The white whale in the room

So when comparing Planet Zoo to the 2 good Zoo Tycoon games, I think that a marine-themed expansion pack is only a matter of time. Now I expect that fish and pinnipeds (ESPECIALLY California sea lions) will be in such a pack but both of these games also have cetaceans (the group of marine mammals that includes dolphins, porpoises, and whales).

Since films like Cove and Blackfish, keeping cetaceans in captivity has become a very hot button topic. For example, whenever the topic comes up on the discord I admin, it often devolves into swearing and name-calling 4 times out of 5.

So should they be in? I say yes. Animals like bottlenose dolphins, belugas, and in some cases orcas, can be kept comfortably in captivity. However, like elephants a while ago, much of this captivity isn't adequate. Thus, I think that Frontier can study the exhibits of places like Indianapolis, Brookfield, etc. that keep dolphins in large, well-maintained enclosures to serve as a guideline for what the player should make.

Also, I really don't think that these games should beat you over the head with a message. They tried that with the polar bear and we now have an animal that needs a ridiculous amount of space relative to other bears.
 
Animals like bottlenose dolphins, belugas, and in some cases orcas, can be kept comfortably in captivity.
This here sums up the entire debate, because those of us on the other side would say "no they cannot". Especially with regards to orca. I don't think Frontier can reasonably include them and say "this is how they should be kept", when even the experts can't agree on that matter. Frontier shouldn't take a moral stance on this topic.
 
@tigris115 I also really hope they will add them. Frontier could actually do a good job with them, I am very sure. Especially because PZ is a game that is about education and conversation aswell, they could add them and teach about them without any real life cruelty involved. My opinion is also they should probaly even add more other rare animals that are not usually kept in zoos, to make people aware of them (but this also unrelated to cetaceans)

I already talked alot about how I think Frontier could add them to PZ in other topics, aswell as why, so I try to keep it short here and not repeat myself so much:ROFLMAO:

Afterall this is a game and Frontier is no authority for any zoo or park and just because they would add them with a space requirement of x, would make no zoo go "Oh, PZ has orcas/belgus/dolphins, lets go and catch some" Or those places who keep such animals go and increase (or reduce) their tanks. Neither do I think players who are already against the keeping of cetaceans in real life (which I agree to) would not suddenly change their mind about it. I am sure most players are very able to differentiate between a game and reality. Only a minority would get really upset about it, oh, and maybe peta, but I guess they already do hate PZ - a game about animals in captivity.

PZ is not totally realistic anyways and is still alot about creativity and freedom, so it would be awesome if they gave us the possiblity to put them in our zoos. And I just cant stop thinking about how beautiful they would turn out - and if they gave us a white orca variant aswell, I would be even more over the moon:love:

Do I really think they will add them? Sadly no, I still have hopes (which I will keep until they either do indeed add them or PZ ends support) but I know the chances are very slim. However I still think my opinion on that kinda matters (ok, probaly not really:ROFLMAO:) since I am a very active player of PZ, nearing 900 hours soon and playing each day (except 2 or 3 I was really unable to play) since release. Aswell as encountering many weird bugs, some of them also kinda game breaking, but still love the game.
So that Frontier knows it has active PZ players, who would really love to have cetaceans in the game.

In the end its totally up to Frontier and as I already said I know our side might be less likley to "win", but that dosent mean we cant say our opinion about it, so Frontier might consider to add them in the future (maybe as the last ever DLC?) But who knows, maybe they already planned them in from the start? If not and they also decide not to add them, then I will have to live with that and hope they go on and either make some Marine park game or another developer does a zoo/marine park game with orcas, so my itch for them gets eased🤣.

Whatever they decide on, I will still continue to play and enjoy the game as long as its captivating me(y)
 
Afterall this is a game and Frontier is no authority for any zoo or park and just because they would add them with a space requirement of x, would make no zoo go "Oh, PZ has orcas/belgus/dolphins, lets go and catch some" Or those places who keep such animals go and increase (or reduce) their tanks.
That is not the point.

I'm struggling to come to terms with just how it is that people do not understand this. There is no real world consensus on whether it is ethical to keep cetaceans in zoos.

It is a hot button issue. What that means is that if Frontier includes these animals in the game, they open themselves to severe and widespread criticism. It means they will be taking a stance on this moral question, regardless of whether "it's just a game" or not. It literally doesn't matter one single bit whether or not their consumers want them or don't want them, because when it comes to political questions the target audience doesn't factor into it.

I'm not saying they never will add them in. They might decide it's worth the risk. I just don't think it's likely, and I think it's silly that people keep trying to justify this idea with such nonsense ideas as "it's just a game".
 
Well, I already said before I do not wish to discuss the topic with you again, as its pointless and we will always just go back and forth and repeat the same things again and again, but considering you quoted me now... I cant just let it stand like that.

There is no real world consensus on whether it is ethical to keep cetaceans in zoos.
That is true, but I honestly think you take this all way too serious. You even have to basically answer anyone who would like to have them added. (and you already told your opinion here aswell, no need to quote me actually)

Its your opinion that saying PZ is a game would be "nonsense" to justify it, I say it is a great reason - the animals are not real and people will get to know about the animals without any suffering. A thing which many "anti-captivities" (not only for sea mammals) actually wish for. Education over media.
I really think Frontier could add orcas and more in a tasteful and educational manner.

I guess you will disagree anyways, but thats how I see it. Being a game is an important point in that matter.

And your political point, well, do you really think so many people would care what a game does? Or do you think games which included crime such as murder/robbery are making a political stance for it? Thats nonsense as I see it.
WP3 only added orcas in mid 2018 and nobody cared. Actually I have to say while it is a difficult topic in real life, its not even that relevant, honestly. At least not in Europe anyways. Actually you hardly hear about the topic nowadays at all if you dont go and seek it out yourself.
So yes, I think saying it would become a "political question" is exaggerating the fact. Maybe Peta would write a bad article (if they didnt already lol) and maybe a few players like you would complain about adding them in the first place, while others would be happy to have them (and some of course complaining about the price of the DLC or why they were not in the base game) and others would not really care.

And real politicans wouldnt even know about it.

Anyways, there will hardly be any uproar about a zoo game adding orcas and other cetaceans (some people will always complain). But nope, I dont see anything coming that would bring Frontier in trouble. Could it cost Frontier some players? Maybe, but too few to even matter (and they already paid for the main game and maybe other DLCs so nothing really lost for Frontier) + many would join in just for the cetaceans in the first place.
Thats a thing I am sure of.

If a real zoo tried to add orcas nowadays, that would of course be a very different thing. And trouble would sure be to come and even real politicans would probaly advocate against it.
But for a zoo game? Sorry, I dont think it would have much of a negative impact for Frontier at all. As I already said maybe very few players would be upset, Peta could be upset and maybe a few small anti-captivity organisations (which hardly anyone knows or cares about) would be disappointed, but other than that outside of the PZ/Frontier community hardly anyone would notice or care about it at all.
And within the community I think most players would not complain about them being added in, but about the DLC price and if its enough content etc. Some that they would have rather like other animals and such.

You may disagree with me and say everything I said is nonsense, but as much as I love PZ - its not that big that if they decided to add cetaceans it would turn the whole zoo and political world in a cetacean-captivity crisis. You seem to think it would, I disagree. Of course in that case we will only know who is right if Frontier ever adds them in. But in that regard I am very sure its me^^

Anyways, I hope you understand my points at least a bit? If not, well, it wont change my opinion one bit and I will continue to hope that one day I see my beautiful orcas in the game :love: I know my chances are not that good, but it dosent matter if you have dream🐬
 
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I don't think adding/not adding this will be a PETA/environmental issue - the game just doesn't runs that smoothly on most computers (lag etc)

Large water tanks could create a lot of extra lag because of the extra animations/bigger animals.
in some JWE topics people mentioned the game-engine maybe can't handle this. Personally I don't know this but this the game-engine could be reason why this would be a problem.

If they add big aquatic animals in JWE, that would be a different discussion.
Don't want to start an aviaries discussion but just to mention that the addition of the aviary to JWE - makes a discussion about aviaries for PZ a bit more realistic.
 
@NL_Mutso This could be a poblem of course. But I still would not fully compare it to JWE. The water there is totally different, not at all like in PZ (and I think the engine isnt the same, but not too sure about that^^ ) PZ water was already created with animals going under water in mind (hippos). So I think if they wanted to make it happen, they could. And maybe they are already working on making it better, if not for cetaceans then at least for animals such as seals, ottters and penguins?
The lag well, its sadly always a problem in bigger parks (and not even those which are as big as the whole map). Though at least for me the problem is still bearable, as I got a good PC 🤣

We just have to wait and see:)
As much as I would love orcas (and more^^ ) I also notice aviaries are probaly alot more likley to be added, but that still dosent rule out marine mammals totally.

Bye the way, thanks for mentioning JWE, I guess that means we now know Frontier is a company that supports the revival of genetically manipulated dinosaurs also in real life🦖
 
With actual DLC releasing form, I'd still prefer to have animals that are seen in zoos, but... here comes the problem. People will always be unhappy of what they'll get.
So... if we gonna get for example species of shark/ray, people will complain why we haven't additional 20 species of fishes that mostly are represented together with rays/sharks in the same tank.
That's why marine pack is quite hard to make. empty tanks seem bad, and.... empty, not natural.
My choices for the marine pack ( that would bring us also diving mechanics ): california sea lion, green sea turtle, pacific walrus, carribean manatee
 
That is true, but I honestly think you take this all way too serious. You even have to basically answer anyone who would like to have them added. (and you already told your opinion here aswell, no need to quote me actually)
If people keep bringing up the same points, then why shouldn't I? There seems to be a pattern with you and others trying to shut down discussion on this.

Its your opinion that saying PZ is a game would be "nonsense" to justify it, I say it is a great reason
It's not. It's nonsense, like I already said. Because from the beginning Frontier has made it clear that it's not just a game. It's supposed to have a message.

I really think Frontier could add orcas and more in a tasteful and educational manner.
They couldn't, because adding them to the game would be the same as advocating their captivity in real life, which, as I say, there is no consensus on.

And your political point, well, do you really think so many people would care what a game does? Or do you think games which included crime such as murder/robbery are making a political stance for it? Thats nonsense as I see it.
That's called moving the goalposts. Games like Grand Theft Auto are marketed as games where you are a criminal. PZ is marketed as game where you have to build an ethical zoo. Add in orca and it's no longer an ethical zoo.

And real politicans wouldnt even know about it.
Irrelevant, politicians don't matter. The fact that you would even bring them up means you have absolutely no clue as to the point I was trying to make.

I hope you understand my points at least a bit?
I do understand your points, I also just think they're pretty much all wrong.
 
@NL_Mutso This could be a poblem of course. But I still would not fully compare it to JWE. The water there is totally different, not at all like in PZ (and I think the engine isnt the same, but not too sure about that^^ ) PZ water was already created with animals going under water in mind (hippos). So I think if they wanted to make it happen, they could. And maybe they are already working on making it better, if not for cetaceans then at least for animals such as seals, ottters and penguins?
The lag well, its sadly always a problem in bigger parks (and not even those which are as big as the whole map). Though at least for me the problem is still bearable, as I got a good PC 🤣

We just have to wait and see:)
As much as I would love orcas (and more^^ ) I also notice aviaries are probaly alot more likley to be added, but that still dosent rule out marine mammals totally.
The current water in PZ is pretty basic, water in JWE is pretty basic as well - I'm pretty sure/convinced that larger tanks, underwater foilage and water features would require more effort from the engine. The current water is just bland/static, which works for the current animals and semi-aquatic - but imo not for larger marine mammals..

Don't have many issues with lag (except for the largest zoo in my franchise). But I think the minimal requirements for PZ wouldn't work for some big expansions - I think the current game needs a lot of extra improvements on performance.

Bye the way, thanks for mentioning JWE, I guess that means we now know Frontier is a company that supports the revival of genetically manipulated dinosaurs also in real life🦖
No, just money. The brand Jurassic Park/World sells easily, same goes with the recently acquired rights for F1 management games.

I don't rule out (big) marine mammals but I don't believe that Frontier will not include this because of sending a "message".
If we don't get it, could be different reasons: Never intented to add this/make a different game about this/game engine doesn't allow this/takes too much effort to create this.
 
Frontier has actually made quite a leap in this game with their water physics. When you look at games of the past like zoo tycoon,planet coaster,and jwe the water elements were very similar. Zoo tycoon excluded water all together as animals had rather lackluster miniature pools they could plop down in. Planet coaster featured water like this game but was only used for animatronics and mostly scenery and voided the ability to create guest functional water parks. Jwe brought the ability to make water but too shallow for swimming animations. And now this game where although animals have the ability to use and swim in the water it’s yet to be seen or a definitive answer to whether animals can swim underwater and use advanced swimming animations. So although the modified engine has made improvements at the end of the day a lot of people will be disappointed like in Planco if the advancements fall short. Nothing most players can’t get over but a slight disappointment nonetheless.
 
If people keep bringing up the same points, then why shouldn't I? There seems to be a pattern with you and others trying to shut down discussion on this.
You said you were tired of this topic before, but yet you go in each and every to comment. And I even said before I dont want to discuss with you again, but not because you disagree, but because we already did discuss it before and I guess we already agreed to disagree, kinda? No piont for me to do it again and again.. And its also because of your attitude. You can say you dont want them in the game, but the way you do it feels always like you are the only smart person who knows the truth and everyone who disagrees with you its just to stupid to get it. (and you banned the talk about those animals in some of your topics aswell, so..)

I'm struggling to come to terms with just how it is that people do not understand this
With quotes like above (but you had worse in other topics) you dont try to stop discussions? Anyways there still was no need to quote me at that time, I was not talking to you. You can also ignore things, you know? (I regret I do not now, but if I dont answer it will see like you won and I gave up lol, but I swear, after that I wont answer you about this topic anymore) And you already did comment before, so there was no need at all.

It's not. It's nonsense, like I already said. Because from the beginning Frontier has made it clear that it's not just a game. It's supposed to have a message.
Sure, but its still a game and real-life orcas also need conversation, as some pods are really in a bad situation. If Frontier added them in the game, they could teach about the problems without any real captive orcas involved.

They couldn't, because adding them to the game would be the same as advocating their captivity in real life, which, as I say, there is no consensus on.
Its not. Because this is not real. As I said before because hardly anyone outside the PZ community would even care. Even if we assume there would be an interview with Frontier about the new orcas/belugas/dolphins and they would be asked if they think its ok to keep cetaceans in captivity, they could even answer something along the lines of "Its a difficult topic in real-life, but we wanted to take PZ as a chance to teach about these beautiful animals and give our players the possibilities to have them in their zoos" And I guess a trained press officer could say it even in a better way.

That's called moving the goalposts. Games like Grand Theft Auto are marketed as games where you are a criminal. PZ is marketed as game where you have to build an ethical zoo. Add in orca and it's no longer an ethical zoo.
I see, only when you bring up a thing like thats its right, all others are wrong again. And I disagree with that, I see many ways how they could add them without hurting their message, but even supporting it.
And after all they are still a business.

Irrelevant, politicians don't matter. The fact that you would even bring them up means you have absolutely no clue as to the point I was trying to make.
And you do it again! I brought them up because I wanted. Becuase you made it seem like should they decide to add them in, they would get criticized and attacked from all sides. Which I think is total nonsense.

I do understand your points, I also just think they're pretty much all wrong.
Fine, I think the same about your points. So lets just agree to disagree then.

Maybe Frontier thinks like you and we will never see orcas in the game, that would be too bad for me, but I would have to live with it and still support PZ. Who knows, maybe they think like me and do add them, which then would be too bad for you. I just hope you wouldnt try and start making problems for them then?

No, just money. The brand Jurassic Park/World sells easily, same goes with the recently acquired rights for F1 management games.
Obviously I know this ;)


Seems like I have many faith in Frontier and their PZ water:ROFLMAO: All we can do is wait and see, I guess.
PZ already offers great possibilities to build underwater viewing, aswell as buliding (useless) tanks already, it would sure feel like a waste if they did not make fully aquatic animals. Hopefully we get seals, sea lions and such at least. And if we are really lucky we might even get cetaceans:)
For me its also far too early to rule them out yet and developers are able to add amazing and great changes to their games, I still cant believe Frontier couldnt make it happen with PZ.
Of course there is still the question if they even want them in their game in the first place. But we will only find out if they either add them in or not.
I will wait till the end😂
 
The debate over orca and whales being added is so sad to read.

The purpose of a zoo is to raise awareness about endengered species, and to make money to protect these species (breeding programs etc).

This kind of game is incredibly useful to learn about these species without hurting them. If adding orca was "a message that says it is okay to keep them in captivity in real life", then the sandbox mode says it is okay to not care about animal well being, and Franchise mode says it is okay to use animals "and force them to reproduce to make money". The possibility to have albinos through inbreeding says that it is okay to force animals into consanguinity, and so on.

I don't think there will ever be dolphins, orcas etc because it would be a huge engagement from Frontier in terms of gameplay, and a lot of people wants so many things for earth or semi aquatic animals that they are in no need for new ideas.

However, if they ever did, I would choose to see it as an educational purpose, and I would definitely love to learn more about these animals. I never saw one in reality, and I would be curious to see their size compared to the guests, elephants etc, to learn what they eat. Documentaries are cool, but we can't choose what we want to see and how, so adding them in a game would be a really good way to learn about them in a respectful way.
 
@felinora99 Thanks for this(y) Your post actually pretty much summed up my thoughts on this topic in a much shorter and more eloquent way than I ever could.

I also understand the chances for us to get them are very low, but if they did it would not have to go against their message at all, but could really be educational.

As I said before, there is nothing we can do but to wait and see what Frontier has in store for us:)
 
Yes, this is a porcelain cabinet I'm staying away from. And Frontier should do that as well.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no need for them to be in the game.
 
Great apes, polar bears and elephants are just as controversial.. yet they are in the game, I just see a huge cetacean bias in this debate when there are animals already ingame with similar issues. All these animals are either large, highly intelligent, very social with long lasting social ties or have huge home ranges in the wild and for some all of the above, kinda seems the points made when we have animals already with similar welfare and moral dilemmas
 
Great apes, polar bears and elephants are just as controversial.. yet they are in the game, I just see a huge cetacean bias in this debate when there are animals already ingame with similar issues. All these animals are either large, highly intelligent, very social with long lasting social ties or have huge home ranges in the wild and for some all of the above, kinda seems the points made when we have animals already with similar welfare and moral dilemmas
Those aren't as controversial as cetaceans. Yes, some are a bit controversial but cetaceans are on a different level.
You could argue the same for albinos etc. :D

Like mentioned before, we'll just wait and see. I'm glad to see that the expectation level is low - that's being reasonable/realistic.

The water comment, the current water is fine for natural and semi-aquatic animals. I just expect more when cetaceans should make it in the game - the current water doesn't look right enough for that aquarium/tank "vibe".

Imo, I think it comes to game engine options or limitations instead of moral/ethical issues.
 
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Those aren't as controversial as cetaceans. Yes, some are a bit controversial but cetaceans are on a different level.
Those aren't as controversial only because of the success of a certain biased documentary. From a more logic/neutral point of view, the truth is that, as Joe99 said
All these animals are either large, highly intelligent, very social with long lasting social ties or have huge home ranges in the wild and for some all of the above
However, I think that part of that image of "cetaceans are more sensitive to captivity" may also be because the average elephant enclosure is better than the average dolphin tank. But that doesn't mean that you couldn't add even orcas and belugas and design super good habitats for them. Just a bit like what they did with the "super special polar bears" which I didn't like to be honest, but here I guess it's a bit more justified.
 
I don't agree with adding cetaceans to the game if only because they would be very boring. Big body of water, no decorations, no natural features. no enrichment items, no feeding stations and done. Their care in captivity is done one on one trainers that pretty much deal with them and feed them all day, every day and I don't see the employee system having a massive overhaul just to accomodate a plain porpoise pool. I could see seals and sea lions added though (like at my local zoo) as they do a lot of swimming but also needs areas of land to interact and shelter as well as only needing periodic human interaction much like many other captive zoo animals. I would expect various penguin species would have similar requirements, ingamewise too. Warm water little penguins would be a fun addition to the game but I agree, the water system would need an overhaul to do them justice.
 
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