The Wings discussion thread

[Deleted member 38366]

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[Sanderson]

While 4 is clearly not enough and is caused by the stupid, self limiting, decision to link multiplayer by P2P, it will cause some player interaction where needed. Want to travel through that anarchy system in Open with a cargo hold full of Rares? Well, don't unless you have back up.

Why? The chances of being in the same instance with regular players, not to mention wings, is so low now one can hardly be worried about backup. 4 player wings makes the chances of a healthy connection even less probable so our chances of being in the island will be even lower. Unless they artificially increase the likelihood of meeting wings by forcing it.

 

[Anopheles]

Why? The chances of being in the same instance with regular players, not to mention wings, is so low now one can hardly be worried about backup. 4 player wings makes the chances of a healthy connection even less probable so our chances of being in the island will be even lower. Unless they artificially increase the likelihood of meeting wings by forcing it.

Matchmaking is meant to be improved.

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Actually the thing that really defeated the Luftwaffe was British radar.

OT, sorry, but it was probably inability to get oil from anywhere that finished them off.

 

[Magic Man]

Here we go again. FD introduce new features and their perfectly valid reasons for the design decisions around them and a group of people are unhappy because, in their (experienced, qualified?) opinon, they know better how it should have been done.

Anyone in software development will have experienced the above, it's one of the most irksome things of the job. The customer thinking they know how to do things better than you...

 

[Sandmann]

OT, sorry, but it was probably inability to get oil from anywhere that finished them off.

Well yeah, that possibly had a lot to do with it too. Hard to stay in the air without it. I think you're talking about later in the war with their air defences... I was thinking more Battle of Britain.

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Unless they artificially increase the likelihood of meeting wings by forcing it.

It's quite possible the match making servers will push wings together.. they're already talking about USS's that are designed with wings in mind and I have to assume that this will only apply to players in wings as for a solo player it'd make USS's a killing field... so if they can tailor USS's to match with wings, why can't they prioritise putting multiple wings in the same instances if available?

 

[Anopheles]

Suprised Player Transactions are not in Wings

When you have to spend ten minutes scooping up cargo in order to pay someone for a task undertaken, then something is not quite right.

Because it's a £40 game (with no subscription) with no player market, any arguments about 'farming' are mute. Sure intimidation could be a thing, but that could be solved with a simple 20 minute cooldown period. That still makes dropping cargo a preferable method of pirating.

It makes no sense to have no credit sharing in a future universe and seems another pointless strangulation of the simulation.

 

[Anopheles]

Here we go again. FD introduce new features and their perfectly valid reasons for the design decisions around them and a group of people are unhappy because, in their (experienced, qualified?) opinon, they know better how it should have been done.

Anyone in software development will have experienced the above, it's one of the most irksome things of the job. The customer thinking they know how to do things better than you...

By your logic, If they didn't want public opinions they wouldn't have opened a public forum. Also, wisdom of crowds, means they may even take notice of the hitherto unthought of consequences.

 

[clivewil]

hmm i've already seen the damage that occurs with 4 on 1 in an RES on the occasions the 'wanted bug' has happened and the cops all of a sudden attack you

i absolutely hate the idea of the whole game becoming like that in solo, we either won't be able to go anywhere undamaged or alternatively will have to run away from every conflict, which means BH will become a non-event. i refuse to be forced into trading or playing in open, so i'm not looking forward to 1.2 myself

 

[snotface]

what ever the game holds for us in the future I for one am just enjoying the game for what it is now. When the next patch comes out and the new ships are available for us to buy I do not think many people will be bothered as it will open so much more of the game.

Yes this game isn't perfect, but it is getting to be interesting. I believe that once wings is released bounty sharing will be available, just as it would be for 4 pirates will be able to take on a single player ship. I think this will make this game a little more interesting because instead of it being a solo open play game it will become a multiple/gang system which will make all aspects of this game become more fun.

 

[Neflite]

In defense of P2P and instancing

While I completely agree that the instancing + P2P + four pilots per wing is limiting, I believe it also has some benefits:




Apart from the obvious issue that large FD owned servers would be cost prohibitive and could possibly require a subscription, there are more practical problems with going with the "one big world server" solution.


While it would greatly add to immersion it would also lead to a number of very frustrating issues.

Namely:

a) Traffic jams

I fly a clipper, I shudder at the thought of trying to fit my ship trough the letterbox in Yembo (or any other community event for that matter) while at least 50 other commanders are entering/leaving the station at the same time. It would be like playing frogger with an aircraft carrier.

This is also closely related to the issue of any large scale community event attracting more ships than the server can handle. I still remember the opening of the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj. I was really looking forward to it only to be met by crippling lag that made me log off after 5 minutes. And this is not some mom and pop MMO we are talking about here, this is WoW, a true heavyweight in the category, a game that has huge amounts of cash to spend on servers.


b) Epic cluster****

While a huge space battle with 100 player ships and a bunch of NPC-s sound great on paper in practice it would be a huge mess that very few computers could handle. Put 100 ships in close proximity, now add all their trails and then add all the weapons fire. Instant epilepsy.

Also any large scale battle with huge wings will inevitably lead to the pain-train focus fire issue, where wings will converge on a single target destroying it in mere seconds. This issues is still present in wings of 4 but is much less of an issues. Being shot at by 4 pythons while painful isn't an instagib like being fired on by 4 anacondas, 3 pythons, 2 clippers, 5 cobras and an eagle.


c) Each player counts

In a wing of 4 my every move and action matters, I am more relevant to my wing, my actions and contribution are more noticeable and fulfilling. In a raid of 40 people not so much.
I prefer a game where I can see my contribution without installing a damage meter.

Not to mention the fact that a wing of 4 can talk a lot more easily than a raid of 40.


d) Better communication via the HUD

Realistically most people in most situations will not be on teamspeak and even those that are will not all have mics or want to talk.

The problem is further exacerbated if we are talking about ad hoc groups with random people. We simply need a HUD to help with communication.
I want to be able to swoop in and help some random guy in a sidewinder who I have never met before and be able to see the status of his shields without actually having to target him.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

If you play World of tanks or world of warplanes or warthunder (air or ground forces) you'll already have seen how even just one good 3 man platoon can dominate a team of 15 players.

My clan often set up multiple 3 man platoons in WoT and attempt to get them into the same game on the same side, when it happens those 6 players, on coms and with a coordinated plan can wipe out a team of randoms in minutes usually with no loses so i can perfectly well understand FDs reluctance to allow large wings in an instanced game.

people complaining about the size now would soon be moaning if a private group of 10 players in a wing all dropped into an instance and attacked everything that was entering and exiting a station, we already get enough complaints about loan pirates shooting up traders or miners or even players in fighting ships in supposed safe areas.

Exactly my experience in Mechwarrior. And Tanks. And Planes.

Two elements of two is nearly the perfect air-to-air formation. I have just a little experience at this...

Yes, they should have called it "Flights", or "Flighting", but they went for the catchier (but incorrect) name.

 

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Anyone in software development will have experienced the above, it's one of the most irksome things of the job. The customer thinking they know how to do things better than you...

Well, Magic, I work in the oil industry software... And sometimes is hard for us (geologist) make the developers understand what we need. In this case is easier, because most of the developers are gammers too..., but we can help them too.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Exactly this. Players operating as a functional group and using real group tactics can easily overwhelm much larger numbers of individuals. There's a multiplication factor when you form a cohesive, functional group.

Correct. Google or Wikipedia for "Lanchester's Laws".

 

[almostpilot]

So, i understand it correctly. IF Four NPC´s in anacondas interdicted one player in SOLO mode,that is a problem. So hire NPC´s it is a needed feature for the game, when playing in solo mode...FD is starting to shot on his own foot.

 

[Sandmann]

Michael Brookes wrote this in the latest dev update, for those who haven't seen it:

One aspect was the why we selected four pilots as being the wing size. When it came to deciding on a maximum wing size, we decided that four was, in this particular case, the magic number. In addition to the obvious benefits of getting multiple wings into a single session and ensuring that a single wing can always be outnumbered, there was the less sexy, but equally real issue of making sure the feedback for wings integrated well with the HUD.

So there's THEIR explanation of the number... though I'm sure the impact on P2P networking was also a factor (another non-sexy one). Obviously they intend to put wings together, or at least permit wings to come together... though there's no mention of wether the match making will force this.

As well as the multiplayer centric Wings there will be additions that apply to everyone whether you play in multiplayer or in solo. Changes to USSs are being made so you can scan them in advance to gain an impression of the scale of the signal – beware the larger scale USSs as they might be too dangerous, especially if you’re alone!

Interesting, looks like they WON'T be match making solo/wings to USS's after all.

The Wings update doesn’t just aid players – NPCs get the ability to fly in groups of their own, so while flying in supercruise you can encounter flights of authority ships, pirates or a trader groups.

They haven't mentioned if players can join NPC wings, or recruit NPC's to their own wings.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

If you are worried about "intimidation" by pirates, make player transactions only possible between friends. And yeah I was wondering the same thing as there will be a lot of traders wanting to hire muscle to protect them and player transactions make a lot of sense in such an environment.

 

[Herik]

I have more than three friends! Will Wings later be expanded to allow more than four players? Or Meta-wings (squadrons?) of coordinated Wings? And what is this weird obsession with the magic number four in multiplayer games anyway? I can understand the need for limits for technical reasons, but surely something like eight or sixteen would be achievable?

I like the direction Elite is going with this, but I do feel a bit restricted by a four-player limit.

I'm glad you feel a little restricted by this; depending on my play style I could be too, (not likely). The limit was implimented so that an individual 'wing' could not take over a star system.

 

[Sergio Smegolia]

You've played the wings update! Wow! How is the vulture?

Seriously, I agree with the credit transfer but let's wait till we see what they have given us eh?

 

[Sandmann]

While I completely agree that the instancing + P2P + four pilots per wing is limiting, I believe it also has some benefits:
[stuff]

Well reasoned and well written. +1 to you sir.

 

[Hayta]

Piracy would benefit a lot from it. Holding for ransom?