Thrusters explained in one simple table (Rating and Mass)

Cliffson

Cliffson
​Hi CMDRs

First off thanks to the contributors to these threads for inspiration and data:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=164451
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139844

EDIT: also for Taleden's excellent research and a handy graph: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182057&p=2804064&posted=1#post2804064

From my previous thruster research (link at end) I noticed that all ships seemed to have the same ratio improvement in speed and turn time for A rated thrusters at 50% optimum mass, and the same held at other mass thruster combinations I had tested. So I decided to test a few ships across thruster grades A-E at optimum mass ratios of 90-50% (in 10% incriments). The following table summarises the improvements in performance over a ship operating at optimum mass (All thruster ratings have equal performance at their optimum mass)

Mass/OptimumEDCBA
90.00%0.50%1.00%2.00%2.00%2.00%
80.00%1.50%2.50%4.00%4.50%4.50%
70.00%2.00%3.80%6.00%7.00%8.00%
60.00%2.50%4.50%8.00%10.00%12.00%
50.00%3.00%6.00%10.00%13.00%16.00%
Speed increases by the % shown. Turn time changes by [Turn time/(1+improvement%)]

The ships used for testing were: Hauler, Vulture, Clipper, ASP; not all ships were tested for all combinations but there was plenty of overlap.

The A(50%) figure has also been tested on Cobra, sidewinder and DBS as well as the above ships.

Note there is a degree of smoothing in the above table due to the limitations of measurement (speedometer only shows nearest m/s, turn rate is average of 10 rotations)

For the new High performance Thrusters see this Graph:

http://imgur.com/0SfMTVc

%change vs mass

Note that the speed and agility bonus have been decoupled unlike for the standard A-E thrusters.

For Ships base speeds and rotation speeds see my other thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182465


Understanding Thrusters in 2.1 outfitting screen:

With the new outfitting screens you can see better what thrusters do.

There are six thruster stats to consider. Minimum mass, optimum mass and maximum mass. Maximum multiplier, optimum multiplier and minimum multiplayer.

When your ship is at minimum mass you get the maximum multiplier applied to your speed and turn speed.

When your ship is at optimum mass you get the optimum multiplier.

As you get heavier you approach the minimum multiplier (not tested where this is may be maximum mass but that's very hard to reach).

The Engineer upgrade multiplies all three multipliers up b the same amount. so if you roll a +25%, a standard A rated drive will apply 1.125 minimum multiplier, 1.25 optimum multiplier and 1.45 maximum multiplier. (original values .90,1.00,1.16)

They seem to follow the same curves as the previous calculations so it's just a straight % boost to speed, acceleration and pitch.
 
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askavir

askavir
This data proves what I felt while flying the Clipper. Despite its agility rating of 2 (?), the Clipper is one of the most agile ships in the game, and surely by far the most agile of the "big ships".

Can't understand where its agility 2 rating comes from. When I "upgraded" from the Clipper to the Python I was shocked by how cumbersome and sluggish the Python is for an agility 6 (?) rated ship.
 
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Scifimyth

S
As I understand it, the Agility rating appears to be based off of the lowest of all the aspects of turning, covering Yaw, Pitch and Roll. The Clipper is supposed to have the one of the lowest Yaw (side to side) rates of the large ships, but has an advantage in the Pitch and possibly the Roll. So under their system, even though it may be a 7 (guessing) for Pitch, it is rated at a 2 for Yaw. It isn't very clear, but then again neither is a lot of the numbers systems in the game we have seen.
 

Ralph Vargr

Ralph Vargr
Hmmm. "D" doubles your performance, "C" roughly doubles it again, while "A" is a diminishing return over "B" and "C".

From an explorer's standpoint, "D" and "C" are the most that you would need. "A" is for combat. "B" is an unhappy middle child.

Duly repped.
 
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Cliffson

Cliffson
Scifimyth said:
As I understand it, the Agility rating appears to be based off of the lowest of all the aspects of turning, covering Yaw, Pitch and Roll. The Clipper is supposed to have the one of the lowest Yaw (side to side) rates of the large ships, but has an advantage in the Pitch and possibly the Roll. So under their system, even though it may be a 7 (guessing) for Pitch, it is rated at a 2 for Yaw. It isn't very clear, but then again neither is a lot of the numbers systems in the game we have seen.
Click to expand...

Cheers, that might explain it? Do the adder/viper have a comparitively good yaw or roll, does anyone know, as that could explain their lacklustre pitch rates.
 

Snarfbuckle

S
Would be nice if it was consistent with ship maneuverability values.

Spitballing ideas
-Each agility rating is a base 1% roll/yaw rate
-Each PIP is Engines add an additional 1% roll/yaw/pitch rate per maneuverability rating
-Each engine rating adds an additional 1% to roll/yaw/pitch rate per maneuverability rating
-Speed above/below 50% adds or detracts an additional 1% per 10% from center.
-Hull mass below treshold for engine adds an additional 1% per 10% below minimum hull mass


And the T9 should really have a minimum of 1 and not zero.

So a ship with 10 agility and 4 pips to engine and A rated engine gains 20% roll/yaw/pitch rate at 50% speed and 15% at 100% speed or 25% at 0% speed.
An Anaconda would have 12% roll/yaw/pitch rate at 50% speed or 16% at 0% speed.

Large ships should not be agile in any direction and should have to sacrifice weight to gain agility.
 
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Cliffson

Cliffson
I agree it would be good to have a more understandable/prescribed agility rating.

Currently pips have more effect than anything with each half pip adding about 9% (see second link in op).
 

Colonel North

Colonel North
Ralph Vargr said:
Hmmm. "D" doubles your performance, "C" roughly doubles it again, while "A" is a diminishing return over "B" and "C".

From an explorer's standpoint, "D" and "C" are the most that you would need. "A" is for combat. "B" is an unhappy middle child.

Duly repped.
Click to expand...

Yarp. I now only seem to use A or D spec thrusters. A for combat/ multi. D for explorer and trade. The only exception is C grade on the Vulture. Its so agile anyway the gain is not worth the power draw
 

Ralph Vargr

Ralph Vargr
All this fits into the basic ship design/outfitting model: There are exponential cost increases, and diminishing returns for rating increases.

I think many of us use "A" power plants and jump drives (power, heat, and range), but are choosy over everything else. The thrusters will get shorted before shields will, as an example. I have a bias for "A" sensors. You would have to be daft to keep "E" life support and power distribution (the latter of which needs to be "A" on combat craft).

"D" equipment works for everything except pure combat craft. And, saving mass increases performance in normal space, as well as in jump performance. It also greatly reduces operational costs. "A/C/D" are the only ratings that make sense.
 

Sire

Sire
Cliffson said:
​

Mass/OptimumEDCBA
90.00%0.50%1.00%2.00%2.00%2.00%
80.00%1.50%2.50%4.00%4.50%4.50%
70.00%2.00%3.80%6.00%7.00%8.00%
60.00%2.50%4.50%8.00%10.00%12.00%
50.00%3.00%6.00%10.00%13.00%16.00%
Click to expand...

Sorry but just one thing I don't understand: if there is an optimal mass it should mean that the closer you are to that optimal mass the better shoud be thrusters' performance, right?

And that the farther you go from that optimal mass, both being heavier or lighter, the worst should be thrusters' performance, right?

But from the table above I deduce that best performance is reached at 50% of optimal mass, right?

Now, the question is: why is it called optimal mass if there's room for better performance further lowering mass?

And more: why the table stops at 50% of optimal mass and doesn't go on until 10% optimal mass?
 
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Banzz

Banzz
Sire said:
And that the farther you go from that optimal mass, both being heavier or lighter, the worst should be thrusters' performance, right?
Click to expand...

A long time ago, in a post far, far away from now, a developer said that ships lighter than their thrusters optimal mass have an improved flight model
 

Sire

Sire
Banzz said:
A long time ago, in a post far, far away from now, a developer said that ships lighter than their thrusters optimal mass have an improved flight model
Click to expand...

Thanks for your answer.

But to what the term "optimal" applies then if lighter ships can benefit from a further improved flight model?
 
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Banzz

Banzz
Sire said:
Thanks for your answer.

But to what the term "optimal" applies then if lighter ships can benefit from a further improved flight model?
Click to expand...

Ultimately, only the dev can put his exact thought on the subject with the words they used.

I guess it is just a term to say : "hey, you have a ship with this mass so these thrusters are fine to use with"

Also, higher rating/class thrusters have their pros (integrity, maneuverability, max speed, ...) but they also have cons (weight, price, power draw, etc.). Flight model is only one parameter among others
 

TargetLost

T
Cliffson said:
​Hi CMDRs

A summary of various ship's 360' turn times and speeds at optimum mass is below for reference:

SPEEDAgilityRotate(50 Throttle)Rotate (0 Throttle)
Sidewinder22088.921.58
Hauler200610.1725.11
Eagle240107.41616.07
Adder22089.623.76
Viper320610.4225.77
Cobra28069.16622.57
DBS28088.7321.5
DBE242510.523
ASP25069.68
Vulture21098.6616.45
CLIPPER30029.522.54
Python230612.71330
Click to expand...
~
That explains a lot to me. I recently bought a Phyton comming from an Annaconda and I was surprised how it was so much harder to out turn the enemies.
In fact the Phyton has a significant dissadavantage to the smaller ships.
~
While you can outturn smaller ships with an anaconda C drive with 0 thrust the same is impossible with a phyton and an A Drive!
The only useable fight speed with the phyton is the blue Range and that makes it inferior to fight with. Pilot skill can compensate that but only to a certain degree,
~
I read that the nerfed the phyton in the past but since I didn't own one then I did not really read it.
~
I have to say that the Phyton is nice to fly and fight but this disadvantage in it's master discipline makes it very qestionable as fighter to me.
 

Cmdr. Numa

Cmdr. Numa
askavir said:
This data proves what I felt while flying the Clipper. Despite its agility rating of 2 (?), the Clipper is one of the most agile ships in the game, and surely by far the most agile of the "big ships".

Can't understand where its agility 2 rating comes from. When I "upgraded" from the Clipper to the Python I was shocked by how cumbersome and sluggish the Python is for an agility 6 (?) rated ship.
Click to expand...


That rating 6 for the Python is still the pre-nerf rating, and it was quite right back then. The nerf turned the Python into a brick, but the rating wasn't changed to reflect that.
 

Cliffson

Cliffson
TargetLost said:
~

While you can outturn smaller ships with an anaconda C drive with 0 thrust the same is impossible with a phyton and an A Drive!
The only useable fight speed with the phyton is the blue Range and that makes it inferior to fight with. Pilot skill can compensate that but only to a certain degree,
Click to expand...

I've yet to get a conda (can afford the hull now just need credits for upgrades) but this just seems wrong from a design perspective. that said I'm unlikely to complain when I get it.

Banzz said:
Ultimately, only the dev can put his exact thought on the subject with the words they used.

I guess it is just a term to say : "hey, you have a ship with this mass so these thrusters are fine to use with"

Also, higher rating/class thrusters have their pros (integrity, maneuverability, max speed, ...) but they also have cons (weight, price, power draw, etc.). Flight model is only one parameter among others
Click to expand...

Yeah the choice of the word optimum is an odd one, unless they do mean it in the most favourable term, as in it's the point where you recieve diminishing returns for Credits/powerdraw/utility etc
 

Renegade Roach

R
Cmdr. Numa said:
That rating 6 for the Python is still the pre-nerf rating, and it was quite right back then. The nerf turned the Python into a brick, but the rating wasn't changed to reflect that.
Click to expand...

This is nonsense, the Python is far from being a 'brick' unless you fail to use directional thrusters. By comparison I also fly FDL, Vulture, DBS, Viper and recently Clipper on a regular basis. While the Python requires good pips management and thruster use it is more than capable of bringing fixed weapons to bear.

On that note, and with respect to the OP; any maneuverability test which ignores directional thrusters is pretty meaningless.
 
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