When I watch this video, I see dozens of PA shots which would melt a player ship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_6HjebZFYs
You were saying NPC's take heat but clearly here they are not.
Do you have any proof of NPCs taking heat? Does anyone?
The state of NPCs and their blatant cheating, how to get the trust back?
- Thread starter Vincent Starson
- Start date
When I watch this video, I see dozens of PA shots which would melt a player ship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_6HjebZFYs
You were saying NPC's take heat but clearly here they are not.
Do you have any proof of NPCs taking heat? Does anyone?
Nope. Rules need to be intentional in order to be rules. Somebody needs to define them, otherwise it wouldn't be rules. What you are talking about are bugs.
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Do you have any proof that this isn't a bug?
Hypothetical here for you since there has been no response from FD beyond SJA's since removed tweet suggesting pilot error...we are all assuming this is a bug...What if it's not?
How do you go about proving something isn't a bug as a player? The only one who can say whether it's intended or not is a dev / community rep at Frontier.
Yep, that's a bug all right. One that has already been reported. Clearly along with the rate of fire the bug allows the ship to evade the ruinous heat of that rate of fire, since we know that NPCs are supposed to be affected by heat.
However you also claimed infinite chaff (which would also be a bug). Haven't seen one single piece of reliable evidence for that one. Got any? Seen any? If not, don't claim it as a fact. The plural of anecdote is not data. Whether you have a problem with it or not doesn't change that IF it exists, it's a bug
I'm not suggesting you spend your play time looking for bugs, but when you encounter one it's reasonable to spend a few minutes trying to reproduce it and documenting it as thoroughly as possible so FD can fix it faster.
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Can players reproduce that specific bug on their own ship (the plasma accelerator firing frenzy one, that is)?. To be fair, if we're supposing that it's indeed a bug, the fact that only NPC is "affected" by it is rather fishy, and tells a bit about the extent by which rules seem to be bended for them.
Edit: to clarify, it is certainly a bug, yes. But one that unintentionnaly gives some hints about the way NPCs are (or in fact aren't) affected by the same rules as players. Yes, unlimited ammo is well known (and it's not a "coding necessity", btw, it's a gameplay design). I don't like it a bit, never had, but it's been like that for a while. What this current bug shows is that NPCs are playing by different rules with fire rate and heat management as well.
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They said several times that NPCs play by the same rules like players. If this isn't true it's clear that there is a bug involved.
what ive noticed - from a LOT of personal study
1. Same guns on their ships do more damage to you than you do to them
2. Had a sidey last night i killed slowly for nearly 20 mins, chaffed the whole time, how many chaff containers can you fit in a sidey
3. Had a conda today couldnt get his shields down, in all I counted 12 shield cell banks before i got bored
4. My large weapons now sometimes dont register damage on targets or if it does its only a few %
5. When im on the 6 of an AI and fire my manually aimed canons, they dodge almost as the fire button is depressed
6. Their turn rates seem better now in general - this is ok a good fight etc
7. Player centricity (many others firing at same AI along with system NPCs but keeps guns on me as the biggest ship there) - noticed this for some time
8. Many kills dont get a bounty (even when no other players in wing or NPCs are firing on your target)
These are the things I noticed about this release. It took me an hour of gameplay to notice them.
Its concerning that 2 years in, a core mechanic of AI is still not right; for the last few months dull as dishwater now so far at the other end of the scale advice is dont go out fighting in your expensive ship. Im actually all in favour of having AI removed and
forcing all online. Just redeploy the AI department on to the mountain of other things that need fixed or developed.
The definition of insanity is to do the same things and expect a different outcome
I think you don't understand how it works. The NPCs don't fly to the engineers to get their modules crafted like we do. It's likely that FDEV offers them a table with different upgrades they semi randomly pick from. If one of the items in this list has a wrong number somewhere it can lead to false results, like rapid firing PAs. We don't have access to this table so we can't reproduce it on our on ships.
Then it is called unwanted effect of design. ED is very sim like game, it simulates lot of their parts, to make outcomes unpredictable. This also goes with AI code. If there's some combination of AI code and OP weaponry which makes NPC AI to ignore killer heat, it is in the end a bug...but it is not classic bug of wrong variable, but unbalanced, unwanted side effect of design systems working together.
I would like to point out that nowhere in that deleted tweet SJA said it is by design. She pointed out errors by player, but she didn't comment on actual speed how fast player's ship got killed. It takes more than few views of video to understand issue.
I asked one user what rules he remembers NPCs bending. He mentioned Infinite Chaff/Ammo and zero heat issues. I didn't even bring it up man, and again I really don't care about the chaff they use because on a good day they die before they can run out.
Also, I clearly demonstrated that I care enough about the game to post on the bug forum and clearly document issues I come across.
The Devs stated that the NPC ships follow the exact same rules as player ships and have the same limits, except for multicannon ammo.
I really believe that that's what they try do do and enforce. This wouldn't be a Space SIM if the ships flown by NPCs were magic versions of our own ships.
But when I see bugs that break all the ship limits at the same time (heat, ammo, power capacitor, etc) like the plasma machinegun or the railgun beam, one starts to wonder how efficientely can the devs make the NPC ships follow the rules...
A bug as nasty as this is probably the reason for the whole feces-storm that hit the forum regarding the AI.
I really believe that that's what they try do do and enforce. This wouldn't be a Space SIM if the ships flown by NPCs were magic versions of our own ships.
But when I see bugs that break all the ship limits at the same time (heat, ammo, power capacitor, etc) like the plasma machinegun or the railgun beam, one starts to wonder how efficientely can the devs make the NPC ships follow the rules...
A bug as nasty as this is probably the reason for the whole feces-storm that hit the forum regarding the AI.
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I agree with this post. If the rules for NPCS are they take heat damage and have limited cap, then why aren't those rules being enforced on this weapon?
The only way it makes sense is if the NPCs have a plasma weapon that has infinite ammo, zero reload, costs zero heat to fire, and zero cap to use which would be ridiculous to allow into a major release patch.
Of course they don't fly there. Please.
Whether or not this bug is a weapon specific, engineer specific or else, it is a bug, yes. What is important is that it does show NPCs are playing by vastly different rules. Maybe a tad too vast.
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This bug is highly suggestive that the limitations players operate under do not apply to NPC's at all.
If it is only a weapon issue then Players should be able to reproduce on their own whips with the same weapon, no one has come forward yet to show that. Either they haven't got that upgraded weapon yet, they have and are abusing it for all its worth or players cannot produce the same results.
If a player cannot replicate the same effect it proves that the code that governs player weapon fire is different than NPC weapon fire, whether that is a bug or by design it is not on.
FDEV have made a big thing in the past that they could make the AI vastly better but players would not like it, cheating AI is not better it is a cheap way of doing things. I absolutely want the AI weapons and systems to play by the same rules, if they did you wouldn't have the problems we have now as the code for the weapons would be the same code. As players the code is different we can only see things by observing NPC behaviour, if it was a player weapon doing this it would be evident within seconds.
If it is only a weapon issue then Players should be able to reproduce on their own whips with the same weapon, no one has come forward yet to show that. Either they haven't got that upgraded weapon yet, they have and are abusing it for all its worth or players cannot produce the same results.
If a player cannot replicate the same effect it proves that the code that governs player weapon fire is different than NPC weapon fire, whether that is a bug or by design it is not on.
FDEV have made a big thing in the past that they could make the AI vastly better but players would not like it, cheating AI is not better it is a cheap way of doing things. I absolutely want the AI weapons and systems to play by the same rules, if they did you wouldn't have the problems we have now as the code for the weapons would be the same code. As players the code is different we can only see things by observing NPC behaviour, if it was a player weapon doing this it would be evident within seconds.
You dont need trust, you need the ability to count to eleven, as that is how much chaff a module contains. I'll admit, maybe that is either too much to ask or too boring compared with starting polemics on a forum.
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Feeling sorry for SJA, must be pretty crappy to work hard on something and then have a bunch of forumites start slinging mud online.
Ofcourse its different code, it makes zero sense to use the same code for a human that needs an interface and an AI that does not. The result should be the same, and in cases where it is not there is a bug. There was a difference in the chaff code, for example, that is fixed in 2.1.
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You dont need trust, you need the ability to count to eleven, as that is how much chaff a module contains. I'll admit, maybe that is either too much to ask or too boring compared with starting polemics on a forum.
Feeling sorry for SJA, must be pretty crappy to work hard on something and then have a bunch of forumites start slinging mud online.
Cannot rep you at the moment, but it's incoming
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You completely missed my point.
It proves nothing. It's entirely possible that they tried to design the NPC table exactly within the rules of player crafted modifications. A single variable defined wrong is already enough to generate different results. That's the first thing you'll learn when you want to program something yourself.
Wow same answer for both of these, I know how to code. The game is now one long piece of code it is split up into subroutines/functions. The subroutine for checking whether weapons can fire should be the same it has nothing to do with how the input to fire is generated either AI or Player it is purely a call to a subroutine or function, it should check the status of the ship in question. This one piece of code should apply to both NPC or AI, currently it either doesn't or there is some differentiation in the way a player or NPC weapon is treated.
Players fire is governed by Heat, Capacitor, Ammunition, etc quite clearly NPC fire isn't at the moment and this difference is leading to the problems intentional or otherwise.