The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Ben Parry]

Gotta admit, that last screen form dear ben seems pretty contradictory from what he has been saying recently.

going from CE 3.7 ( star engine ) to 3.8 is a nono from your own words shown up there, but going from star engine ( modified 3.7 CE ) to lumberyard, ( modified 3.8 CE ) is easy peacy.

care to explain ?

I think I explained further up, but it's probably buried.
If your modifications are relative to 3.7, and their modifications start diverging at 3.8, then switching from "modded 3.7 CryEngine" to "modded 3.7 Lumberyard" is no changes, because you're at a point before theirs diverged.

 

[ianw]

The problem with game engine (or any framework) stuff is that it is very technical. The usual laws of layman's common sense do not always apply, some terminology and thinking can seem like nonsense or , even though it is not.

For clarity's sake my refernce to in that particular exchange was relating to the 3.0 at the end of the year thing (there are many many other things in this whole saga that would also fit the bill - but in this instance that's the specific thing).

That said even if you have zero knowledge about a subject it's surprisingly easy to spot commonly used techniques, phrases, inconsistencies and other verbal sleights of hand that get deployed when someone is being economical with the truth.

Especially when you've been observing their output for years - in this case CR and CIG for the avoidance of doubt.

ETA - spelling - again.

 

[1500]

Is this meant to be... some kind of gotcha? I will 100% cop to not knowing whether a version is still in test or whether it's released. But if I'd said the PU was launched in version SC 1.6, then said a bunch of other authoritative stuff about, I dunno, some of the ships... maybe you'd wonder if I knew as much as I thought I did.

Ok, so here's me a year ago saying we'd want to move away from full point updates applied to the whole engine, and in favour of a kind of rewriting-by-copypaste. In the last few pages of this thread, I'm talking about the engine switch in terms of a large buffet of features that we can take what we want from. The trick with quote-mining is you're meant to find conflicting quotes .

You mean like you did in this thread? Yes you don't know what version SC is on, but talk about authority of aspects you have no connection with. Seems like a glass house to me.

Nope I showed you saying that upgrading is a real pain, and now you are saying its supper easy. Only thing that has changed is what CIG has done. Interesting how it was too much of a pain then, but its super easy now.

 

[Remus]

I think I explained further up, but it's probably buried.
If your modifications are relative to 3.7, and their modifications start diverging at 3.8, then switching from "modded 3.7 CryEngine" to "modded 3.7 Lumberyard" is no changes, because you're at a point before theirs diverged.

I thought that lumberyard was CE 3.8, plus starengine and lumberyard asside from the core which is Cryengine, dont share any of the changes that relate to each other.

At least that is what I know.
you contradict yourself in one sentence, you yourself claim that LY is 3.8 + mods, and then claims that there is no problem to switch to LY beacause it is 3.7 + mods. Sorry Ben but I honestly don't undertand what you are trying to achieve here. I'm dumb so you will have to speak in laimans terms and not in some techie obscure lingo if you want people like me to understand.

So far I know that 3.7 and 3.8 are different, if you ad mods to each one they are even more different. Why are you claiming that it is not the case ? Found a way to put a square in a triangle ? Care to share ? I really want to know.

And yes, in the previous screen post you contradict yourself.

 

[Ben Parry]

You mean like you did in this thread? Yes you don't know what version SC is on, but talk about authority of aspects you have no connection with. Seems like a glass house to me.

Nope I showed you saying that upgrading is a real pain, and now you are saying its supper easy. Only thing that has changed is what CIG has done. Interesting how it was too much of a pain then, but its super easy now.

Still no. This is starting to get tedious.
Switching is easy, full-version upgrading is hard.
Switching at a point after the upgrades have diverged is extra hard.
What's been done is switching.
So it wasn't hard.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Better choice than what?

Then butchered CE AkA Star Engine?Pls enlighten us What was it?

 

[Remus]

Still no. This is starting to get tedious.
Switching is easy, full-version upgrading is hard. 3.8 IS and upgrade to 3.7, Star engine is 3.7, LY is 3.8, you are switching to an upgraded engine, in a previous post you stated that it was like REALLY hard to do, but here you claim it is not. What gives ?
Switching at a point after the upgrades have diverged is extra hard. LY mods from CE are not the same mods as star engine, so you agree that it is going to be a difficult transition ?
What's been done is switching.
So it wasn't hard.switching to an upgraded version of CE, which from your own words is really difficult. But now you say it is not ?

I'm confused

 

[1500]

Still no. This is starting to get tedious.
Switching is easy, full-version upgrading is hard.
Switching at a point after the upgrades have diverged is extra hard.
What's been done is switching.
So it wasn't hard.

Well you are right about one thing, this is getting tedious, why do you keep contradicting yourself? The switch requires a version upgrade, LY is not the same code base as SC or SE anymore, it was modified by Amazon. Even when it branched it was not the same version as SC. Then you add on all the modifications that CIG said they have done, and all of those have to get moved to the new engine.

And CIG are at the point of switching after the upgrades have diverged. Or are you saying that CIG have not in fact changed 50% of the code. You have said multiple times that CIG are not throwing out their own code. So which is it?

 

[Ben Parry]

I thought that lumberyard was CE 3.8, plus starengine and lumberyard asside from the core which is Cryengine, dont share any of the changes that relate to each other.

At least that is what I know.
you contradict yourself in one sentence, you yourself claim that LY is 3.8 + mods, and then claims that there is no problem to switch to LY beacause it is 3.7 + mods. Sorry Ben but I honestly don't undertand what you are trying to achieve here. I'm dumb so you will have to speak in laimans terms and not in some techie obscure lingo if you want people like me to understand.

So far I know that 3.7 and 3.8 are different, if you ad mods to each one they are even more different. Why are you claiming that it is not the case ? Found a way to put a square in a triangle ? Care to share ? I really want to know.

And yes, in the previous screen post you contradict yourself.

Ah, I think I see your misunderstanding. You think SC has switched from StarEngine to Lumberyard. Actually StarEngine has switched from being a modification of CryEngine to being a modification of Lumberyard.
Can you see that because Lumberyard and CryEngine split away from one another at 3.8, if you rewound either of them to 3.7, they'd be the same as each other?
Right, so with StarEngine branching off at that shared 3.7 point, can you see that it doesn't matter which one it's a modification of?

 

[CmdrKull]

Still no. This is starting to get tedious.
Switching is easy, full-version upgrading is hard.
Switching at a point after the upgrades have diverged is extra hard.
What's been done is switching.
So it wasn't hard.

So Ben, that really only works in one of 3 scenarios:
CIG hasn't changed CryEngine very much to make Star Engine

Amazon hasn't changed CryEngine very much to make Lumberyard

CIG has only copy/pasted a very small fraction of the LY changed into StarEngine.

So 3 seems obvious at this point. Which means very little has changed so far and the majority of the work is still ahead, pushing 3.0 further and further into the future.

 

[Hi-Ban]

Then butchered CE AkA Star Engine?Pls enlighten us What was it?

They are still running StarEngine. Didn't you read Ben's post from some days ago? He wrote a very easy to understand buffet analogy. I assume you missed that post.
Still a lot easier than switching from, lets say, Havok to UE4.

 

[Ben Parry]

Well you are right about one thing, this is getting tedious, why do you keep contradicting yourself? The switch requires a version upgrade, LY is not the same code base as SC or SE anymore, it was modified by Amazon. Even when it branched it was not the same version as SC. Then you add on all the modifications that CIG said they have done, and all of those have to get moved to the new engine.

And CIG are at the point of switching after the upgrades have diverged. Or are you saying that CIG have not in fact changed 50% of the code. You have said multiple times that CIG are not throwing out their own code. So which is it?

1) Why would the switch require a version upgrade?
2) CIG is not at the point of switching after divergence. The things that diverged are Lumberyard and CryEngine. That happened at 3.8.1. StarEngine is a mod at 3.7 (ish), before the divergence.

- - - Updated - - -

So 3 seems obvious at this point.

SOMEONE gets it.

Which means very little has changed so far and the majority of the work is still ahead, pushing 3.0 further and further into the future.

Depends how isolated the stuff the networking team actually wants is. Depends how much of it they want.
As I said upthread, I severely doubt the plan is to update all of everything to the current version.

 

[1500]

1) Why would the switch require a version upgrade?
2) CIG is not at the point of switching after divergence. The things that diverged are Lumberyard and CryEngine. That happened at 3.8.1. StarEngine is a mod at 3.7 (ish), before the divergence.

- - - Updated - - -


SOMEONE gets it.

Depends how isolated the stuff the networking team actually wants is. Depends how much of it they want.
As I said upthread, I severely doubt the plan is to update all of everything to the current version.

So you are saying that Starengine didn't diverge from Cryengine. So that means that CIG have not in fact changed 50% of the code. So lets take CIG's statements at face value, Starengine and LY are a divergence of Cryengine. So unless LY did the same changes to the engine as CIG, and we know that is not true. CIG are doing a switch after divergence.

So we are back to CIG only changing for the network code that can't be used to make the MMO and will have to be made by CIG anyway.

Really it makes little difference. CIG only announce good things before they happen, and bad things after they happen. It will be interesting to see if any of the other features of LY show up in SC, other than network code. And more importantly if CIG are able to produce any gameplay mechanics and start making a game. The last year of next to no progress is not a good sign.

 

[Skizomeuh]

So we are back to CIG only changing for the network code that can't be used to make the MMO and will have to be made by CIG anyway.

But act as a perfect smokescreen to divert from all that has been fakely showed and all that haven't been done/released/debugged/designed/etc.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

I'm an amateur here, so take everything with a pinch of salt.

CE is not one large drill like the one they used for the channel tunnel. It is a tradesman's bag full of tools like a hammer, a hand drill, a micrometer, a chisel, several screwdrivers and spanners, etc

So if CE 3.7 had all these tools and CiG changed the micrometer and the chisel but left the rest... And LY took the 3.7 toolbag and have left it more or less alone but added some Whitworth sockets and a pair of snipe nosed pliers...

The upshot is that most of the toolbag is still the same, with a couple of additions from both sides that they need to check for interoperability?

I think it is getting fractious in here because everyone (I'll admit it was my thought), has been getting hung up on the old "50% modified" quote from Brian C?

Something largely based on CE 3.7 being flipped to work with something else largely based on CE 3.7 is nowhere near the pain of going from CE 3.7 to Unreal 4?

Just trying to calm the waters a little, although I do reserve the right to be wrong!

 

[Remus]

So Ben, you are telling me that the whole 50% CE changes to make "star engine" was ? So now Star engine is just a simple mod that can be copy pasted on any version of cry engine, whether it has modifications of its own or not ?
If this is the case, did it really took 2 years for CIG to be able to make just a simple engine mod ?

all the money spent on just a mod ?

 

[Zyll Goliat]

They are still running StarEngine. Didn't you read Ben's post from some days ago? He wrote a very easy to understand buffet analogy. I assume you missed that post.
Still a lot easier than switching from, lets say, Havok to UE4.

You ppl. are really something you know that.......and I figure that it´s pointless to have reasonable conversation with "you" any more.....the CULT is simply that the CULT and it´s making me sick how deep you people are ready to go into the brainwashing and butkissing from anything that comes out from CIG.....

 

[Hi-Ban]

So we are back to CIG only changing for the network code that can't be used to make the MMO and will have to be made by CIG anyway.

Amazon Game Studios is developing a MMO using the Lumberyard engine. It's called "New World".
Just sayin'...

You ppl. are really something you know that.......and I figure that it´s pointless to have reasonable conversation with "you" any more.....the CULT is simply that the CULT and it´s making me sick how deep you people are ready to go into the brainwashing and butkissing from anything that comes out from CIG.....

Dude chill out, i just directed you to a post in which Ben explains it in an easy to understand way.

 

[Monk]

So Ben, you are telling me that the whole 50% CE changes to make "star engine" was ? So now Star engine is just a simple mod that can be copy pasted on any version of cry engine, whether it has modifications of its own or not ?
If this is the case, did it really took 2 years for CIG to be able to make just a simple engine mod ?

all the money spent on just a mod ?

This makes all the talk about reworks even worse as it suggests that a ton of time has been burned on assets rather than a functioning game.

 

[Ben Parry]

So you are saying that Starengine didn't diverge from Cryengine.

No. Good god, man, no.

StarEngine diverged from CryEngine at 3.7
LY and CE diverged from one another at 3.8
So, because 3.7 is less that 3.8, StarEngine's changes are as compatible with CryEngine as they are with Lumberyard.

If they'd diverged at 3.7, and StarEngine was based on 3.8, then StarEngine would be based on code that wasn't the same, and there'd be problems.

If you stay with CE, or you switch to LY, taking later updates takes work because of StarEngine's differences. Which is why my quote from yesteryear about not just doing big merges.