The Type 10 Defender needs a buff

[InnoV4tion]

The main issue is repair limpets.

You can't have an armour tank, without in combat armour repair. Because it doesn't matter how much armour you have, it will always be out matched by shields as the damage protection they offer is technically infinite as they regen.

Sure, without running a shield you have a little extra power for bigger weapons, but the power distributer mechanic makes that advantage minimal.

Repair limpets that don't die unless taking direct damage, and will patiently wait their turn to repair instead of kicking the active one off would in my opinion fix the issue.

The danger of course would be that it makes existing shield tanks impossible to kill, in which case have the limpets behave differently when there is a shield.

It's a bit crazy that firing off 4 limpets will provide less repair than firing off one (due to activation time)

But in a wing, as a support ship, I imagine the t10 is really strong. I've not done any wing gameplay, but I imagine that in any 3v3 or 4v4 the wing with the t10 repair ship will win everytime against the one without

Repair limpets could also be used by other ships. Then, the problem would stays the same. The advantage of the better PD is maybe not that big but it is an advantage. Shields become "infinite" with time. You are right thats shields regen up BUT in a serious combat you do not have unlimited time. The needed resource is time abd you do not have it in battle. An improvement of armour will be a good start because it is ship specific. Theoretically it needs a hull, that could withstand fire a certain time for the bi-waves charging up back. In the chargin up time in a broken shield the chargin value per second is higher then in normal charge state.

If the charge speed of broken bi waves shields could reach the extra amount of defensive power, it could be enought if armour has enought value. Also it needs viable prismatic values to make the prismaboys happy.

Limpets are get shot by point defence btw. If you see them out, you just have to fly a bit close to destroy them easely. With higher defensive and offensive power, this would be no risk an damnation for the type 10.

 

[theBreadSultan]

Repair limpets could also be used by other ships. Then, the problem would stays the same. The advantage of the better PD is maybe not that big but it is an advantage. Shields become "infinite" with time. You are right thats shields regen up BUT in a serious combat you do not have unlimited time. The needed resource is time abd you do not have it in battle. An improvement of armour will be a good start because it is ship specific. Theoretically it needs a hull, that could withstand fire a certain time for the bi-waves charging up back. In the chargin up time in a broken shield the chargin value per second is higher then in normal charge state.

If the charge speed of broken bi waves shields could reach the extra amount of defensive power, it could be enought if armour has enought value. Also it needs viable prismatic values to make the prismaboys happy.

Limpets are get shot by point defence btw. If you see them out, you just have to fly a bit close to destroy them easely. With higher defensive and offensive power, this would be no risk an damnation for the type 10.

Yea the tricky thing about balance changes is that it can effect other aspects of the game.

I used to play a lot of Overwatch, so feel like I practically have a degree in 'unintentional effects of balance changes'

The solution I feel would be to create an interaction between shields and armour repair.

This could be done in several ways:

1. A new module that cannot be fitted on a ship with a shield - advanced repair limpet controller or nano coated self repairing armour modules

2. Scale repair speed inversely to max shield strength - then apply buff to repair limpets (so bigger shield - slower Hull repair)

3. Flat buff to repair limpets (including invulnerability frames) but Hull repairs use SYS capacity - with SYS at 0 limpets still function but at pre-buff levels

4. Flat nerd to shields to bring in line to existing armour tank survivability (can't see this being popular)

5. Larger health pool for repair limpets, damage to Hull with repair limpet attached is transferred to limpet - shields cannot regen while limpet is active

6. Flat buff to repair limpets - repair cannot happen while a shield module is active.

To me, #2 is probably the most elegant solution

 

[MightKite]

Yea the tricky thing about balance changes is that it can effect other aspects of the game.

I used to play a lot of Overwatch, so feel like I practically have a degree in 'unintentional effects of balance changes'

The solution I feel would be to create an interaction between shields and armour repair.

This could be done in several ways:

1. A new module that cannot be fitted on a ship with a shield - advanced repair limpet controller or nano coated self repairing armour modules

2. Scale repair speed inversely to max shield strength - then apply buff to repair limpets (so bigger shield - slower Hull repair)

3. Flat buff to repair limpets (including invulnerability frames) but Hull repairs use SYS capacity - with SYS at 0 limpets still function but at pre-buff levels

4. Flat nerd to shields to bring in line to existing armour tank survivability (can't see this being popular)

5. Larger health pool for repair limpets, damage to Hull with repair limpet attached is transferred to limpet - shields cannot regen while limpet is active

6. Flat buff to repair limpets - repair cannot happen while a shield module is active.

To me, #2 is probably the most elegant solution

So you would have the armour itself. A Prismatic Corvette can reach around 47000 MJ shields with all pips in systems. How fast should the repair mechanism be (in mind Type 10 can reach around 7500+ 30 percent resistence with Hull) to counter that if you were under gunfire meanwhile with better longterm damage output? What about weapons and modules? Do you have some numbers in mind?

Btw, it will not change any other aspect of the game if you add military restricetd slots and a class 8 PD because cargo, jumprange and mining will be the same. Thats the magic of military restricetd slots in this game^^ But I am pretty sure such special controllers will have a bigger one, in my opinion.

 

[theBreadSultan]

So you would have the armour itself. A Prismatic Corvette can reach around 47000 MJ shields with all pips in systems. How fast should the repair mechanism be (in mind Type 10 can reach around 7500+ 30 percent resistence with Hull) to counter that if you were under gunfire meanwhile with better longterm damage output? What about weapons and modules? Do you have some numbers in mind?

Btw, it will not change any other aspect of the game if you add military restricetd slots and a class 8 PD because cargo, jumprange and mining will be the same. Thats the magic of military restricetd slots in this game^^ But I am pretty sure such special controllers will have a bigger one, in my opinion.

I don't have enough knowledge to quote specific numbers but with #2 inverse sheild strength

Flat buff with 100% effect if max shield capacity is at 0.
First 1000mj shields reduce buff by 5%
2nd 1000mj shields reduce buff by 10% (so 15% total)
3rd 1000mj shields reduce buff by 20%

The scale would be such that the buff would zero out well below max shields possible.

A bubble build with loads of shields should still out survive an armour tank build.

The balance should be that an armour tank firing a size 1 beam laser and a shield tank firing a size 1 multicannon can happily sit and tank the others damage all day long

 

[Northpin]

You can't have an armour tank,

You cant, indeed but not because limpets
Because missiles and superpen rails and dumbfires and generaly speaking - module targeting.


And you cant really improve the T-10.
It is based on the T9 pancake and it shows.

Cutter is shieldy and speedy
Vette is slightly less shieldy, less speedy, but more maneuverable and it pack a better punch
Anaconda is also less shieldy, less speedy, slightly less maneuverable, but it packs an even better punch

T-10 will never match any of them, because it cannot turn and it cannot outrun its opponents. And it wont match any of the medium combat ships either.
And it does not make any sense to make it faster or more maneuverable - because it's not what a T-10 can be

That's why a better PD will do nothing more than increase the rebuy costs.

While an extra size 7 internal will improve it's general usage, including it's combat abilities and it will make it a better armed trader than a conda or a T9
And a decent miner too, not as good as a Cutter, but better than a T9

 

[theBreadSultan]

You cant, indeed but not because limpets
Because missiles and superpen rails and dumbfires and generaly speaking - module targeting.

Anti armour weapons don't matter.
Just like anti sheild weapons don't matter.

Because sure you can build your ship to be anti-armour, but then you're going to get bested by someone with a shield build.

The issue is that shields regen in combat, armour does not. This is complicated by the fact that a ship with a large shield also having significant armour repair would be OP,

Hence why a repair limpet buff that's reduced more and more as you add shields would be balanced and enable armour tanking

 

[Northpin]

The issue is that shields regen in combat,

No, they dont.
A shield under fire never regen, unless we talk about SCB.
And a long range pulse laser turret is good enough to prevent any shield regen up to 6 km

 

[theBreadSultan]

No, they dont.
A shield under fire never regen, unless we talk about SCB.
And a long range pulse laser turret is good enough to prevent any shield regen up to 6 km

Shields go back up. Armour does not.
So what does pips to sys do then?

 

[Northpin]

Anti armour weapons don't matter.
Just like anti sheild weapons don't matter.

wrong.
IF you run a hull tank - someone will snipe your engines or your powerplant.
And you cannot evade long range super pen rails.

But you can evade torpedoes or mines that might kill your shield gen

Now, if we talk strictly about PVE things are as grim - because NPCs are using the full array of weapons. They have no idea what is meta and they will use cannons, missiles, rockets, rails, multicannons, burst/pulse lasers.
And as a hull tank you will have a really hard time because cannons and rails and missiles have devastating effects on hulls and the internals.

 

[Northpin]

Shields go back up. Armour does not.

only when you are not taking fire. shields do no regen while in combat
valid for repair limpets too (they die the moment you take fire) - but the limpets can fix a damaged hull much faster than a shield can regen.

pips provide energy to the capacitor that will recharge your shields plus they add a fixed multiplier to your shield raw value.
4 pips in shields will increase your shield raw pool by approximately 2.6x

go play with EDSY - it provides really nice info...

 

[theBreadSultan]

wrong.
IF you run a hull tank - someone will snipe your engines or your powerplant.
And you cannot evade long range super pen rails.

But you can evade torpedoes or mines that might kill your shield gen

Now, if we talk strictly about PVE things are as grim - because NPCs are using the full array of weapons. They have no idea what is meta and they will use cannons, missiles, rockets, rails, multicannons, burst/pulse lasers.
And as a hull tank you will have a really hard time because cannons and rails and missiles have devastating effects on hulls and the internals.

Every super pen rail gun, takes the place of an anti-shield beam laser

An armour tank ship, should still explode - this isn't about making invincible ships

It's about making armour a viable alternative to shields at low-med protection levels.

This will make the game better.

Any 'must pick' module in optional internal is a game dev fail.

 

[theBreadSultan]

only when you are not taking fire. shields do no regen while in combat
valid for repair limpets too (they die the moment you take fire) - but the limpets can fix a damaged hull much faster than a shield can regen.

pips provide energy to the capacitor that will recharge your shields plus they add a fixed multiplier to your shield raw value.
4 pips in shields will increase your shield raw pool by approximately 2.6x

go play with EDSY - it provides really nice info...

Shields auto regen after a 2 second gap in taking damage, and once down, will regen at a faster rate to come back at 50% even if taking damage.

Armour will regen after
1 sec to delock target
5 sec to launch limpet and have it attach
1 sec to relock target
(and I'm being generous there, 1vs1)

A ship with point Defence only needs to fly near you, and you can start that armour regen count all over again.

You can also instantly regen your shields by putting pips in systems (though this is finite and at a cost)

Even the simple patch that damage to Hull would pause limpet repair instead of cancelling it would be a step in the right direction imo

 

[Northpin]

Every super pen rail gun, takes the place of an anti-shield beam laser

An armour tank ship, should still explode - this isn't about making invincible ships

It's about making armour a viable alternative to shields at low-med protection levels.

This will make the game better.

Any 'must pick' module in optional internal is a game dev fail.

Hihi...
Are you wondering why the vast majority of explorers are running Anacondas?
Are you wondering why the vast majority of pvp-ers are running FDL?
Or why Dirty drives is the only Drives engineering mode that is being used?

The game is full of meta stuff, for a reason.
What i'm trying to say is the shields are meta, hull tanks are very niche.

And i saying that as someone who did used a hull tank in the current Thargoid GG, and with great success i may say.
And no, i'm not an AXI player - actually the current CG seen my first Gauss kill on a thargoid interceptor. I used to use a 4-large-shard-cannon-Anaconda when i really had to kill an interceptor.

 

[Northpin]

Shields auto regen after a 2 second gap in taking damage

it's at least 5 seconds
and the regen is rather slow, even for fast charge bi-weaves

You can also instantly regen your shields by putting pips in systems (though this is finite and at a cost)

No.
The regen does not depend on PIP, only about the Sys Capacitor.
And it's a fixed rate.

 

[theBreadSultan]

Hihi...
Are you wondering why the vast majority of explorers are running Anacondas?
Are you wondering why the vast majority of pvp-ers are running FDL?
Or why Dirty drives is the only Drives engineering mode that is being used?

The game is full of meta stuff, for a reason.
What i'm trying to say is the shields are meta, hull tanks are very niche.

And i saying that as someone who did used a hull tank in the current Thargoid GG, and with great success i may say.
And no, i'm not an AXI player - actually the current CG seen my first Gauss kill on a thargoid interceptor. I used to use a 4-large-shard-cannon-Anaconda when i really had to kill an interceptor.

There is a difference between meta and must pick tho.

it's at least 5 seconds
and the regen is rather slow, even for fast charge bi-weaves



No.
The regen does not depend on PIP, only about the Sys Capacitor.
And it's a fixed rate.

If you have 1000mj of shields left at 0 pips, and you throw 4 pips to sys, by your maths you've just gotten 1600mj shield regen in under a second right?

I'm not saying shields are op, I'm just saying, as the type 10 is supposed to be able to armour tank, why not put armour tanking in the game.

Eve managed to do this without any issue, and it added to the gameplay.

I get that every game has a 'meta', but there is a difference between meta and must pick.

And I still see no reason why balanced armour tanking can't be a thing, especially as it would improve gameplay and variety, and make for a more diverse meta

 

[Northpin]

If you have 1000mj of shields left at 0 pips, and you throw 4 pips to sys, by your maths you've just gotten 1600mj shield regen in under a second right?

It's not regen, It's a raw value increased by a fix multiplier. If you have 0 shields, after you put 4 pips in shields you'll have exactly 0 shields.

The regen is the value you get in the shield data sheet. Or in coriolis/edsy
Check below, a 3C bi-weave has 1.8 regen rate while active (and not being shot at) and 2.8 while broken.

why not put armour tanking in the game.

It is in the game, but it's rather niche.
Shield tanks are much better in most of the cases

Not sure why you insist on this.
Federal bricks and Alliance birds have really weak shields and they rely on their ability of hull tanking damage.
But it happens that the FDL and Kraits are better ships - generally speaking

 

[theBreadSultan]

It's not regen, It's a raw value increased by a fix multiplier. If you have 0 shields, after you put 4 pips in shields you'll have exactly 0 shields.

I get that 2.6x 0 is 0, but if you wait till your sheidls are 50% then you get insta 'regen'

It is in the game, but it's rather niche.
Shield tanks are much better in most of the cases

Which is why armour tanking could do with a significant buff.

Like I said, it makes sense that at high end - shields win, because we have modules like shield cell banks and shield boosting utilities

But at low-med defence builds, an armour build should be just as viable as a shield build. Each having their own achilies heel (cascade / rails) and unique resistances (heat / explosive)

 

[MightKite]

There is a difference between meta and must pick tho.



If you have 1000mj of shields left at 0 pips, and you throw 4 pips to sys, by your maths you've just gotten 1600mj shield regen in under a second right?

I'm not saying shields are op, I'm just saying, as the type 10 is supposed to be able to armour tank, why not put armour tanking in the game.

Eve managed to do this without any issue, and it added to the gameplay.

I get that every game has a 'meta', but there is a difference between meta and must pick.

And I still see no reason why balanced armour tanking can't be a thing, especially as it would improve gameplay and variety, and make for a more diverse meta

If you have 1000 MJ shields and put 4 pips (pip multiplier times 2,6) into system you have 2600 MJ shields. It is implemented of the reason they do not wanted a way to raise shield regen. The shields become "harder". Everytime you change pips in system, it changes the value like this:

current MJ´s* multiplier of pips

that means you recive same damage but on larger shieldpool thatmeans you recive less damage in the point of view of your "known shield health pool"

this is why a vette can get 47k MJ shields, it is the multiplier. Type 10 has low base shields. the higher the base shield the more you can get out with pip managment.

hope this helps

sidefact: you effectivly regen times 2,6 more shields per second if you fly always on 4 pips in sys some guys do that to get more value out of bi waves which are generally better if there would be no way to raise shield pool by 80 percent per shieldreinforcer (thats even not correct, it is far more)

 

[Northpin]

I get that 2.6x 0 is 0, but if you wait till your sheidls are 50% then you get insta 'regen'

no, it's not a regen.
you can call it buff, but regen? nah.

 

[theBreadSultan]

no, it's not a regen.
you can call it buff, but regen? nah.

Split the difference - re-buff?