General / Off-Topic Those Pesky Users!

I was relating what had happened with the FSS debate with some of my Lord High Programmer associates.

Unanimous Response: "About time someone told off those pesky users!"

Discuss.
 
I was relating what had happened with the FSS debate with some of my Lord High Programmer associates.

Unanimous Response: "About time someone told off those pesky users!"

Discuss.
Without the pesky user, the High Lord Programmers wouldn't be so high, now would they? I was once a "High Lord Programmer", and I can tell you our hubris is boundless. That's why so much software is rubbish - most programmers think too highly of themselves and take the opinions of their users for granted. There are exceptions, obviously, and I like to think that I put my customers needs over my over my own opinions of "what is best", but the response you quote really does sum up what's wrong with this industry.
 
Without the pesky user, the High Lord Programmers wouldn't be so high, now would they? I was once a "High Lord Programmer", and I can tell you our hubris is boundless. That's why so much software is rubbish - most programmers think too highly of themselves and take the opinions of their users for granted. There are exceptions, obviously, and I like to think that I put my customers needs over my over my own opinions of "what is best", but the response you quote really does sum up what's wrong with this industry.
This really depends on circumstances.
I'm not disagreeing with you - if you provide any kind of service to the customer, be it a software or a cup of coffee, the customer satisfaction SHOULD be on top of your priorities.

BUT

There is a slight caveat - if a customer requests something that is not in line with the quality you wish to provide or functionality you envisioned or consistency you strive for, you should ignore the request. A plumber will not let you tell him how to weld a pipe, because he knows better than you. It's not disrespect, he just wants to do a good job.
Similarly, in the software industry, you can let customer tell you what features they would like, but ultimately you are going to deliver a software that works as a priority over a software that meets all the requirements but doesn't work correctly.

That's why I'm very hesitant to push the "Customer is always right" policy, because it doesn't ensure quality, nor does it ensure a satisfied customer, actually. And with products aimed at a group of people, rather than just one customer (Like software almost always is), even if you satisfy the one customer you've listened to, it doesn't mean you will satisfy the rest.

In other words, I am a firm believer in letting developers do their thing and realize their vision, because it's the only way to guarantee a solid and consistent (albeit not perfect) product.

TL/DR: If you are an expert in your field (I.e. know more about the stuff than your customer), you actually DO know "what is best" and listening to your customer is not always the best thing to do.
 
why programmers? they usually do their job. in this case, they have taken on challenges that were above their experience. on some they have done surprisingly well, on some others the product is just defective. e.g. elite shouldn't even be sold as a pvp title in light of architectural shortcomings, both regarding performance and consistence, and the utter failure in addressing cheating. but then there isn't any 'high international standard of pvp implementations', right?

programmers are just a cog in the wheel. talk about marketing, strategies and product design. and, very specially in a company with such spectacular rapid growth: politics. this last factor is huge.

then again, design by commitee is a receipt for failure. but that did appeal to the company early on, and allowed to kickstart all this and get the ball rolling. the company that started this has little to do with the one that finished it. in the end, however, they have done what they wanted.

users should simply talk with their wallet.
 
Last edited:
programmers are just a cog in the wheel. talk about marketing, strategies and product design. and, very specially in a company with such spectacular rapid growth: politics. this last factor is huge.
Not always. At Frontier, I'm pretty sure lead programmers like Adam(s) and (Space Loach Guy before them) are calling the shots, or at least have some significant sway. That's not unusual for a smaller title like ED. Now if we're talking a huge title like Uncharted, then you're dealing with credits the size of an Avengers movie where many of the programmers are just cogs. That's not to say that there aren't some "cog" programmers at Frontier who only do what they are told, but I've yet seen much evidence that Frontier has a whole team dedicated to marketing, strategies, and product design. They still feel like small-scale indie developers, at least when it comes to ED.

users should simply talk with their wallet.
Done. Though I think a huge part of the ADS / FSS controversy was that people bought product A, and then Frontier did a switch-a-roo and gave them product B after funds were transferred from our wallets. Now many of us may choose not to reward Frontier with any more money (cosmetics or their other products like JWE), but we can't go back in time and not buy ED based on what it will become vs. what it was.

ps - I love the FSS, and my gripe is with all the bugs and half-baked design, but I do understand why the "bring back the ADS" crowd are so upset. Unfortunately empathy is not always a programmer's strongest character trait.
 
Though I think a huge part of the ADS / FSS controversy was that people bought product A, and then Frontier did a switch-a-roo and gave them product B after funds were transferred from our wallets
I'd just like to point out that it was people who bought the product A who demanded for it to be changed and as they weren't able to all agree on how or into what it should be changed (even if that mattered), devs went and chaged it to product B.
There are of course genuine problems with product B, but people whose complaining instigated the change and who are now complaining that "that is no longer the game they've bought" come across kind of pretentious and ungrateful.
 
Not always. At Frontier, I'm pretty sure lead programmers like Adam(s) and (Space Loach Guy before them) are calling the shots, or at least have some significant sway.
space loach guy should be sandro and i'm pretty sure he's not a programmer. anyway, i get your point. of course there are lead programmers, even locally revered gurus, and usually they are taken into account about what can be done and what is too much. that's still a long shot from calling the shots, their input will always be constrained to the specific field they are good at. say, server stuff, stellar forge, 3d engine, etc. e.g. adam is a producer (statisically: a mediocre ex-programmer :devilish:) and as such i expect him to weight all those inputs and, yeah, call some actual shots, definitely not all of them.

That's not to say that there aren't some "cog" programmers at Frontier who only do what they are told, but I've yet seen much evidence that Frontier has a whole team dedicated to marketing, strategies, and product design. They still feel like small-scale indie developers, at least when it comes to ED.
this is the thing, it's kind of a mix because they are still assimilating that growth. they are indy-ish in product, but act like activision in presence and communication. and they have just built a high throughput game factory, starting from a small for hire developer, the staff has increased manifold and all that is incredibly hard to manage and takes time and a lot of energy.

elite is also special because it has lived through this transition and, maybe more important, has little to do with their other work (both recent and old). it is indeed nothing like frontier themselves imagined at start, where they were still clearly pushing a niche title, and talking about vr, linux, offline mode, ship boarding, etc. consoles came a few years later out of the blue and are a clear sign of that shift in priorities. namely: into turning elite into the revenue machine their other titles are. i guarrantee you, over a cold dead thargoid wrapped in elephant leather, that decision wasn't made by any programmer :D

Though I think a huge part of the ADS / FSS controversy was that people bought product A, and then Frontier did a switch-a-roo and gave them product B after funds were transferred from our wallets. Now many of us may choose not to reward Frontier with any more money (cosmetics or their other products like JWE), but we can't go back in time and not buy ED based on what it will become vs. what it was.
well, that's life. i didn't suggest to sue them either. it's just how it is, and the money paid, at least from my perspective, they duly earned, no problem with that. it's just that the product has indeed changed, and is not what we would have expected, which was a possibility, and also understandable. dead horse, jim. i will likely buy their next expansion too, because all in all it's a good game. what i won't do is giving them additional profits for junk while fundamental issues are still pending. i did that the first year, now the whole 'support the developers' psalm some people still chant today is really embarrassing, and imo works against the quality of the game. well, if people are fine with that and feel like spending money on crap ... well, that's their decision.

add: the real gripe i have with frontier is having used elite as a launchpad for their big business dreams. that's not really fair, specially not for the people who supported them at start. but, business is business.
 
Last edited:
that's not really fair, specially not for the people who supported them at start. but, business is business.
You can't realistically expect a growing company to live off of just one product and consider every other product other than "your favourite one" a betrayal of your trust.
Elite still has the biggest dev team of all FD games, too.
 
Did Starman hijack Ralph's account?
You get a 'warning'.

For the record The problem with Elite Dangerous isn't the 'Programming'. Its the fact that they don't play the game like 'users' so don't understand those issues.
I haven't bought planet coaster or Jurasic park but its not because I don't think the 'programming' isn't any good.

If I say anything legit I get moderated off or 'upset' someone or worse just get 'ignored'
I am also a High LORD Programmer.

The reality is Frontier is a public listed company with shareholder who probably never played any of the games.

If it want for 'customers' like me Elite Dangerous would not even exist.

There is also a diversity issue in the company so I would probably not get hired on those grounds either.

Its a Monday so I can either spend my trying convincing a clueless recruiter to put my cv forward for what is probably a non existed role the is actually really boring or just go and play golf.

Since the invention of mobile you can do both.

So yeah I am responsible why mankind has not progressed further because 'mankind' is not interested in what I have to offer.

I made my money in my 20s.

Like I said 'You hav e al been 'warned'

I still of the opinion the 'mistake' I made was including the word 'man' in my username since non gender specific user names don't get half these issues.
 
Last edited:
The problem is that the majority of customers do not know the complexity of the development.

They imagine that it’s enough to say to make.

The customers are pretentious ignorant who should be more humble and listen the wisdom of the good developers.

:)
 
All the infrared's so missed the pun. :)

I have worked with:

2 US Senators
Generals
University Chancellors
Neurosurgeons
Astronauts
High level programmers (one wrote the F-18's core software)

Which one of these had the highest arrogance, and least amount of empathy?

Hint: Not the senators. They need votes.
 
All the infrared's so missed the pun. :)

I have worked with:

2 US Senators
Generals
University Chancellors
Neurosurgeons
Astronauts
High level programmers (one wrote the F-18's core software)

Which one of these had the highest arrogance, and least amount of empathy?

Hint: Not the senators. They need votes.
The generals, perhaps ?
 
Top Bottom