Trading Bug - Cargo included in demand price calculations.

[Beermachine]

Just ran the following test:
Extraction Station - Progenitor cells: Demand 1319, 7061cr.
Arrived at station 5 minutes later with 441T, sale price now 6772cr.
Sold 241T, undocked, left station, redocked, sale price now 6869cr.
Pretty sure the same applies to performance enhancers, consumer tech and I would assume every trade good. Obviously not a factor with large demand goods as the price wont change, but low demand good profit 1 or 2 run routes are pointless in large ships.
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Explains a lot, been wondering why my Type 9 has been such a bad earner with potentially good routes. Also explains the disparity in what people are seeing in the trading game, where small ships are seeing lots of good profit routes and larger ships a lot less.
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Should ticket it, but I'm guessing their already aware.

 

[Katkon]

Unless the game is dynamically adjusting prices - by design. For this to be the case, the station is basically willing to pay 7061 cr for quantity 1. You bring 441t and all of a sudden you've satisfied nearly a third of the station's demand. By satisfying that demand you'd consequently reduce excess demand, which in turns drives down your selling price.

Another way to think about it: the station's getting a volume discount. The magnitude of that volume discount is based on how much of their excess demand you are able to supply.

Again, I have no idea whether this is intended or not, but it could be the logic behind the scheme.

 

[Gremlin]

Unless the game is dynamically adjusting prices - by design. For this to be the case, the station is basically willing to pay 7061 cr for quantity 1. You bring 441t and all of a sudden you've satisfied nearly a third of the station's demand. By satisfying that demand you'd consequently reduce excess demand, which in turns drives down your selling price.

Another way to think about it: the station's getting a volume discount. The magnitude of that volume discount is based on how much of their excess demand you are able to supply.

Again, I have no idea whether this is intended or not, but it could be the logic behind the scheme.

If this is even remotely true - its horribly broken.. Ship costs are massive on the large ships - both for buying them, running them and repairing them.. If the trade profit doesn't scale with volume what is the incentive to get a larger ship, and once you have it its hard to keep it running.. Perhaps we should get the same 'volume discounts' on fuel and repairs and W&T purchases.. No?

 

[RedWizzard]

If this is even remotely true - its horribly broken.. Ship costs are massive on the large ships - both for buying them, running them and repairing them.. If the trade profit doesn't scale with volume what is the incentive to get a larger ship, and once you have it its hard to keep it running..

You could carry multiple commodities. If they want progenitor cells they usually also want performance enhancers. Carry 220 tons of each and you might make more than 440 tons of one. If that's how it's working I think it's good. You should make more money in a bigger ship but it's reasonable for it to be harder to find routes to make that money.

 

[Amaze]

You could carry multiple commodities. If they want progenitor cells they usually also want performance enhancers. Carry 220 tons of each and you might make more than 440 tons of one. If that's how it's working I think it's good. You should make more money in a bigger ship but it's reasonable for it to be harder to find routes to make that money.

Its hard enough to make money in the big ships as it is with W&T, repair and refuel costs.
They really don't need the extra effort like this.

Anyway, I'v gone back to flying the cobra and doing some bounty hunting. Trading in big ships is not fun at the moment for me.

 

[RedWizzard]

Its hard enough to make money in the big ships as it is with W&T, repair and refuel costs.
They really don't need the extra effort like this.

I don't find any of those costs remotely concerning. W&T is completely optional for a trader, repair bills are rare, and if fuel is denting your profit too much simple fit a scoop. I haven't flown a Type 9 since beta 1 so maybe it's much worse in that, but the Type 7 I have now is still extremely profitable.

 

[Jexter]

They should adjust the price downwards per sold item, not by the whole load at once. So if you're selling 200 items you get a higher price for the first one and the lowest for the last one.

 

[Monk]

You could carry multiple commodities. If they want progenitor cells they usually also want performance enhancers. Carry 220 tons of each and you might make more than 440 tons of one. If that's how it's working I think it's good. You should make more money in a bigger ship but it's reasonable for it to be harder to find routes to make that money.

Would be very interesting if this were true. After stocking up on missions, I fill the rest of my hold with bunches of high supply items, if any. Just always made innate sense to diversify in such a broad economy. As I complete missions I check for good return missions, deals for my commodities (1k/ton a must) and pick up any other well priced goods.

Economy was bad a little while ago, was stuck with stock I couldn't sell, but it has improved a lot for me since the last gamma patch. Perhaps some areas are still being tweaked or are slowly self correcting.

 

[vjek]

Just ran the following test:
Extraction Station - Progenitor cells: Demand 1319, 7061cr.
Arrived at station 5 minutes later with 441T, sale price now 6772cr.
Sold 241T, undocked, left station, redocked, sale price now 6869cr.
Pretty sure the same applies to performance enhancers, consumer tech and I would assume every trade good. Obviously not a factor with large demand goods as the price wont change, but low demand good profit 1 or 2 run routes are pointless in large ships.
----------
Explains a lot, been wondering why my Type 9 has been such a bad earner with potentially good routes. Also explains the disparity in what people are seeing in the trading game, where small ships are seeing lots of good profit routes and larger ships a lot less.
----------
Should ticket it, but I'm guessing their already aware.

Have seen this happening anywhere I find a trade route over 500CR profit per ton, regardless of quantity of supply or demand. Price drops every 5 minutes, no matter if I'm trading or not, though. It's just worse when I'm trading (even if I'm alone in the system, this happens)

 

[Venkman]

Unless the game is dynamically adjusting prices - by design. For this to be the case, the station is basically willing to pay 7061 cr for quantity 1. You bring 441t and all of a sudden you've satisfied nearly a third of the station's demand. By satisfying that demand you'd consequently reduce excess demand, which in turns drives down your selling price.

Another way to think about it: the station's getting a volume discount. The magnitude of that volume discount is based on how much of their excess demand you are able to supply.

Again, I have no idea whether this is intended or not, but it could be the logic behind the scheme.

What if i am not willing to give any volume discount?

A set price is a set price no matter the quantity

This is and should be corrected

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If this is even remotely true - its horribly broken.. Ship costs are massive on the large ships - both for buying them, running them and repairing them.. If the trade profit doesn't scale with volume what is the incentive to get a larger ship, and once you have it its hard to keep it running.. Perhaps we should get the same 'volume discounts' on fuel and repairs and W&T purchases.. No?

Exactly

I think FD should hire a financial advisor

 

[Beermachine]

Another way to think about it: the station's getting a volume discount. The magnitude of that volume discount is based on how much of their excess demand you are able to supply..

Generally economic simulation games, even quite complex ones don't bother with volume discounts, most likely the logic being that volume discounts on buying and volume discounts on selling in bulk cancel each other out so just add needless complexity to the simulation.
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Have seen this happening anywhere I find a trade route over 500CR profit per ton, regardless of quantity of supply or demand. Price drops every 5 minutes, no matter if I'm trading or not, though. It's just worse when I'm trading (even if I'm alone in the system, this happens)

Ran the experiment multiple times, and it's correct, the system was out on the rim with no traffic / trading in days except for my ship. Thought I was being trolled by AI traders until I realised the correlation.
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As well as Gremlin's good points regarding the system being a rather big deterent to large cargo ships, when you include fuel costs it throws economies of scale completely upside down. The ultimate test would be to see if ejecting 500t of cargo outside a station, buying a sidey and then ferrying it in 4 cargo at a time would yield maximum profit. Not time effective for sure, but in say the above example would increase income of that trade by 150,000cr! Had to undock and re-dock to get the cargo price to re-evaluate, logging out and back in didn't change anything.
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I expect it to get fixed or changed, could well be helping to throw the economic simulation out of whack (though doubtful as I assume the AI trading simulation is much more abstract).

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

If its applying a hidden volume discount to sale, it should apply the same discount at point of purchase. You are after all buying significant volumes of stock.

 

[Draxinusom]

If this is true it's no wonder people in small ships continually claim "no it's fine I don't know what you complain" while those of us who have been trading for a longer while and progressed to larger, more expensive ships are complaining about the little morsels left. What a horrible mechanic if this is intentional.

 

[ChubbyBunneh]

What I also find freaky is the fact that completely unrelated products: Consumer Tech (iPhone 3000), Performance Enhancers (Brawndo, The Thirst Mutilator), and Prog Cells (Garden of Eden Creation Kit) all seem to be linked together somehow.

Check the markets sometime and you'll see often they sell for the exact same price. I've been seeing 7040 a bunch lately.

What gives?

 

[vjek]

What I also find freaky is the fact that completely unrelated products: Consumer Tech (iPhone 3000), Performance Enhancers (Brawndo, The Thirst Mutilator), and Prog Cells (Garden of Eden Creation Kit) all seem to be linked together somehow.

Check the markets sometime and you'll see often they sell for the exact same price. I've been seeing 7040 a bunch lately.

What gives?

Those linked max prices are artificial hard caps to prevent profit exceeding a certain design goal threshold (that they have not revealed).

 

[Beermachine]

Those linked max prices are artificial hard caps to prevent profit exceeding a certain design goal threshold (that they have not revealed).

Noticed this too, station demand is capped (most likely related to size of the station) and maximum price listed at zero cargo carried is also capped. Many stations in my remote area have had exactly the same demand numbers and prices for a few days now.

 

[Sallen]

Unless the game is dynamically adjusting prices - by design. For this to be the case, the station is basically willing to pay 7061 cr for quantity 1. You bring 441t and all of a sudden you've satisfied nearly a third of the station's demand. By satisfying that demand you'd consequently reduce excess demand, which in turns drives down your selling price.

Another way to think about it: the station's getting a volume discount. The magnitude of that volume discount is based on how much of their excess demand you are able to supply.

Again, I have no idea whether this is intended or not, but it could be the logic behind the scheme.

If this is indeed how it's implemented, then bravo indeed. In the last Limit Theory video it was shown this way, and I remember thinking "wow, so realistic. I wish Elite's trading was half as good". Perhaps this game is not flawed in its mechanics, but in the way they are hidden from the player. Who knows...

EDIT: Well, Limit Theory is even more complex. Commodities don't have prices. Instead, NPCs place buy and sell orders and you see the best price for your transaction. When you start selling large volumes, you exhaust the good buy orders and start getting worse prices (thus giving this "volume discount" effect). If Elite is implementing something half as complex I wish it was apparent through the trading interface. That kind of stuff makes the world seem much more alive and dynamic.

 

[vjek]

Noticed this too, station demand is capped (most likely related to size of the station) and maximum price listed at zero cargo carried is also capped. Many stations in my remote area have had exactly the same demand numbers and prices for a few days now.

Yep, and in 15+ years of playing MMO's, I've only ever seen heavy handed artificial mechanics like this imposed for one reason:

CASH SHOP, BABY! Woo hoo!!! ♪♫ Money for nothing.. ♪♫♪ that's the way you do it.. ♫♪