To Solo Play Players: If You Could Disable PVP, Would You Play in Open Play Mode Instead?

[Brrokk]

That's the Mobious Group.

Fdev still needs to improve the group management tools to help manage it but that would be a lot easier than creating a separate PVE environment.

I've read people complaining about being unjustly chucked out of Mobius with no possible appeal because it's a private group. I think FD should stop lazily outsourcing the issue and run a proper PvE mode themselves.

 

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It would also stop console players without premium platform access playing the game at all.

Why is that? Couldn't they just connect to empty lobbies?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Why is that? Couldn't they just connect to empty lobbies?

Console players without premium platform access cannot play in either of the multi-player game modes - they can only play in Solo.

 

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Console players without premium platform access cannot play in either of the multi-player game modes - they can only play in Solo.

They have no match-making I understand. If they can't be made a match the connect to empty lobby. Would that not be a way to toss them in instead of setting up an entire new mode?

 

[Robert Maynard]

They have no match-making I understand. If they can't be made a match the connect to empty lobby. Would that not be a way to toss them in instead of setting up an entire new mode?

Which "empty lobby"?

 

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Which "empty lobby"?

They play on an entire different branch of the game, right? I don't really know how console stuff works. I was thinking about the PC MP lobbies of course, but there probly isn't any crossplay.

 

[Misty_Dark]

What do people think about a Pilot’s Federation Non-Aggression Flag?

We’ve been discussing on Lave Radio the quitting points of MMOs and of course the griefing / seal clubbing issue came up, which is a big quitting point for a lot of new players and then a huge discussion about Crime and Punishment. When compared to other MMOs (I'm looking at you EVE!), the Open/Pvt/Solo model works quite well but I will admit that you lose a sense of community if you’re only flying in pvt / solo. It's one of the reasons I like the Mobius group so much but I haven't seen much activity there now.

I wondered what it would be like if they scrapped open/pvt/solo options and replace it with PVP/PVE flag, so only commanders with the PVP flag switched on and damage/pirate/ram each other. The one reason I’ve had trouble with this in the past is that how do you explain it in Lore, then it hit me.

As players, we are all members of the pilot’s federation; the pilot’s federation has code in the weapons that dials down the damage output of weapons to zero if you’re firing on another player ship, limpets won’t lock on and ramming won’t work (OK bit of handwavium required for that one) if the target has the Pilot’s Federation Non-Aggression Flag switched on (similar to the report crimes flag). As this only works against Pilot’s Federation ships, then we can shoot or be shot by NPC ships as normal.

“Ah But what about people switching that flag on and off half way through a fight,” I hear you cry. Well, you can only flip that flag if you’re ship is either docked, or landed on a planet. So for the duration of the next trip you make, you are either in PVE or PVP mode.

Now this does mean that several other options are now possible; -

• If you have to block someone for abusing you, then blocking a player will block them in the chat, if you don’t want to be attacked by them, then have the flag in PVE mode switched on.
• They can add PVP only missions where you can only complete the mission if you’ve had the PVP flag on until it’s complete (with appropriately higher rewards)
• You could flag certain commodities to be only carried in PVP mode. Imagine that they could integrate that into CGs. One where the items required are PVP only and one which is PVE only (Obviously not competing CGs because that would unfair).
• (Or the old favourite) If you are playing powerplay, then you’ll have to play it with the PVP flag switched on.

The downside?

It's a huge re-write of part of the game and potentially months of development and Live Balance fixes as the system is implemented. Judging by the current state of the game, these kind of changes will be far down the list.

the problem with PvP flag is that it only solves part of the issue. there are still ways for griefers to abuse the remaining game mechanics for nefarious actions...

As we would still have collisions on... In most other MMO's, we do not have collisions, because that creates situations that could be abused, like how griefers in The Division went on a "coffee break" in the doorway to the room where you received and turned in quests, and this was in a safe zone, and we have already seen the very same in Elite, players jamming themselves in the station mail slot... So this one situation we already know we will have to deal with, as it is currently an issue today... and if we remove Solo and Private group, that would not be an option no longer available for players to get around this problem.

And this is not the only problem we would have with the collision between players. If we allow the PvP control collision damage, to avoid players ramming other players to death, or abuse station mechanics to suicide on speeding CMDRs, we would create bouncing castles, where players could use other players ships to fling themselves in unpredictable ways. we have already seen how SRV's can be flung in really unpredictable ways, and we have also seen ships and onfoot CMDR's experiencing other various strange collision behaviour, where one is flung very far away. This is yet again, not something unique to Elite, several other games also have strange behaviour in their physics engines, giving similar strange behaviour from time to time...


So lets turn of collisions then. That introduces a slew of other issues. So instead of me colliding with your ship, I can now fly straight through it... how would that look? should we make the ship transparent when they "collide"? if we do not, I can use this mechanics to block your view.. and if we only do this between players ships, you could still crash into NPC ships, and if I can block your view I can certainly make you run into NPC ships... this would somewhat solve the issue of players parking their ships in the mail slot. but if you could not see what is behind the blocking ships, you could wedge yourself in there with a NPC ship that you did not see travelling from the other direction. And turning of collisions, will remove alot of the "immursion" of the game, in most other MMO games, this is not really a big thing, but in ED, your ship is a big part of the experience, and they are often big and they need space, and flying through other ships would most likely degrade this experience. And being able to fly through some ships but not others, would make for a more inconsistent experience, that would more than likely be exploited by griefers in one way or another. Just like how they today exploit the suiciding on speeding CMDRs in the no fire zone around a station.



So there is quite alot more than just a rewrite, you have to go and check EVERY mechanic where player can interact with other players and do damage to each other and test and make decision on how do handle this and that, and we will end up with worse mechanics as a result of this.


I am not againt a PvP flag system, but I cannot see how such a system could be implemented without wrecking havoc on so many levels on how the game is experienced.

 

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the problem with PvP flag is that it only solves part of the issue. there are still ways for griefers to abuse the remaining game mechanics for nefarious actions...

As we would still have collisions on... In most other MMO's, we do not have collisions, because that creates situations that could be abused, like how griefers in The Division went on a "coffee break" in the doorway to the room where you received and turned in quests, and this was in a safe zone, and we have already seen the very same in Elite, players jamming themselves in the station mail slot... So this one situation we already know we will have to deal with, as it is currently an issue today... and if we remove Solo and Private group, that would not be an option no longer available for players to get around this problem.

And this is not the only problem we would have with the collision between players. If we allow the PvP control collision damage, to avoid players ramming other players to death, or abuse station mechanics to suicide on speeding CMDRs, we would create bouncing castles, where players could use other players ships to fling themselves in unpredictable ways. we have already seen how SRV's can be flung in really unpredictable ways, and we have also seen ships and onfoot CMDR's experiencing other various strange collision behaviour, where one is flung very far away. This is yet again, not something unique to Elite, several other games also have strange behaviour in their physics engines, giving similar strange behaviour from time to time...


So lets turn of collisions then. That introduces a slew of other issues. So instead of me colliding with your ship, I can now fly straight through it... how would that look? should we make the ship transparent when they "collide"? if we do not, I can use this mechanics to block your view.. and if we only do this between players ships, you could still crash into NPC ships, and if I can block your view I can certainly make you run into NPC ships... this would somewhat solve the issue of players parking their ships in the mail slot. but if you could not see what is behind the blocking ships, you could wedge yourself in there with a NPC ship that you did not see travelling from the other direction. And turning of collisions, will remove alot of the "immursion" of the game, in most other MMO games, this is not really a big thing, but in ED, your ship is a big part of the experience, and they are often big and they need space, and flying through other ships would most likely degrade this experience. And being able to fly through some ships but not others, would make for a more inconsistent experience, that would more than likely be exploited by griefers in one way or another. Just like how they today exploit the suiciding on speeding CMDRs in the no fire zone around a station.



So there is quite alot more than just a rewrite, you have to go and check EVERY mechanic where player can interact with other players and do damage to each other and test and make decision on how do handle this and that, and we will end up with worse mechanics as a result of this.


I am not againt a PvP flag system, but I cannot see how such a system could be implemented without wrecking havoc on so many levels on how the game is experienced.

You give most of the answers to the questions you bring up yourself already. Collision on, transparent fly-through. Immersion takes a back seat - it is a price to pay for griefer-less MP. That should deal with the bulk of the griefing. The rest are the clever ones and for those you have a team of people who swing the ban hammer.

 

[Brrokk]

the problem with PvP flag is that it only solves part of the issue. there are still ways for griefers to abuse the remaining game mechanics for nefarious actions...

As we would still have collisions on... In most other MMO's, we do not have collisions, because that creates situations that could be abused, like how griefers in The Division went on a "coffee break" in the doorway to the room where you received and turned in quests, and this was in a safe zone, and we have already seen the very same in Elite, players jamming themselves in the station mail slot... So this one situation we already know we will have to deal with, as it is currently an issue today... and if we remove Solo and Private group, that would not be an option no longer available for players to get around this problem.

And this is not the only problem we would have with the collision between players. If we allow the PvP control collision damage, to avoid players ramming other players to death, or abuse station mechanics to suicide on speeding CMDRs, we would create bouncing castles, where players could use other players ships to fling themselves in unpredictable ways. we have already seen how SRV's can be flung in really unpredictable ways, and we have also seen ships and onfoot CMDR's experiencing other various strange collision behaviour, where one is flung very far away. This is yet again, not something unique to Elite, several other games also have strange behaviour in their physics engines, giving similar strange behaviour from time to time...


So lets turn of collisions then. That introduces a slew of other issues. So instead of me colliding with your ship, I can now fly straight through it... how would that look? should we make the ship transparent when they "collide"? if we do not, I can use this mechanics to block your view.. and if we only do this between players ships, you could still crash into NPC ships, and if I can block your view I can certainly make you run into NPC ships... this would somewhat solve the issue of players parking their ships in the mail slot. but if you could not see what is behind the blocking ships, you could wedge yourself in there with a NPC ship that you did not see travelling from the other direction. And turning of collisions, will remove alot of the "immursion" of the game, in most other MMO games, this is not really a big thing, but in ED, your ship is a big part of the experience, and they are often big and they need space, and flying through other ships would most likely degrade this experience. And being able to fly through some ships but not others, would make for a more inconsistent experience, that would more than likely be exploited by griefers in one way or another. Just like how they today exploit the suiciding on speeding CMDRs in the no fire zone around a station.



So there is quite alot more than just a rewrite, you have to go and check EVERY mechanic where player can interact with other players and do damage to each other and test and make decision on how do handle this and that, and we will end up with worse mechanics as a result of this.


I am not againt a PvP flag system, but I cannot see how such a system could be implemented without wrecking havoc on so many levels on how the game is experienced.

I don't think ramming and pad blocking would be as widespread as ganking is now in Deciat and CGs. We could simply block the few who carried on like that.

 

[Sylveria]

I cannot see how such a system could be implemented without wrecking havoc on so many levels on how the game is experienced.

Yet the scope of it affecting only those who've enabled such a toggle would be affected, and not for the entirety of the player base.

Collision on, transparent fly-through. Immersion takes a back seat - it is a price to pay for griefer-less MP. That should deal with the bulk of the griefing.

Exactly this. For the players who've enabled such a toggle, they already know their "immersion" is going to take a small hit, but they're also not concerned with doing damage against other players to begin with, therefore it's a non-issue.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Now this does mean that several other options are now possible; -

• If you have to block someone for abusing you, then blocking a player will block them in the chat, if you don’t want to be attacked by them, then have the flag in PVE mode switched on.
• They can add PVP only missions where you can only complete the mission if you’ve had the PVP flag on until it’s complete (with appropriately higher rewards)
• You could flag certain commodities to be only carried in PVP mode. Imagine that they could integrate that into CGs. One where the items required are PVP only and one which is PVE only (Obviously not competing CGs because that would unfair).
• (Or the old favourite) If you are playing powerplay, then you’ll have to play it with the PVP flag switched on.

The downside?

One thing, there are other reasons for blocking people than just "I got attacked by..." Pad stealing, station ramming, kill stealing, general trolling, you name it. Getting ganked by is actually pretty low priority on my reasons to block someone.

 

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What do people think about a Pilot’s Federation Non-Aggression Flag?

We’ve been discussing on Lave Radio the quitting points of MMOs and of course the griefing / seal clubbing issue came up, which is a big quitting point for a lot of new players and then a huge discussion about Crime and Punishment. When compared to other MMOs (I'm looking at you EVE!), the Open/Pvt/Solo model works quite well but I will admit that you lose a sense of community if you’re only flying in pvt / solo. It's one of the reasons I like the Mobius group so much but I haven't seen much activity there now.

I wondered what it would be like if they scrapped open/pvt/solo options and replace it with PVP/PVE flag, so only commanders with the PVP flag switched on and damage/pirate/ram each other. The one reason I’ve had trouble with this in the past is that how do you explain it in Lore, then it hit me.

As players, we are all members of the pilot’s federation; the pilot’s federation has code in the weapons that dials down the damage output of weapons to zero if you’re firing on another player ship, limpets won’t lock on and ramming won’t work (OK bit of handwavium required for that one) if the target has the Pilot’s Federation Non-Aggression Flag switched on (similar to the report crimes flag). As this only works against Pilot’s Federation ships, then we can shoot or be shot by NPC ships as normal.

“Ah But what about people switching that flag on and off half way through a fight,” I hear you cry. Well, you can only flip that flag if you’re ship is either docked, or landed on a planet. So for the duration of the next trip you make, you are either in PVE or PVP mode.

Now this does mean that several other options are now possible; -

• If you have to block someone for abusing you, then blocking a player will block them in the chat, if you don’t want to be attacked by them, then have the flag in PVE mode switched on.
• They can add PVP only missions where you can only complete the mission if you’ve had the PVP flag on until it’s complete (with appropriately higher rewards)
• You could flag certain commodities to be only carried in PVP mode. Imagine that they could integrate that into CGs. One where the items required are PVP only and one which is PVE only (Obviously not competing CGs because that would unfair).
• (Or the old favourite) If you are playing powerplay, then you’ll have to play it with the PVP flag switched on.

The downside?

It's a huge re-write of part of the game and potentially months of development and Live Balance fixes as the system is implemented. Judging by the current state of the game, these kind of changes will be far down the list.

How about same rewards? Why would PvP outcoome be superior? Why does the PvE brother earn less? Why bother with PvE at all. Why not get rid of these cheap peasants altogether - they arent worth it anyway.

 

[Robert Maynard]

How about same rewards? Why would PvP outcoome be superior? Why does the PvE brother earn less? Why bother with PvE at all. Why not get rid of these cheap peasants altogether - they arent worth it anyway.

The proposals seem to be aimed at excluding PvE players from pretty much all (currently) mode shared game features either all the time or some of the time (to begin with at least), i.e. Powerplay, BGS missions and "Community" Goals, by including provisions for them to be PvP-gated and also aims to force all players to play among other players, by removing the other two game modes.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I don't think ramming and pad blocking would be as widespread as ganking is now in Deciat and CGs. We could simply block the few who carried on like that.

And with the other proposed change to open only and blocking only affecting chat, would not solve the issue in this case..

 

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The proposals seem to be aimed at excluding PvE players from pretty much all (currently) mode shared game features either all the time or some of the time (to begin with at least), i.e. Powerplay, BGS missions and "Community" Goals, by including provisions for them to be PvP-gated and also aims to force all players to play among other players, by removing the other two game modes.

It's not like the elated PvP-hood in ED was bothering much about the BGS. You could remove it and many wouldnt even notice, I bet. How about spawning hollow contacts, but they're NPC and tweet butthurt comments when shot at. The average griefer would take some time (plus an internet video guide) to figure that out.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Yet the scope of it affecting only those who've enabled such a toggle would be affected, and not for the entirety of the player base.

So I want to abuse collision mechanics, so I put PvP=off, and collision is active. and SCORE!!!!! and PvP players can no longer ram each other to death. removing a tactical aspect from combat. I do not engage in PvP, but I have seen enough of videos where players have used RAM tactic to their benefits, like taking out the last hull from their opponent before their shields can come up again.

and if we do it the other way around, no collision for everyone by default, and only collision when you set PvP=On, then you have basically ruined the immersion for everyone else. as we now can just fly through anything as we see fit. Removing collisions from PvE players instead.


Regardless of which patch we choose, we would end up with situations where you would be able to fly through some ships, but not others...

 

[Sylveria]

So I want to abuse collision mechanics, so I put PvP=off, and collision is active. and SCORE!!!!! and PvP players can no longer ram each other to death. removing a tactical aspect from combat. I do not engage in PvP, but I have seen enough of videos where players have used RAM tactic to their benefits, like taking out the last hull from their opponent before their shields can come up again.

and if we do it the other way around, no collision for everyone by default, and only collision when you set PvP=On, then you have basically ruined the immersion for everyone else. as we now can just fly through anything as we see fit. Removing collisions from PvE players instead.


Regardless of which patch we choose, we would end up with situations where you would be able to fly through some ships, but not others...

PvP toggle "off" should prevent collisions between player ships, period. The only collision that should happen is between players and NPCs.

And for PvE players the "immersion" lost by flying through player ships wouldn't be a loss at all, but a gain.

There should also be a cooldown for toggling such a flag to prevent abuse of mechanics as well- which would mean someone engaging in PvP activities would not be able to toggle themselves at will between targets to prevent retribution from those targets. Cooldown should apply even if you log off (purposely or by "accident") and resume when you log back on until the timer has expired.

Adding a PvP flag isn't as difficult as some make it out to be, and it's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp. Blizzard managed it over a decade ago with World of Warcraft on PvE servers, and each player can freely toggle themselves on and off for PvP as they like- granted, with timers to prevent abuse of the mechanics.

 

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So I want to abuse collision mechanics, so I put PvP=off, and collision is active. and SCORE!!!!! and PvP players can no longer ram each other to death. removing a tactical aspect from combat. I do not engage in PvP, but I have seen enough of videos where players have used RAM tactic to their benefits, like taking out the last hull from their opponent before their shields can come up again.

and if we do it the other way around, no collision for everyone by default, and only collision when you set PvP=On, then you have basically ruined the immersion for everyone else. as we now can just fly through anything as we see fit. Removing collisions from PvE players instead.


Regardless of which patch we choose, we would end up with situations where you would be able to fly through some ships, but not others...

What does your collision have to do with other PvP players? You want no PvP when not flagged so why would you ram other players?

Usually the flagging is set around a cooldown period, yes.

 

[Brrokk]

And with the other proposed change to open only and blocking only affecting chat, would not solve the issue in this case..

Well yes. I'm assuming that FD would never be mad enough to take away the control of instancing by block. There will always be griefers in any multi-player situation.

 

[Ettanin]

Well yes. I'm assuming that FD would never be mad enough to take away the control of instancing by block. There will always be griefers in any multi-player situation.

if they did, people will find ways on the lower OSI layers anyway.