships
  • Alien encounters
  • Exploration
  • Planetary landings
  • Ship-to-ship combat
  • An actual story
  • Salvage
  • Trading
  • Full star systems
Maybe Chris could study what made that game great, even if it was published by EA.
 
okay you guys. This started out as a "quick sunday post" and has turned into an extensive wall of text. It made me feel bad so I m putting it in spolers. Feel free to ignore, I know my wife looked over my shoulder and expressed a bad word in shock and surprise so I guess spoiler tags are warranted :)

This is mostly a response to E@gleEye but dude, I want to assure you that regardless how "empathic" I might come across I dont intend to question or attack you in any way. It probably would be better if we took this to PMs too but hell, I already put in the work so I thought a last "hail glory" ^^

It´s not about to change your all minds about SC but want to know what makes you think about of some aspects.

Changing minds at this point is CIGs job frankly. The community is left with comparing perceptions especially because the project is so untransparent. Some people can "see it", others cant and thats not due to verifiable facts. It would be pretty hard to argue established facts but almost every single aspect in SC is hidden behind vague descriptions, half-truths and the shiny graphic. Personally I would like to see people of different opinion act a bit more mature or treat each other politely over something they disagree with. But the pro SC fan base at large has demonstrated countless times that finding people like that is a rare occurance and before somebody points out that the critics are just as bad here is another golden oldie from the german language

"Wie man in den Wald hineinruft so schallt es heraus"

An old farmers wisdom roughly translated to "as the question,so the answer" or "what goes around comes around" or "you made your bed, now sleep in it"

Derek Smarts investment in this project after all these years is proof for that. But theres a lot of other people who also became disenchanted with Star Citizen after years of waiting or lack of progress and whoever dared to speak his mind was given the rough treatment to a degree where said person stuck around simply to return the favor. Myself I walk away from past projects of interest which prove to not be able to deliver what they promised and Star Citizen certainly falls into this category. I have never in my life tho been met with such open hostility or outright rage over something mundane like a video game. People behave as if I offended their mother or did them personal harm and things quickly degenerate into an open hate argument where trying to see the others side is of no importance anymore but the objective is simply to "shut them up". Bullying tactics, open verbal abuse, personal attacks, disregard and deflection....observed from a distance the SC community is pulling all registers with the goal to silence critical voices...it would be so easy to simply point out wrong perceptions or list facts that support SCs case but of course this isnt possible because as I left...SCs quality come down to individual perception....the facts all look pretty bleak.

And because the truth doesnt matter anymore and the project "must be protected at all costs" fans have begun to assault simple facts as well because they look so bad on their own.

Development start 2011/2012 - wrong, development started for real in 2016 because reasons
The reported number of backers is presented as individuals when we know by now that it only represents accounts, not people - argued to this day

You get the drift. Also....whenever I dare to ask questions or point out negative things about SC in less protected places I immediately are questioned for sanity or stupidity. People disregard me as a clueless kid, a hater, a troll or as even tho they know nothing about me in the first place and my initial post wouldnt warrant such a reponse. This isnt a community Star Citizen "should" foster and grow yet in this case....CIG uses this toxicity as a first line of defense to continue what they are doing while their loyal fans keep up the fight allowing them to go for more months undisturbed.

And most of them are impossible to talk to. Whenever I think "this could be just a misunderstanding" I usually go out of my way to explain myself in more detail or reassure the other person that I didnt try to attack them personally but most of the time I get laughed at or the reply is a verbal "spit to the face"...in short....its pure hate,

Yet people call ME a "hater". The irony is pretty strong.


I just couldnt believe it`s the case, because 64 bit is well established for years now. I guess most gamers have Windows in 64 bit installed now

Well....Cryengine 3 was almost outdated in 2012 already but it still was able to produce nice pictures on par with the Unreal engine (Unreal being more powerful of course but it didnt come as cheap, Crytek cut CIG a pretty sweet deal, no wonder they are in court now). Experts on that topic stated from the start tho that the performance and visual asthetik would only be possible small scale and for SC that certainly holds true. Mini-map areas (ships, stations, caves) look awesome but overall the whole thing is pretty empty, bland and doesnt convince in any other aspect then "space is big and empty".

CIG showed footage of vast vistas and Chris is on record claiming that "everything you see is simulated in detail and is actually there, you can go there right now" when in reality it was textures and background statics....outside the map boundaries placed to look pretty (theres a term for it but I cant remember or find it /sigh). Its these things that usually stick in my head. CIGs readiness and willingness to advertise their product in a misleading and borderline deceptive way.

"Awww cut the guy some slack" doesnt apply here, this isnt an Indi developer working under constant pressure and lifting this thing on his own or in a small team. Chris Roberts has become a millionaire not by performance or delivery of quality but by "trying his best" yet SC isnt a reality and has yet to prove its capacity large scale.

And even tho this is just one occurance here and there it all adds up over time and after 8 years of following this project pretty closely my internal database of things being "off" or examples where CIG was proven to be wrong or lying is pretty immense to a degree where my whole perception of the project shifts to being a gigantic scam....run by CIG and protected by its fans, the abused being used as cannon fodder and first responders when it comes to answering questions that are uncomfortable.

It doesnt happen "here" anymore basically we have so many experts on things I am clueless about that I dont need to be good at everything to prove something. But go to a random comment section or Youtube and you are challenged with lies and misinterpretations that are established as such for years already. Using them in the first place indicates that you either "dont know" or you "use them despite knowing" yep people call ME clueless or worse.

Some defenders paint a picture about Star Citizen that would make me question my sanity if they were true because "one of us must be wrong".

That is the fundamental base of an argument as long as we dont discuss opinions. We all have one and when it comes to SCs capabilities or actual state opinions are pretty meaningless to be frank. We are taclking about technical performance limits, actual performance data and of course the technical foundation that is used to create a game of this scope. Opinion doesnt even come into the equation here.

"I like what I see" is really meaningless when it comes to evaluating Star Citizen as a game. Yet its pretty much the only remaining defense argument these days and its used to overlay all the ugly bits as well.

"I like Star Citizen so I m sure everything else is good as well"
"The planets look so nice, SCs procgen technology is more powerful and refined then other games"
"Star Citizen gives me such great immersion, flying around is more fun then in ED"

So a simple impression is used to justify everything. Basically people who "like" Star Citizen are often blind to red flags or problems because they dont "want" to see them. And because they are unable to transport that impression in an argument (because its an impression doh) or fail to come up with actual facts that would support that impression arguments with SC devotees usually goes the way we can observe.

  • Tries to cram made up stuff and opinons down your throat as facts
  • becomes agitated when you refuse these things or come up with counter arguments
  • best case scenario you are being ignored from that point forward
  • usually personal abuse starts about now, the moment people figure out you cannot be dazzled or have actual knowledge and still are critical of the project

NMS is great I play(ed) it a lot. But could you meet other players in space? How is the gameplay with other players?

Multiplayer was something that Hello Games lied about at release and they got what they deserved. It was introduced in the meantime tho and respect where respect is deserved...NMS has really come around after multiple patches that provided what it initally promised. MP in NMS still isnt on the scope as you desire but lets be frank here....
And you can only have other players in the huge fleet carriers I guess
isnt something Star Citizen provides either. Its just part of "the dream" but we are a long way off. Star Citizen works "small scale" with single ships and 10-15 players. Do you remember CIGs citcon video with 2 Idris capital ships? That was by all accounts a pre-rendered cutscene, not actually simulated or performed on-hands (the whole presentation was histerically obvious as a deceptive actors performance) and you can see the power and limitations of Cryengine 3 right there. So this is a point which I am adamant about. As long as the PU doesnt involve large scale fleet carriers allowing for massive fleet battles....Star Citizen cannot do it either and too many people "assume" or deliberatly "grant" SC that capability simply they opt to "believe" CIG.

Other companies are called out on promises and criticism is pretty nit-picky but Star Citizen is kind of special here. As stated before the level of tolerance and goodwill directed at a company that has no obligations or sympathy toward the backer is insane and justfies questioning. But this too is a topic already covered several years ago.

Why are people so convinced of SCs success despite all the signs pointing in the other direction?

It didnt go too long because this forum enforces a "discuss the topic, not each other" rule which is probably a good thing but this line of thinking was continued in other places.

So now I know about previously unkown things like "Sunk Cost Fallacy" or "building a cult for dummies" simply because they fit Star Citizen and what I can see.

This isnt a black or white scenario. Which means a whole lot of people are actually sitting in the middle of the extremes. Aware of the projects truggles and problems but willing to wait and see if CIG eventually overcomes these obstacles.But obviously with a topic discussed so heatedly as SC its nearly impossible to stay neutral or in the middle for long. Fans will call you "hater" for accepting negative facts and critics will call you "fanboy" for not outright denying SC. And even tho many people call the FD forums Star Citizen thread a "haters echo-chamber" this is one of the few places where you can openly state your view and opinion without being ridiculed and laughed at as long as you heed the forum rules.

Exaggerations and blatant lies will be challenged regardless what "side" you are on and personally I love this place for this. I could think that "its pretty to bash SC here, the other haters will back me up" and I would be very mistaken because even people who have a less then positive opinion about SC will not tolerate lies and abuse....this happened several times in the history of the thread already.

As for X4, you might want to check a few videos about it as you seem to have no followed or checked up on X4 to begin with (again, following Star Citizen often seems to come at the cost of objectivity and individuals completely ignore other projects and development in the industry, not talking about you specifically here). X4 has space legs, it has space stations with NPCs, you can enter and fly and ship you see. You can EVA, you can board and capture other ships, you can have big fleet balltes and you can engage in a list of activities that are actaully fleshed out and provide the base for gameplay loops like trading, being a mercenary, base building and creating an empire (pretty much X.series style).

But its all single player. No MP yet also its pretty light on the mods, something the X-titles usually benefit from immensly when it comes to value.

X4 already provides and delivers everything SQ42 tries to do. CIG was already beaten to the punchline and I believe that SQ42 wont even come close to the scope of X4 in any meaningful way. And while the visuals of X4 are not shabby or bad by any account they are of course not on the god-polish level that SC is. Yet personally I prefer stability and reliably performance over good looking screenshots because ED already provides that quality on a scale where SC cant even compete (personal opinion).

I know a couple of games that already provide what SC tries to do but I m really bad with games so I ll need to look it up or wait for somebody else to point em out. We have listed competeing titles with similar scope and capabilities a few times already.

I do not overlook problems, I know its full of it and I stumble very often over them. However this isn`t holding me back from playing it.

As is your right of course. If anything this makes your input more valuable then from somebody who likes what he sees but is willing to ignore or disregard red flags or problems as a consequence. People like you are also valuable because you of all people will make sure that Star Citizen receives the respect it deserves when it comes to accomplishments. I gotta admit that I sometimes have to "fight" my hater symptoms where I initially assume the worst or wrongdoing and need to actively remind myself to approach this with an open mind.

But Star Citizen isnt an exception in this regard. Any company that would have that kind of track record, taking in and using up that amount of money while not delivering what it promised. Openly lying about things, using misinterpretation and vague descritpitions to protect itself and abusing its community as CIG has done so far....this isnt something I would tolerate. From where I m standing CIG "deserves" criticism and distrust simply based on how the last 8 years went.

So personally I m unable to understand people who point at any given roadmap and act like everything is a-okay simply because the written words reflect a paradise. And by trying to "understand them" my conclusion is pretty starightforward

  • they dont have any kind of substantial experience with the game probably not following for more then a couple months
  • they dont "want" to see the obvious problems (like road maps being very unreliable and often not reflecting whats really going on)

One of these is innocense, the other is a conscious decision despite knowing things. I usually make it a rule to not argue with people in the second category. Its pretty much a waste of time. Its like Jehowas witnesses....they can believe what they want, I dont need to ridicule or convert them, its their own decision but you simply cant talk to such people. Tried it, learned from it. Waste of my time :) So I ignore them and I ask them to ignore me, one of us is simply wrong but we dont need to figure that out.

I have gone 8 years in observing Star Citizen. I have another 40 good years in me I hope so I m fully prepared to see this thing through. Some people on the net threw things like "when SC is finally done and delivered you will feel pretty stupid for hating on it for years" at me thinking it was some kind of "strong argument" or something and my immediate thought was "indeed....we will" :) By all accounts Chris Roberts will die before me simply because he is older at this moment. And personally I dont even think is as ridiculous as it sounds. Chris Roberts shows a number of signs to keep this thing running as long as humanly possible. Regardless of his actual thoughts there is no denying that such a thing would benefit him financially a great deal. He is drawing a CEO paycheck every single month, so does his brother, his wife and his closest friend, all positioned in high tier positions enabling them all to leech as much cash out of the project as humanly possible.

You know how you "hate" to see the bad guy getting away scott free in movies? Thats how I see Chris Roberts and CIG. Star Citizen is a drama playing out in real time. There is tragedy and abuse aplenty. Deception, manipulation, brainwashing and the people who will eventually be left to hold the debris are going to be the people who had the best intentions and were willing to make this happen. The "little guys". This isnt even a theory anymore. By now CIG has changed its TOS so often that the average backer has no control, no right and no chance to ever get something out of this should it ever go under. And the "its alright, this is crowdfunding" justification doesnt even register anymore because CIG has morped into something completely different by now.

Am I still the only one who is concerned by the freely applied term of "MVP"? Am I the only one that understands the consequences of allowing SC to release as a MVP without demanding its past promises to be delivered? Why is this so accepted without an uproar? By accepting this without a fuss you sabotage yourself already.

The current PU? The thing Star Citizen is right now? That qualifies it as a MVP already so Chris Roberts could already at any given time stop development, drop this thing and walk away. He is already in the clear. Would you be happy with that? No? Then why do people accept this as willingly as they appear to do? Fans who keot this project afloat for all these years have no right, cannot demand explanations beyond the "we tried" oneliner they will receive. And bar any investigative code-munchers or whistleblowers tackling this thing we will never figure out at which point Chris Roberts knew exactly he cannot deliver but decided to continue because of the sweet sweet free money all drained into his offshore shell companies and spent as "used" over the course of years in which people showed insane levels of patience and understanding.

From where I m standing this case already shows signs of criminal abuse and intention. Personally I would like to see more control, more rights for the backer and more restrictions and oversight put on CIG but we all know that train has long left the station. At 350+ million dollars this isnt a "we ll give it our best" attempt anymore. Not when actual sales are based on very questionable capabilities and skills. The fact that CIG is selling new features and ships to produce old ones is so glaringly obvious that I often need to restrain myself to not type "what the HELL is wrong with you people?" to figure out whats going on.

At this kind of funding and this duration of development we should ve a considerable amount of content and game in our hands. Yet Star Citizen is by any metrics an alpha which positions it very early in its total development life. If its current progress is an indicator we can assume Star Citizen...the game....will require 20 more years and probably technology that doesnt exist at this moment to become a reality. You cannot fast-track beta and finetuning. There is a reason why in other video game projects beta usually takes the longest and wehn we argue what kind of stage SC currently is then that is because CIG doesnt seem to know itself and its actual state is anybodies best guess....this isnt transparency. This is distraction and deflection to point away from the ugliness that SC is (and I m not talking about the graphics)

And I do not say other games are bad and SC is the holy grail.

Didnt think you were. If I have had that impression I wouldnt ve replied in the first place :) Instead you asked me about what I think or "why" I have this view which I lay out into the open so I m giving you the benefit of the doubt and treat you like an adult :) I dont have any kind of "hope" left for Star Citizen and CIG but I feel for people like you who either dont see what I see, dont have the knowledge I do or are simply more forgiving then I am. I hold grudges. Depending on what we talk about the threshold to get on my bad side is pretty high. Like my wife can call me all kinds of things and we ll hug and continue to love each other regardless. A stranger coming up to me and calling me an idiot....you are not coming back from my bad side dude :)

I started out as a hopeful believer of Star Citizen. I "wanted" it to become a reality and back in 2012 I was already thinking like "oh maaaan, 2014? Thats an eternity, cant you speed up or something?" and maybe you remember the first couple of years where we didint even have a hangar or arena module? Thats a perdiod of time CIG was left alone to do whatever, people trusted them and were in high spirits...including me.

The space hangar was disappointing but it managed to impress people with its "potential" especially as CIG sold it as the first step from which the rest of the world will evolve. We now know that the hangar is a completely seperated module from the PU. It will never be integrated in its current form. Its a stand-alone. This is a realization CIG doesnt deny or correct but they sure as hell also dont admit to it. So pretty much everything CIG managed to release so far is a "proof of concept" not an actual development project. They tried to enhance the original PU proof of concept but ran into so many problems and issues that they were forced to switch to a completely new thing....Star Citizen 3.0 looking similar but not having a lot to do with the original PU in regards to coding. This was questioned and discussed in 2016 but people still were willing to give them this second chance.

And they blew that one too. This time due to sheer incompetence and greed. Again Star Citizen 2.0 looks like a chaotic mess with so many glaring problems that make promises and announcements very questionable simply because the devs seem to be unable to squash old problems. But they keep running by adding new problems to the pile so regardless how patient and understanding you are, pure faith doesnt make reality.

Of course the excuses and juistifications pretty much stayed the same over the years. In fact you are pretty much equired to know about a certain thing in order to "understand" the problem at hand and being able to disregard it as "unimportant" or being a question of time. By all accounts CIG is running out of time....fast. If not because of the goodwill and patience backers provide then simply because this project is so expensive to keep up that private people are unable to cover the base much longer. CIG bringing in new investors and even selling parts of the company is a pretty clear signal and the last outdated snapshots we have because its publicly available papers (UK financials) prove that CIG was at the brink of collapse more then once already.

At the very least people should be concerned (and I m not saying you are not) but so many people on the net demonstrate blind faith and hope aggressively denying facts and people pointing out problems that we have to talk about how much CIG utilizes its fanboys that it "groomed" itself intentionally to avoid collapse and keep drawing money. Which would be "criminal abuse" and the fact that we even entertain this idea is worrying in itself.

I can only hope they will work a stable base out at some time.

We had some ace posts in this regard already. And without wanting to flame or diss you (please dont take this as an offense)...if you really believe that chances are you dont know very much about game development.

The challenge is always to "bring stuff together in the end" but thats not the rule or how development is being done. You always have a solid foundation which works reliably and supports the scope of the project. You still will run into problems once you start to stack modules and team results into one thing. But CIG doesnt even have a solid foundation. The PU which "should be one" is full of bugs, glitches, doesnt work reliably and appears to be at its limit already. This is not a foundation to build stuff on. This conglomerate mess is already wheezing and trying to keep breathing as it is. And people NEED to face this truth and look for solutions rather then ignore the current state and looking forward.

You are only in with 45 bucks and dont mind the money? Feel free to continue as you were.
You are a golden ticket holder which proves that you are a backer from day 1 (if you didnt buy the account /hate), do you care to share how deep you are in?
People have dumped amounts of money into this project that could keep people alive for years, buy a car or even start paying off a house and they did it for what reason specifically. I m not denying people their right to spend money on what they want but I am not poor myself. I understand the idea and concept of "disposable money" and STILL I always try to make sure I get my moneys worth. Simply because money at my disposal is "disposable" doesnt mean I go around throwing it away or burning it myself. I spend it on luxuries I dont really "need" for survival and its amounts of money that would keep an african family of 5 alive for months easy. But I dont understand why people keep dumping money into SC. What exactly is the return value here? I dont accept the "I m rich yoh" justification because if you were rich and behaved like this you are simply demonstrating being stupid or you are plain out lying using your financial status as an argument and being less then truthful (why should I share my financial status with complete strangers on the internet in the first place? It would only make me a target right?)

After I gave up on the project itself I continued to stay in order to understand the people believing into it. I have experiened a number of times were my initial perception was changed due to a shift in perspective. So maybe if I understood SC pro-backers I could get back behind it?

That only has opened a can of worms that turned my initial assessment even darker because if I can see this and whats actually happening (a lot of people do by now) then the CEO of CIG can see it too, after all its his JOB to think about this 24/7. He even outsourced public relations and marketing to his wife so theoretically the risks and public perception is a known thing. Yet CIG doesn next to nothing to counter this movement. The only people providing explanations, data and theories denying any wrongdoing are the fans. And that itself is answer enough for me, specifically if you think about the amount of money Chris, his wife and his brother go home with every single month. Suddenly the argument of "innocent mistake" and "incompetence" goes right out the window. This looks more like a scheme or scam from where I m standing. Henc why I call it one :) I just dont have any trust left for CIG and I m surprised anybody does because in case SC really is a scam (its nothing more then my opinion right now) then this kind of trust only empowers them to keep going.

I recently engaged in the Bordelands 3 forums and post a lot of things I am critical about. Just like with Star Citizen I am often engaged and attacked by people who call me a hater or ask me to leave if I dont like it. Its confusing and I really cant understand it. I am not asking for perfection but the current systems and mechanics are lacking, this in a released full prize AAA game. I feel I em "entitled" to have a view yet...because I m not praising Gearbox I am denied an opinion. I knew it from my SC time already but BL3 really has hit home in this regard.

Criticism and hard queastions are absolutely REQUIRED to ensure quality and solid results. The general census seems to be that BL3 release version is at best "an early attempt" and not the full game. Too many things are raw, unrefined or work unreliably. It has all the signs of a rushed product. And such it seems my criticism is not even deserved but also required to improve the game. If everybody would praise Gearbox and tell em how great the game is disregarding or ignoring the problems then the game will never become better.

This is really whats happening with Star Citizen. People who engage in the projects defense because they think it even "needs" defending in the first place ensure things stay the same. If we dont hold CIG to past promises and question their actions they have no reason to deliver or provide anything that we expect. Of course you have people who paint a darker picture intentionally or go on the barricades on a whim for nothing but in those cases the game itself has to provide the answers. Star Citizen doesnt do that because it canot apart from "showing potential". There really are no results that would calm down worry or criticism.


This is certainly an aspect I´m not sure about. I´m not that good in dogfighting in general, not to speak of fighting against other human players, so I just take it as it is. I can control the ship to fly where I want to and can do combat against AI. Just from the feeling I have with it it´s ok for me

And you certainly dont need proficiency or knowing everything in order to have an opinion. Yet regardless where I look I m meeting the "you are not even a backer" or "well maybe you think its a problem because you su ck so much" denying me my basic right simply because people dont like what I have to say. If I was wrong then a simple pointing out to the rigth answer should fix the issue. But with Star Citizen its always getting verbally abused, being called names and treated like an enemy. Worse, people dont even bother to provide answers anymore but simply disregard the slightest sign of criticism as "hate". This is a pretty deadlocked topic.

Usually I wouldnt even care to write these massive walls anymore because I did it in the past and pretty much everything I could possible write is archived and documented in a number of my old posts. I just ddint write a lot in the last couple months so I feel I "need" to up my quota hehehe.


As I said before I strongly believe in CIG that they want to make that game. It´s only that CR might not be able to handle the money like is needed for such a project. He's lost in his own dreams. But on the other hand I would not have space legs like I have it right now in SC.

THIS is what I m interested in to be honest. You claim to see the problem yet you reserve the believe that it ll be all right. Where does that confidence come from? If you care enough to invest time and effort to dig through the topic, take a step back in order to clear your head, HOW can you remain optimisitic as you are? Your provided answer is that it makes you "feel" good but thats not the question or topic at all. We are discussing CIGs capabilities to provide what they promised. I can like this first iteration of Star Citizen currently existing as the PU and STILL be worried because I realize that this version is not sufficient to allow the dream to become a reality. So either you provide logicial thinking and observations, draw on facts that support your view or you need to accept that people will call your conviction "blind hope" and it would even be an accurate description in the literal sense.

If Star Citizen would be as transparent as its advertised as....hope wouldnt even come into the equation. Every question should be answered, the inner workings and procedures laid out so that people can have a proper look and draw their information from that. Something that would actually "back up" confidence and optimism. What can you provide in that regard? What do you "see" or "know" that I dont?


What games do you mean where I can walk through stations and do cave walking? X4 stations, cave walking in NMS? Form my experience in X-Rebirth station walking was not nearly immersive. Weird looking faces. Dont know how much it improved in the latest X game. Cave walking in NMS also isnt that atmospheric like it is in SC. Dogfighting certainly is more fun in ED. About planet surfaces its again the space legs for me. For example a mission where I need to infiltrate a bunker. I just like it to be able to land my ship nearby the bunker and visit it per foot, maybe need to hide while nearing the entrance because I saw another ship landing there and don`t know what the other player will do when seeing me.

You are waaaay too specific here and demand an excat replica in atmosphere and immersion that only SC provides. But these things are completely different things from the actual feat. X4 allows going through Space stations, EVA and ships but it doesnt have planetary landing (yet). NMS allows cave walking. It doesnt really matter if you like SCs approach better. both games allow it. SCs only advantage over NMS is the looks because it gets beaten in every another aspect. Complexity, versatility, depth, content and these things are arguable the more important things yet they are all ignored because "SC looks better" how is that rational thinking? And again we are at the eternal excuse "SC is in alpha" yes....very much aware of it...still, possibly by design KEPT in this static state to avoid final verdicts and collapse.

So sure, if you want to take the "no game is doing what Star Citizen does" literally then you are quiet correct. But Star Citizen also isnt doing what NMS does and its not doing what X4 does and both of these games offer a whole lot more in regards to content.....again "SC is in alpha" I guess :) This isnt telling you what you think btw, I m simply trying to anticipate possible replies.

if we take a look at what testers in Star Citizen currently DO the most then "Angels fall first" is a big contender.

It has space legs, FPS fighting, ship fighting from dogfighters to capital ships, has planetary activities (not seamless) and is pretty far along but its developed on a shoe string budget with a tiny team. This game will not enable you to explore or trade or simply hang out, mine etc. Its combat focused but the immersive detail it already provides rivals Star Citizen in those areas.

And than brings me to my last point (promise). Star Citizen certainly is not unique in what it tries to accomplish. The combination of things and the specific set-up is done in a way that ensures no other game can deliver what it promises and CIG knows that, its very possible that CIG knowingly expands the scope in order to "stay ahead of the pack" even if the project cannot support those promises. Does "scam" become more possible under that viewpoint?

A whole lot of games try to squeeze into the space sim genre, many on a smaller scale but many with good results. People disregard ED but try to think about what ED "could ve become already" if it would ve been showered with money on the scale that Star Citizen has. Frontier has announced space legs and even tho we have no idea how that will look like giving them 350 millions to make it a reality "might ve done the trick already". And thats true for all kinds of games. Hellion shows incredible immersive capabilities. So many games allow for "dreams" but actually deliver results. Why do people decide to keep funding CIG which shows so many signs of being unable to come true to its words? Why are the achievements of other teams being disregarded or even ridiculed when they managed to release on a fraction of budget and in time what SC still tries to do?

Projects are discontinued when other venues promise better results or the project itself proves to not be viable. If Star Citizen would have official investors I have no doubt it would ve gone belly up already. The "I keep hoping" statements by you and others are really only just internal justifications to live with your decisions and not face the truth. because seriously...what else can you do? I am holding CIG to their words, I dont forget past promises or scope and I do watch with worry how Star Citizen changed into something that it wasnt suppoed to be in 2012. By being vocal about it and reminding people I also put a whole lot more time and effort into all this. Its possible that despite my dislike of CIG i still do care a whole lot about Star Citizen

Because SC and CIG are two different entities and the way I see it.....CIG "murdered" the dream. Thats not me, not my doing, nothing I did has affected this. What we can observe has happened because CIG was unable to perform what they claimed, other games catch up or even surpass SC already and what most people do instead of dumping CIG and trying to empower some "worthy" project deserving attention and funding is to cling stubbornly to a dead horse, hating on other games and people who dare to criticize SC. Told you...I m holding a grudge. Its directed against CIG who failed so obviously and probably intentionally to bolster some peoples wallets all based on hope and trust of small people.

Sorry man, I really feel bad now after proof-reading this thing :)
 
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