The white whale in the room

I don't agree with adding cetaceans to the game if only because they would be very boring. Big body of water, no decorations, no natural features. no enrichment items, no feeding stations and done.
Hmm, what makes you think all of that wouldnt be in the game with them?
If we now asume they do add them, then I am 100% sure they would get enrichment items and feeding stations. Enrichment items can already be placed in water and float, so they might even be able to use some of the balls already in game for cetaceans (aswell as making some new)
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Aswell as you can already decorate and put plants underwater, if you are a talented builder I am sure you could already built Atlantis😇 (I am not😅)
Its very likley if they would make them, they would also come with new decorations and special plants. (Seeweed and such^^ )

The main techincal problem I see myself is actually that a tank would need a special entrance. I have no idea if such a thing would be easy or very hard (impossible?) to make. Which I guess also depends alot on Frontiers plans when they started to make the game - if they indeed planed in fully marine animals (even if maybe not any mammals) from the start, its probaly no problem. If they didnt it might be harder. But yeah, again I cant really tell:unsure:
But enrichment items, decorations and plants dont look like they would be a problem at all. (Ok, maybe they wouldnt have a need for any seeweed or other water plants at all, but decoration would still be possible) They could be of course, I just dont think they are.

The human intercation thing is a point that might be true, but personally I dont see it as a problem, as it also goes for many animals already in game. Elephants and Rhinos for example do interact with their keepers on a daily basis aswell. Depending on the zoo in direct or protected contact. Apes are also having lots of contact with their keepers in real zoos (though always through the cages in this case, unless for currently hand raised offspring, of course). Actually the more I think about it almost all animals in real zoos do have some kind of contact with their keepers that is more than feeding and cleaning, many also get kinda trained for transport and/or medical purposes. This is not always done in sight of the guests, but its there.
Considering its already missing in PZ (especially for Elephants) I wouldnt miss it for cetaceans either.

(On a side note, the keepers walking in predator habitats as its nothing are also not very realistic either😉)

Anyways, I will still remain hopeful, but I do know the chances to get them are probaly under 10% or so😅
 
Those aren't as controversial only because of the success of a certain biased documentary. From a more logic/neutral point of view, the truth is that, as Joe99 said
No its not. Almost nobody has seen that documentary (me neither). I know what documentary you are talking about because on this forum it's the first time I heard about it. Don't assume that people base their opinion on a documentary. Every time the "pro-cetecean" somehow tries to fit this argument in. I don't think i've seen any "anti-cetecean", starting the argument with this documentary.
It was controversial before that - at least somewhere around the time the Free Willy movies came out. That's as far as I (personally) can remember. So approx. 20-25 years ago.

Just because you create an argument that's not there and nobody mentions, doesn't make his comment logic/neutral. Tbh, i'm surprised people consider elephants/big apes as controversial. I'm pretty sure the general public doesn't share that opinion. Ceteceans have always been a topic in many ways, and most people have a stronger opinion about this.

Hmm, what makes you think all of that wouldnt be in the game with them?
It safe to assume that if they add these animals, a lot of features have to be added. Big marine mammals wouldn't work for me - without improvements/new big features.
 
No its not. Almost nobody has seen that documentary (me neither). I know what documentary you are talking about because on this forum it's the first time I heard about it. Don't assume that people base their opinion on a documentary. Every time the "pro-cetecean" somehow tries to fit this argument in. I don't think i've seen any "anti-cetecean", starting the argument with this documentary.
It was controversial before that - at least somewhere around the time the Free Willy movies came out. That's as far as I (personally) can remember. So approx. 20-25 years ago.

Just because you create an argument that's not there and nobody mentions, doesn't make his comment logic/neutral. Tbh, i'm surprised people consider elephants/big apes as controversial. I'm pretty sure the general public doesn't share that opinion. Ceteceans have always been a topic in many ways, and most people have a stronger opinion about this.
there has been a lot of stories and debate about elephants/ great apes in zoos, for example Maggie the African elephant from a zoo in Canada, lived by herself, and was stuck in a small indoor barn for most of the year. she almost died so the zoo sent her to a Sanctuary in California, same with the elephants at toronto zoo ,and dozens of others all over the world, and a lot of zoos have either had renovated their habitats or phased elephants out of their zoos and send them to sanctuaries, i use elephants for an example here because they are similar in a lot of ways to larger ceteceans like orca becuase they are both large, can wander vast areas, highly intellgent and have complex social sturtures. if you want to learn more about the controversy i suggest watching the Doc An apology to elephants or the fifth estate story about maggie and other elephants
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URHIhH9lEYo
 
No its not. Almost nobody has seen that documentary (me neither). I know what documentary you are talking about because on this forum it's the first time I heard about it. Don't assume that people base their opinion on a documentary. Every time the "pro-cetecean" somehow tries to fit this argument in. I don't think i've seen any "anti-cetecean", starting the argument with this documentary.
It was controversial before that - at least somewhere around the time the Free Willy movies came out. That's as far as I (personally) can remember. So approx. 20-25 years ago.

Just because you create an argument that's not there and nobody mentions, doesn't make his comment logic/neutral. Tbh, i'm surprised people consider elephants/big apes as controversial. I'm pretty sure the general public doesn't share that opinion. Ceteceans have always been a topic in many ways, and most people have a stronger opinion about this.



It safe to assume that if they add these animals, a lot of features have to be added. Big marine mammals wouldn't work for me - without improvements/new big features.
yeah, it also makes sense for cetaceans to be more controversial, as the most stimulation they get from the wild, is... swimming hundreds of miles and travelling the world. Many land animals travel far, too, but they live in anenvironment with nooks and crannies to explore, forests and caves, burrows and trees. With ocean animals, you are taking a creature that has a MASSIVE open x-y-and-z axis environment, so to speak, and putting it in what is practically a fully enclosed body of water. Might as well be an actual cage. Meanwhile, land animals like apes can climb trees, dig in the ground, walk through caves, search under things, jump onto rocks, rummage through foliage, etc.... it's barely comparable.
 
It safe to assume that if they add these animals, a lot of features have to be added. Big marine mammals wouldn't work for me - without improvements/new big features.
I think it's even safe to assume there is no chance of getting them at all.
 
yeah, it also makes sense for cetaceans to be more controversial, as the most stimulation they get from the wild, is... swimming hundreds of miles and travelling the world. Many land animals travel far, too, but they live in anenvironment with nooks and crannies to explore, forests and caves, burrows and trees. With ocean animals, you are taking a creature that has a MASSIVE open x-y-and-z axis environment, so to speak, and putting it in what is practically a fully enclosed body of water. Might as well be an actual cage. Meanwhile, land animals like apes can climb trees, dig in the ground, walk through caves, search under things, jump onto rocks, rummage through foliage, etc.... it's barely comparable.
Also the media contributes on this one. When an Orca is put in a park/recovery centre, the media/protestors have a voice and this doesn't happen with other animals. They only report on deaths/births/something unique.

there has been a lot of stories and debate about elephants/ great apes in zoos, for example Maggie the African elephant from a zoo in Canada, lived by herself, and was stuck in a small indoor barn for most of the year. she almost died so the zoo sent her to a Sanctuary in California, same with the elephants at toronto zoo ,and dozens of others all over the world, and a lot of zoos have either had renovated their habitats or phased elephants out of their zoos and send them to sanctuaries, i use elephants for an example here because they are similar in a lot of ways to larger ceteceans like orca becuase they are both large, can wander vast areas, highly intellgent and have complex social sturtures. if you want to learn more about the controversy i suggest watching the Doc An apology to elephants or the fifth estate story about maggie and other elephants
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URHIhH9lEYo
Sorry, the documentary is a pass for me. A lot of documentary-makers present a situation from their POV, and a lot of times leave out some other facts, to prove their own point. Same applies to that other documentary. Maybe from some people's POV this documentary could be biased :D If you google positive results from elephants in zoos, you'll most likely get a news report from a zoo (their POV).

Maybe it's a controversy in some parts in the world, not a thing in Europe. A bit surprised people start comparing a completely different living conditions from Orcas with Elephants. I think Haylemills POV really gives more in-depth info why people could think differently on these matters.
Personally I think the overall idea of putting an animal in a tank (a non-natural looking exhibit) creates a different POV, compared to putting animals in natural looking exhibits. Cages/concrete/thick metal bars would immediately spark controversy on living conditions for a lot of people, no matter what animal.
 
It safe to assume that if they add these animals, a lot of features have to be added. Big marine mammals wouldn't work for me - without improvements/new big features.
Oh, I agree! You know, I am very biased for getting orcas and other dolphins (but mainly orcas) in the game, but for me if I state my wish for orcas that means "with new/improved features to actually make them work" by default:) I usually dont state this extra as this is pretty "normal" way for me for think. So I was a bit suprised someone would think if Frontier actually did add them, they wouldnt even make enrichment items for them.
Because would they add them, I am sure they would come with lots of new stuff and new features (of which some might be even coming with a free update alongside such a DLC) and of course be able to get enrichment. Which is especially important for orcas, so I am 100% positive they would get it aswell^^

I do have some wishful thinking its also technical possible, but who knows?😅
 
This game is not 100% correct, let's be certain about this first. While the game is one point correct, one point is the opposite and wrong.
Anyway
Why are we trying to create problems when there are many ways to discover these fascinating creatures in this game and add them to this game? Wouldn't it be better for everyone to find a solution that both sides can compromise instead of leaving the frontier in a difficult position?
For example, they allow us to buy orcas only from water parks. No catch from the wild. Or with a simple scenario, we can host killer whales that can only live under human care. Or we can add killer whales as mod to this game with a little support for people making Frontier mod. Or it could be a message to encourage real-life water parks to make more natural habitats. These are just a few of the solutions. And I thought of this in just 10 minutes right now. At the moment, I have one more solution, as the result of the low welfare of the orca should not only be your park not being protested, there should be big penalties, for example, They can removed killer whale licenses from our park, this can happen for other big creatures, for example elephants. In this way, the game will remind us that we need to be more careful for large animals.
Think positively. Don't think of concrete tanks directly. Or don't think of water parks that are boycotted directly. Everyone has already made the necessary explanations. Make your creativity talk. :)
Also @tigris115 , I 100% agree with what you say. (#1)
 
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You know I could imagine a player who has a deep obsession with marine stuff of how he/she played zoo tycoon 2 marine mania to make it look like to have Atlantis theme, tropical beach theme that players can have in the future DLC pack. We may know that there's going to be many marine aquatic animals that can be albino too.
 
I usually dont state this extra as this is pretty "normal" way for me for think. So I was a bit suprised someone would think if Frontier actually did add them, they wouldnt even make enrichment items for them.
Same for me, when someone mentions penguins - i expect the features will be added as well. Same goes for the kangaroo etc..

Mentioned a couple of times, I think this works better in a seperate game. I know people want to mix land/big marine mammals but personally don't fully like the idea. We likely disagree on that last one, that's fine. Not against it from a environmental POV or anything like that. :D

I don't think the game runs that great. Not many problems but with really large zoos sometimes really laggy (Franchise) Also a reason why such large marine mammals (imo) wouldn't work, my expection is that we also need an increase in mapsize etc. If there are significant improvements in the next months (and this game runs better than the first weeks !), I could reconsider that position. But the performance improvement from November and April wouldn't be enough.

Personally I think people would accept dolphins more than orcas. Just because they have a better public image :D
 
Will Frontier add sea animals, but they won't have enrichments? I think this would be the last thing Frontier would do. :D Frontier will surely add a lot to the game. enrichment items, naturalization items, rocks, a simple tank system, and many more. I have absolutely no doubt about it. I would be really surprised if they only add sea animals.
Mentioned a couple of times, I think this works better in a seperate game.
I agree with that. I have said this many times before. and I said that the water structure is insufficient for marine animals. but the real problem is as you say. people want to mix all the animals. for example, polar bears are in this game. If there was a separate game about sea animals, people would have a hard time making a choice. for example, the animal sea lion that will put people at a impasse. :)

I am very curious what Frontier will do about marine animals in the future. As you said, we may need larger maps. But as a result, slowdown(low Fps) problems may occur in the game and it already exists. Also, I do not find it right to exaggerate the space requirements of sea animals.
According to the size of the animals, the need for a suitable space and depth will be good, otherwise no one will want to use these animals. And people will ask them to reduce the need for space, Or they will have to turn off the animal welfare option.
Although the water-filled areas in the game are clean, it is very dark and blurry, and they have to come up with a solution.

Personally I think people would accept dolphins more than orcas. Just because they have a better public image
You are right. We don't have a problem with dolphins anyway.
 
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Mentioned a couple of times, I think this works better in a seperate game. I know people want to mix land/big marine mammals but personally don't fully like the idea. We likely disagree on that last one, that's fine.
Only slightly:) I do have quite a few reasons, why I would prefer them in PZ, though. Mixing them with land animals isnt even my main point at all^^.
I mean, to name a few of my reasons, PZ is already there and if they do add such a pack, it would probaly come out within the next 2 years. A new game however would probaly take alot longer until it came out (if they do it at all) Frontier would need free resources to even work on it and if they got the idea just now, I could see it would probaly at least take 5 years until such a game could be released at all. Unless they are by chance already working on such a project^^

A new game would also mean you would have to pruchase it for around 50€ again (and there would probaly be DLCs again), while if such a pack came out for PZ, the price would probaly be around 10€ - 30€ (depending how they would handle a big marine pack or if they would make more smalles parts, like one with seals and such and the other with cetaceans etc.) I would still totally buy it, but I would prefer it as a PZ DLC^^

And if they do such a new game, it could also mean they would decide not to put seals, seals lions, penguins and many more mostly/fully aquatic animals in PZ, but in the new game. From a business point of view this makes sense as to make more people buy their new game and not only the cetaceans lovers.

The good point about such a game would be of course that no one could come and say it goes against the game message at all, as Frontier could advertise such a game as fun and not ethical. And those who are still against it in a game could chose to not to buy it and ignore it.:D (If they still decide to take it to riot against Frontier, then you cant help them at all anyways...)

So yeah, I would totally buy such a game and be happy to at least get beautiful orcas in a new Frontier game, but for the reasons above (and a few others) I would prefer them in PZ;)

Also a reason why such large marine mammals (imo) wouldn't work, my expection is that we also need an increase in mapsize etc. I
Hmm, Orca males are usually 6 – 8 m long (very big ones might reach 9 meters, but thats rather rare as far as I know) while females are around 5 – 7 m long. In my opinion thats not too big for the game to handle at all. (Might be worng of course, but you can totally compare both to the elepahnt and giraffe sizes) However, at least for me orcas are also the biggest to add in the game. I never talk about "true" whales that also cant be kept captive in real life. (Though as this is a game I wouldnt mind it if they did, but I dont even see it happen at all - if we get orcas we would already be lucky enough:ROFLMAO:)

Oh, I wouldnt mind bigger maps at all, though I have to say that so far I hardly ever reached half of the size in even my biggest zoo, where most habitats are even alot bigger than required, so I am not sure if its really needed, but I wouldnt mind it at all^^

Personally I think people would accept dolphins more than orcas. Just because they have a better public image
Hmm, not sure if that is really true. I mean, there is also "The Cove"... and those who are really against adding orcas in PZ are (or should) also be against all other dolphins in captivity. In real life the small dolphins are hardly doing better than the orcas in captivity (who are "just" big dolphins) and have a very high dead count aswell. (and many are for banning dolphins in zoos aswell in real life, which is actually understandable)
But yeah, for me I already said that real-life dosent really matter in that situation and that they could teach about those animals in a cruelity free way.
And at least from what I saw here (or reddit/youtube and such) I think many people are actually fine with both in PZ and only very few are totally against adding them in game at all.
 
Will Frontier add sea animals, but they won't have enrichments? I think this would be the last thing Frontier would do. :D Frontier will surely add a lot to the game. enrichment items, naturalization items, rocks, a simple tank system, and many more. I have absolutely no doubt about it. I would be really surprised if they only add sea animals.
It would be interesting to see which Enrichment-Items Frontier comes up with for these Animals. I hope we will get a new Type of Gate or something similar so we wouldn't need to have Land in the Tanks. I also really hope for Kelp and other oceanic Plants so we can create more natural looking Tanks.

Although the water-filled areas in the game are clean, it is very dark and blurry, and they have to come up with a solution.
Maybe they could add a second Water-Filter that is way stronger. Are there other realistic Possibilities that aren't harmful for Animals and Plants?
 
A new game would also mean you would have to pruchase it for around 50€ again (and there would probaly be DLCs again), while if such a pack came out for PZ, the price would probaly be around 10€ - 30€ (depending how they would handle a big marine pack or if they would make more smalles parts, like one with seals and such and the other with cetaceans etc.) I would still totally buy it, but I would prefer it as a PZ DLC^^

And if they do such a new game, it could also mean they would decide not to put seals, seals lions, penguins and many more mostly/fully aquatic animals in PZ, but in the new game. From a business point of view this makes sense as to make more people buy their new game and not only the cetaceans lovers.
Ehm.. I'm not sure such DLC would be € 30,-. Could easily be 40-50. (the marine pack for ZT and ZT2 were also really expensive compared to the base game)
I don't see why animals from PZ (like seals/penguins if they add it) wouldn't be included in another marine game. Maybe a bit cheeky but if you already have PZ in your steam library - you have access to those animals as well? And I'm thinking from a business POV a bit more and a new game fits that POV better.

I am very curious what Frontier will do about marine animals in the future.
Same here, really curious. Personally I think semi-aquatic is something that will (hopefully) happen. Even if big marine mammals aren't an option - it would be a decent middle-ground option.

Hmm, not sure if that is really true. I mean, there is also "The Cove"... and those who are really against adding orcas in PZ are (or should) also be against all other dolphins in captivity. In real life the small dolphins are hardly doing better than the orcas in captivity (who are "just" big dolphins) and have a very high dead count aswell. (and many are for banning dolphins in zoos aswell in real life, which is actually understandable)
But yeah, for me I already said that real-life dosent really matter in that situation and that they could teach about those animals in a cruelity free way.
And at least from what I saw here (or reddit/youtube and such) I think many people are actually fine with both in PZ and only very few are totally against adding them in game at all.
That's why I didn't mentioned the RL situation. To me, that's a different discussion. I just think the general view on these matters is that dolphins are more acceptable/popular. Dolphins have a good public image (tv shows). And for example: the movie Free Willy was about releasing a captive Orca to the wild and another Orca movie is a bit more Jaws. And the other name - Killer Whale doesn't help either
And there's an organisation for a lot of animals, majority of people don't care about those organisations or never heard of them.

Hmm, Orca males are usually 6 – 8 m long (very big ones might reach 9 meters, but thats rather rare as far as I know) while females are around 5 – 7 m long. In my opinion thats not too big for the game to handle at all.
I'm not talking only about size but habitat needs as well (X/Y/Z) and the overall size of the habitat (agree with Kaan - they shouldn't over-exaggerate those) but they need a lot of space.
 
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I agree with what @Tuky says about a separate game.
I look hot at the idea of a separate game. better water physics and many more features. But as I mentioned before and as, there will be problems about animal list. I think that a separate game will be incomplete in terms of content. I look warmly at both ideas but I would prefer it as a DLC. :)
It would be interesting to see which Enrichment-Items Frontier comes up with for these Animals.
There are a few or two I have seen on this subject. :)
Orcaenrichment Orcaencrichment
(I added the videos only to show the enrichment items)
other enrichment items are standard balls or something. there are actually a wide variety of enrichment toys for marine animals. The enrichment items in these two videos caught my attention.
I hope we will get a new Type of Gate or something similar so we wouldn't need to have Land in the Tanks.
I think it's not that hard. I think they can do it.
Maybe they could add a second Water-Filter that is way stronger. Are there other realistic Possibilities that aren't harmful for Animals and Plants?
it's not really about the water filters, it's about the game itself. they need to change their color. or new water type such as ocean water can be added to the game.
but in fact, I would love to see big water filters in the game, it would be very strange that only one small water filter would clean your dolphin tank. :D

I'm not talking only about size but habitat needs as well (X/Y/Z) and the overall size of the habitat (agree with Kaan - they shouldn't over-exaggerate those) but they need a lot of space.
my personal opinion on this animal space;
I did this by trying in the game and also looking at the elephant size. my purely personal opinion.
minimum 7000m² area and minimum 5m depth will be good for a dolphin. For an orca, an area of 25000m² would be good and a minimum depth of 15m would be fine. 10000m² area and 10m depth are suitable for a beluga. these are for only one animal. these numbers are all minimum values. nobody will want to deal with more animal areas. :) these numbers may seem funny to you. :D again I say this is my personal opinion.
 
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Ehm.. I'm not sure such DLC would be € 30,-. Could easily be 40-50. (the marine pack for ZT and ZT2 were also really expensive compared to the base game)
I don't see why animals from PZ (like seals/penguins if they add it) wouldn't be included in another marine game. Maybe a bit cheeky but if you already have PZ in your steam library - you have access to those animals as well? And I'm thinking from a business POV a bit more and a new game fits that POV better.
Oh, that could be of course, as I already said it might depend how they add them, either in a big pack or maybe 2 or 3 smaller marine packs. I would totally love a big pack for marine animals with seals, otters, penguins, orcas, dolphins, belugas etc. But considering how the past DLC were, I dont really see it. So I think they might do at least to packs, one for example with seals, sea lions, sea otters and penguins and then the other fully cetacean with orcas, belugas, a kind of smaller dolphin and maybe a porpoise. Though neither of the first mentioned animals would have to be in a marine pack at all, they would also fit others. Anyways, thats why I think it would at least be a bit cheaper as a pack than a new game. As you said it may be wrong, though. But who knows? A big pack would be more expensive of course, but if it were more smaller ones with important features already added before, it could come out become a cheaper than a fully new game - which could also be well over 60€.
I cant really say anything about the prices of the old ZT games, as I never played the first and 2 only for a kinda short time a long time after it was already released. More about Wildlife Park, but while I really enjoyed the series you cant really compare it to PZ at all:LOL:
(though penguins, seals and so on would not even have to be in a clasical marine animals DLC by default, maybe an Antarctica pack could do)

But it would still take alot longer than a DLC, thats for sure.

I am not sure if you misunderstood me or I misunderstand you now, but what I mean is not, that they would not be in a new game, but because of the new game they would not be in PZ at all. I think that would even make sense, as if Frontier now decided to make a Planet Aquaria/Planet Marine Park, they could spare the work to make seals, sea lions, otters, penguins etc. work in PZ. Considering these are all highly demanded animals for PZ, if they decided not to include them in PZ at all, but only in the new game, they could gain alot more new customers for it. Because then not only those of us who would have liked cetaceans and/or fish would have to buy the new game, but also those who had "just" wanted semi-aquatic animals.
In my own business point of view this makes lots of sense. Its probaly how I would do it if I was in charge, as you could get a lot more people to buy this game then. Alot probaly wouldnt buy it if they already had seals (and so on) in PZ.

Thats why I fear if Frontier is now up to the idea of making a new separate game, we might not get either for PZ.

Though I still also think that with a DLC for PZ Frontier could still save a lot more time/staff/money and make alot more money aswell than with a new game. Sure, all of that could be totally wrong and maybe you are right, but thats at least how I view the business point.
And because of that I still think the better option would be to add them in a DLC for PZ and not a new game. Though if I had to chose between a new game for them and not having them at all, I will od course chose the new game^^

That's why I didn't mentioned the RL situation. To me, that's a different discussion. I just think the general view on these matters is that dolphins are more acceptable/popular. Dolphins have a good public image (tv shows). And for example: the movie Free Willy was about releasing a captive Orca to the wild and another Orca movie is a bit more Jaws. And the other name - Killer Whale doesn't help either
And there's an organisation for a lot of animals, majority of people don't care about those organisations or never heard of them.
Yeah, I dont like the real life stuff here either, but in that case I hardly know what to say to your argument because in my point of view its a kinda weird and rather about real life (or maybe I misunderstand what you really mean.) Those who are against orcas in PZ for real life reasons, are also against all dolphins in the game at all. Also I would disagree with your view that orcas dont have a good public image nowadays. They are loved by many. And from what I saw from here, but also other places like reddit, youtube, steam a German fan forum and more, many people would love orcas in PZ.
And anyways if it would be true what you say - that orcas dont have a good image even currently, then in my opinion this is an even better argument to add them in PZ, to teach people more about them and make them change this view:)
Though I still keep my opinion that the overall PZ community would be fine with having orcas in the game.
(And wasnt Flipper a free/wild dolphin in the show? Its long ago since I saw it, but I think he was - only in the show, of course)

I'm not talking only about size but habitat needs as well (X/Y/Z) and the overall size of the habitat (agree with Kaan - they shouldn't over-exaggerate those) but they need a lot of space.
Okay, got it;) Sounded like just the size of the animal would already be a problem, even without the habitat size considered.

I agree Frontier would totally have to find a good compromise between doing orcas "justice" but also keep them enjoy-able for the players. (If they do them at all 😅)

a minimum depth of 15m would be fine.
Hmm, I would even say 20m would be better^^ At least in my opinion. But hey, if they decided for 15m I guess that would be also fine^^ I would probaly make it 30 meters anyways.

I honestly have to say that I find the space needed for almost all animals in the game kinda weird already anyways. Sometimes I have habitats which I think myself are already overcrowded, but then I see in their needs that their habitat is still (at least, often even more) twice as big as they need. So yeah, I kind of wonder about the space needs of many animals since the beta...

it's not really about the water filters, it's about the game itself. they need to change their color. or new water type such as ocean water can be added to the game.
Yeah, I also think a new water type would be a good solution(y)
 
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I agree @Tuky.
so basically we're talking about the same things about separate game. :)
Hmm, I would even say 20m would be better^^ At least in my opinion.
It can be 20m. But it will not be too exaggerated.

The debate over orca and whales being added is so sad to read.

The purpose of a zoo is to raise awareness about endengered species, and to make money to protect these species (breeding programs etc).

This kind of game is incredibly useful to learn about these species without hurting them. If adding orca was "a message that says it is okay to keep them in captivity in real life", then the sandbox mode says it is okay to not care about animal well being, and Franchise mode says it is okay to use animals "and force them to reproduce to make money". The possibility to have albinos through inbreeding says that it is okay to force animals into consanguinity, and so on.
@felinora99 You are quite right. Also, humans send or sell their good-genetic animals to another zoo, but they leave animals with poor genetics into the wild...
 
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Just my 2 cents worth... the nice thing about the DLCs is that you don't have to buy them if you don't want to. Or... you dont have to put the animals in your zoo if you want the "stuff" but not the animals. That is the great thing about this. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to put an orca in your zoo.

Personally I dont believe real orcas should be in captivity. That being said of PZ added them in a DLC I would definitely put them in my zoo. Its a game yall. You aren't sentencing a real animal to a life of captivity for every one you add in game. I feel the same about elephants and apes as I do about orcas and dolphins.

Its a game guys have fun and don't take it so seriously.
 
So should they be in?
A short and crisp "no" from me.

OK - now for the long answer:
Arguments against it can be read on previous postings.
The only way I would imagine I could enjoy a "marine mania" in PZ is when they do it "the other way round" - meaning: big mammals like dolphins and orcas and big fish are free in the ocean and we get the possibility to build a viewing area into it with big under water windows and perhaps cages to dive in and meet the animals.
 
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Its a game guys have fun and don't take it so seriously.
That is besides the point. It's a game built around building an ethical zoo. Like it or not the game has a message behind it. In any case, if they spent time developing a marine DLC that only some players want, then that's time not spent developing a more conventional DLC that would be more likely to please everyone and not be controversial. "Don't like, don't buy" has literally never, not once, been a good argument. This isn't a pair of shoes that you can avoid in favour of another pair of shoes, it's literally the only decent zoo game on the market.
 
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