PvP Truesilver's Top Tips, No.3 ++ Gimballed Duelling ++

(Or: "How you, too, could fight 20 med v med ship 1v1's, and win ... 20-0 !")

Want to get into PvP but feel you can't because of your all-gimballed loadout?

Harassed by rails? Pestered by plasma?

Or just want to improve your PvE piloting by taking some PvP tips and letting rip on the NPC's?

Any which way, gimballed Cmdr, this guide is for you.

In Beta 2.3 I have fought precisely 20 medium v medium ship duels against all comers. We have infinite access to the mods, so everyone is fully RNGineered. I had no control over my opponents' loadouts but I used the same one myself, 20 times over.

I used five gimballed pulse lasers.

And I won 20, lost 0.

As the flip side of the coin to Truesilver's Top Tips, No.2: Using Fixed Weapons, let me present ...

Truesilver's Top Tips, No.3: Gimballed Duelling.

Now, welcome to my pulse disco ... with music by The K.L.F. !


Here's the build:


The specials were phasing on c4 and 2 x c2, emissive and scramble spectrum on the remaining c2's.

(To be super-try-hard you could drop the FSD down to nothing to save mass, at the expense of making it impossible to high wake, make the interdictor a 1D, etc, but I didn't bother.)

Note that as I spell out below in more detail, the shieldless laser thing is completely optional. You can dominate with any credible gimballed weapons set up, and you can be shielded. Although highly effective, my build was partly trollolo and partly to test the viability of combat without having to reload (I am sick of synthesis). There are ways to make it (usually) better, such as by including corrosive.

Here's the gameplan:

1. Evade
2. Evade
3. Evade

This ^^ bit is NOT optional. Because I hope that by the end of this guide you will agree that, if you're using gimbals and you aren't evading continuously, then (unless in Big 3) you are doing it wrong. This is the main thing I hope people will take from this.

Political Disclaimer

Now, (hard hat on), I know that some of my fixed weapon PvP buddies may be spluttering, "Thanks for spreading the cheese, True. What's coming as No.4? Your guide to flying backwards and spamming pack hounds?"

Equally I know that some of the PvE guys may be thinking, "If this makes gimbals look OP it will help the PvP nerf agenda."

Spare me, guys. Gimbals are the most widely used weapon variant in the game, eclipsing fixed, turrets and seekers probably 10 times over. It's high time they had their own guide and I'm just going to write it, telling it how it is, not how it should be. But of course you're welcome to discuss all issues in the comments.

Now, on to a full Q+A, with a table and two more explanatory vids...

Q. I don't understand. For years I've been told that gimbals were useless in PvP because of chaff...?

A fully gimballed loadout is still useless in a wing fight if the entire enemy team has double chaff, because wing victory goes to the first team to focus down one enemy. Complete chaff coverage will hamper damage for several minutes, so losing the fight. Even every enemy player having single chaff would pose significant problems.

However, in a 1v1, the game has moved on by reason of 2.1 hit point inflation - and not just 'on paper' inflation but 'effective' inflation via g5 dirty drives.

Even though chaff can be modded up to 15 (14+1) rather than 11 total ammo now, double chaff simply does not provide enough duration of partial immunity. Basically, if you are gimballed you wait out their 220 to 300 seconds of coverage, taking opportunities to tag them, preferably at close range (where much of the damage will get through anyway) until their chaff is exhausted. Then you wreck them.

Most of my Beta opponents had chaff. Many had double chaff. 20-0 does not lie.

Q. OK, can you provide some more details on these fights?

Certainly, here is a complete table. I don't want any guy to feel called out in a guide so I've abbreviated Cmdr names to initials.

Note that I'm here ONLY setting out medium v medium. The pulse disco vid above for example includes a fight against a Diamondback and 4 NPC's but I haven't included fights against small ships in my 20. I am however, without hesitation, including Vultures because they are right up there with FdL and FAS now (especially in Beta due to the buffed large weapon APV).

Here are all my Beta medium v medium ship duels. In every single fight I used the loadout linked above (sometimes with three chaff, sometimes four) except for just one duel in which I had more kinetic, but otherwise the same build. Opponents' builds are notes, not complete. Durations are to nearest half minute.

NoCmdrShipBuildOpponent's final statusDuration
1GTVulturePacifiersRan when shield low6 mins
2W5FASCannonsExploded9 mins
3H4FdLPlasma, TorpsExploded7 mins
4UPythonPlasmaConceded at 27% hull21 mins
5KPythonPlasmaRan at 44% hull15-20 mins
6FCHDropship?Agreed shield drop only10 secs
7NTFdLCannonsConceded at 3% hull15 mins
8NTVultureBurstsConceded at 1% hull10 mins
9RFdLMultis, SCB'sExploded6 mins 30 secs
10BVulturePulsesExploded16 mins
11YLFdLPlasmaExploded10 mins
12ABFdLPlasma, rails, SCB'sRan at 80% hull4 mins
13ROrcaFragsRan at 58% hull7 mins 30 secs
14MPythonPlasma, TorpsConceded at 28% hull26 mins 30 secs
15YFdLMultis, plasma, SCB'sRan at 2% hull7 mins
16PSFdLMultis, lasersExploded4 mins 30 secs
17ARFdLMultisExploded7 mins 30 secs
18MFdLMultisExploded10 mins
19SHFASPlasma, Rails, Multi-CrewExploded15 mins 30 secs
20KFASPlasma, HammerExploded18 mins

Q. I don't get it - I've seen lots of recent 1v1 vids of guys in medium ships taking regular hits from fixed cannons and plasma, right from the get-go...?

A. Yes, those vids are painful for me to watch, though I mean no disrespect by that. We are human, we have learning curves. Those guys are early on the evasion learning curve, in particular they use next to no lateral thrust, and sometimes crash face first into more massive enemies, suffering heavy collision damage, due to straight line flying and tunnel vision.

Which is no shame because we were all that guy once. But my point is: none of us need to be that guy forever.

Q. OK, I'm fully gimballed, in medium ship, plasma guy interdicts me - specifically, how do I do this evasion thing?

A. Assuming you have no real prior knowledge at all, please first watch and read Truesilver's Top Tips, No.1: Beginner's Guide to Circle-Strafing...


... which I hope will set you up in terms of control of the six axes of motion and opposing the three straight line movements of fw/rev, up/down, left/right, with the curving movements of pitch, roll and yaw. I've recently added a SLF learning method vid which hopefully will help a lot with the basics.

Now let's look at things from the perspective of the plasma guy. He almost certainly doesn't have the long range mod, so his projectiles travel at 875 mps - about half the speed of multis and only about 1.6 times as fast as your max boost. His weapons fire instantly so he's not looking to hold a lead (as a fixed multi guy would) but to take pot-shots. So your trajectory and speed before he fires is relevant but not overwhelmingly so - what he really needs is for you to maintain that same speed and trajectory during the time it takes the plasma to reach you.

So, three things.

Firstly, every single movement you make should be some form of curve. Think fractals. Imagine drawing a straight line from the centre of an analogue clock towards a number. Whether it's headed towards the three, or the twelve, or half past one, this is NOT what you are trying to achieve. Because even the diagonal can be predicted and tracked. So instead, imagine a line drawn towards the three that starts moving towards the half past one and then moves sharply towards the twelve and then back on itself ... in a curve.

To do the above you use lateral thrust (both left/right and up/down) and vary your overall direction, mainly through roll.

Secondly, vary your speed. Pulse your boosts. Vary the rhythm. Make him guess. Decelerate massively by going from FA-Off back to FA-On and thrusting against your original direction of travel. But before this becomes a 'sitting duck' stall, get moving again.

Thirdly, vary your line. I favour down thrust and right thrust but all the time I throw in left thrust and sometimes up thrust. With or without boost. With or without FA-Off.

If you are continuously making curves, continuously changing speed and continuously changing direction, you are presenting a vanishingly small chance of being in the place that the other guy's HUD computer predicted you would be in, between him firing his plasma and it reaching you.

And all of that is basically prevention. There's also cure. See which way he is orientated and go under him, forcing him to roll because he can't see you. Watch out for plasma spheres or cannon shells and move away from them.

Don't joust. If you boost towards him in a straight line, aiming to just miss by using pitch, he will hold fire and shoot you as you move past his centre line. Instead, boost using your vertical, side and forwards thrusters so you move diagonally across and past him. Make him have to roll and use pitch and yaw just to see you. Make him work. And keep using your own roll to change your diagonals into curves.

Incidentally, although I am focusing here on plasma, all of these methods limit ToT for the almost equally popular fixed cannons, fixed multis and rails and to help to avoid the admittedly wide fire-arc of other gimballed Cmdrs.

Q. OK ... I guess I'll need to put in a bit of practice before that first interdiction, then?

A. Well, yes, that would be wise! Seriously, there can a be a lot to take in, which makes the game fun. Practice is the thing, you can't learn the game from a book, lol.

My own more recent story is this: by the time I was in the PvP League back when I used to be in Adle's Armada about a year ago, I was already an effective brawler ... a damage-dealer, rammer, time-on-target guy, with a good knowledge of the game and situational awareness that came from having to stay alive on my own, from back before, when I was into lone-wolf PvP. But I realised during the League that what I really needed to work on was evasion.

Fast forward a year and I've almost done nothing else in between (well, except for the lifetime of RNGineering but I try to blot that out). Practice, practice.

So what I've tried to do recently is take the laterals of Cmdrs like Cillit Bang and the perma-boost of Cmdrs like Z4.Mafia and add it to my own beloved Courier circle-strafing into kind of a Cannibal-FdL thing, a Lance that eats Lances, if you see what I mean.

Of course, I am on my own learning curve, which is why as you'll see from the vids I do take damage ... but at least in these 20 fights, notwithstanding in every single case my having massively fewer hit points than my opponents, the overall rates of damage were so much in my favour that it didn't matter.

Q. And while I'm evading, and he may be chaffing, how do I damage him?

A. You have to strike a balance between facing him nose on (in order to minimise your profile, as if you were using fixed weapons) and using gimbals' ability to hit even though off-line. But remember that the latter is your advantage. People often think the point of gimbals is that they turn near-misses into hits but the real point is their abilities to (a) hit off-line, i.e. with your nose facing anywhere within up to a 30 degree angle of the target, (b) track a target faster than any human can, (c) use those two things to enable you to evade while still hitting. I'd go so far as to say that (except on Big 3, or equivalent) enabling evasion is the major benefit of gimbals.

So, keep moving, keep firing, keep tagging. Try to work around an optimum range of about 750 m to 1.5 km, within which you are close enough to prevent gimbal sway robbing you of Time-on-Target but far enough away not to collide, be fragged, or provide 'can't miss' point-blank plasma opportunities. Don't try to fight at really long range with gimbals unless up against a very large/slow target, that's a fixed laser thing.

If he chaffs continuously, he is either using a 10 second repeater-macro, panicking, or has good timing. In any case, great. He'll run out quickly.

If he pulses his chaff intelligently, he'll leave gaps when you can score.

While he's chaffing, attempt to close range and keep firing. Within the ranges I mention you can easily get 30% of DPS to score, particularly if using lasers. If he does not have high-alpha weapons and you are more massive and willing to get really close, you can get over 50% of DPS against a medium ship.

If he has single chaff, I recommend that you do NOT use de-targeting unless you want to tag him with emissive. With single chaff he's in trouble anyway and de-targeting tends to reduce your ToT during his reload period, while your guns re-acquire the lock.

If he's really good with double-chaff, de-target when at longer ranges but just stay targeted and spam at closer ranges.

Be aware of your hard point locations. Your guns cannot shoot through your ship. Lift the nose of the FdL if the huge hard point is not tracking.

Be patient. You can (probably) evade longer than he can chaff. See the table above and note the fight durations. And those long durations, don't forget, are until I got them, not until they got me. I had more time than I required.

Q. Can this help me against NPC's?

A. Absolutely. Take a ship with strong lateral thrusters such as FdL or Viper III, go to a RES or CZ and fight with just pitch and roll but 4 pips to Eng. Then fight with continuous full-strength sideways thrust with 4 pips to Eng. You will note that the NPC's hit you far less often.

Q. Back to duelling, should I face-tank, or use Reverski?

Not face-tanking is kind of the point of this guide and reverski is just a way to force a face-tank.

So don't use prolonged reversing except in edge cases or if you are in the Big 3 or a similarly sluggish vessel. Reverski is intended to hold both ships within each other's fire arc, because the reverser calculates that he will win on pure hit point trading. To win via a face-tank you have to have higher DPS, DPE and/or hit points than your opponent - preferably all three.

Gimballed weapons have lower DPS and DPE than their fixed counterparts and the best DPS/DPE weapons in the game (plasma and rails, taking modding into account) do not even come gimballed. So unless you have a much higher hit point pool than your opponent, by reversing you are creating a spreadsheet war with the numbers against you.

Basically there are better weapons for face-tanking than gimbals. Get moving sideways, so you can hit him but he struggles to hit you. Convert your lower DPS into more damage via higher ToT.

I employed sustained reverski twice in Beta: against an Orca with frags and a Cobra IV with mines. These are the edge cases.

Q. What about the build? You were shieldless?? In a Ferdie, not FAS??? With gimballed pulses lasers????

A. The basic principles are the same whichever gimballed weapons you go for, or shieldless or not, or in FdL or FAS. Try different combos and see what works for you.

Lasers will give you access to phasing, better ToT and no reload downtime, at the expense of DPS and DPE, thermal load and (unless long range) damage fall-off.

Multis and cannons give better DPS and DPE but require reloading, especially in the case of cannons. Also, gimballed cannons are inaccurate without the long range mod, due to low projectile velocity.

Specials-wise, I strongly recommend emissive to ensure good lock and tracking and wide fire-arc (which is determined by the target's thermal signature). Corrosive is great, as is dispersal. Heat cannons are controversial but useful, at least as suppression. So if you really want a perfect min/maxed gimballed set up, you might consider combining weapons of different types to get a good spread of specials, and carrying tons of synthesis.

Shields-wise, the health pool of an SCB tank or a bi-weave hybrid is vastly higher than a shieldless ship. And a shieldless FAS has a ton more hp than a shieldless FdL. And a Vulture has the same hp and better manoeuvrability.

However, I went for the shieldless FdL because of its combination of a narrow profile, no shield bubble to turn misses into hits, perma-boost, greater DPS than FAS, higher acceleration than FAS and stronger lateral thrust than FAS (the latter two especially).

Basically when I want to evade, I really want to evade, even at the expense of having (relatively) small hit points. I suspect what will work best for you will depend on how much you take the evasion thing on board, or revert to tanking, lol. I did consider the Vulture but the fights are long enough already with FdL DPS and Vulture DPS would just have made them longer again.

If you go shielded you will need a clear strategy concerning whether you are expecting your shield to drop multiple times or not and good pip management to ensure evasion without running your Sys cap dry due to shield regen.

Concerning anti-hull stuff like corrosive and scramble spectrum, I faced all of that. The only thing that is unmanageable is stacked pack-hounds plus emissive. I didn't see anyone with that, but would just have LOL'd and left if I had. Rails and high yield were not an issue, they still have to hit you.

Q. What about gimballed v gimballed?

A. Plenty of these duels involved gimballed v gimballed, in particular against multis (about half were fixed, half gimballed, of those). You can leverage advantage in many ways: (a) Spending more time outside your opponent's fire arc than he spends outside yours. You can't stay on someone's six in this game but you can spend a lot of the fight facing their canopy at 90 degrees because you're better with thrusters. This to me is the main thing. (b) Controlling range - if he has gimballed multis, for example, he can't do much to you outside 2 km. (c) Intelligent chaff - consider his range and angle before you use it. Consider saving chaff for when your bi-weave is down if you have a swift broken reform. (d) Having more chaff - a last resort but offers peace of mind! (e) Carrying dispersal as a back-up (although then you spoil your pulse disco...)

Q. Thanks for the pulse disco but can I watch some full fights to get a better idea?

A. Sure, here are two. They are long of course but I've put in plenty of explanatory captions, which should be considered part of this guide. The first is against a partly plasma FdL, the second against multi-crewed(!) plasma and rails FAS. One reason I've selected these is because rendering of plasma is temperamental, especially in Beta, but you can see it well in these.

Concerning my explanations of evasion, there are for example some good vapour trail moments in these vids which should really help with visualisation.

A few things to note while watching these two vids:

- It is difficult to see sideways movement from within the cockpit. Opponents' videos of me would be much better. But there are barely a few seconds within these 25 minutes of fighting when I am not using full lateral thrust in at least one, and usually two (so, diagonal) directions, in addition to using fw/rev thrust and making curves.

- It tends to look as though I use more down thrust than anything else but actually I use side thrust more (more to the right than the left, for some reason). It looks more like down thrust because of the way the movements interact with pitch and roll, I think.

- You'll note that when I get tagged it tends to be because I get complacent and let my opponent get too close.

- That said, I find long range / reverski fighting dull and gimbals are unsuited to it, so I'm pretty much always moving forwards and trying to circle in that 750 m to 1.5 km zone, just as some may recall from my many Courier PvP vids. (In the fights tabled above I used long range against two Pythons only, and partly due to damaging invisible de-sync collisions at close range which unfortunately are common in Beta.)

Video 2: Gimballed Pulse FdL v Plasma FdL (10 mins)


Video 3: Gimballed Pulse FdL v Plasma FAS (15 mins)


Q. I do feel motivated to PvP more, and encouraged to see that I could actually try it with my all-gimballed loadout, but I'm inexperienced and I'm wondering whether what you're saying is really applicable only to experienced PvP-ers. I mean, that basically you might have won without the gimbals, and I would lose with the gimbals.

A. Well, obviously I like to think that the time I've put into learning about this game and having hundreds (/thousands) of fights helped me, but I feel that this concern would be more relevant if I was like, "Look everyone, I won 2-0, so therefore gimbals don't suck." I mean, not 2-0, but 20-0? The odds of winning 20 duels consecutively by chance are 1,048,576 to 1. More than a million to one. That I feel is as good a proof of a build as we're going to see in this game. After all, around here, we get 'New Meta' threads when a guy wins one duel! (Not a criticism, I like reading those threads.)

It doesn't prove that this is the best build, of course. Making assertions about what is best is not what this guide is about. It's about viability.

And viability ... considerable viability ... yes, 1v1 all-gimballed viability, I insist, is proven.

Also, I think I can say genuinely with the 'feel' that comes from a couple of years of PvP, that I did feel like I had a build advantage in these fights.

Whether gimbals should confer a build advantage is, of course, a controversial question and as I said earlier beyond the scope of this guide, although it's a valid topic for discussion.

So don't delay - we were all inexperienced once. Get experienced. Do some practice on the NPC's, then jump in to PvP. "Nothing to fear but fear itself", as they say. And with gimbals + evasion, you should have little to fear.

I hope that you found this guide useful. I'd welcome all comments and will try to answer any questions.

Happy gimballed duelling!




Some other stuff:

Truesilver's Top Tips, No.1: Circle-Strafing


Truesilver's Top Tips, No.2: Using Fixed Weapons


Official FDev Damage Stats Every Weapon


All Ships Max Speed, Boost, Pitch, Roll and Yaw


Side effects of every Engineered special effect


Cmdr Truesilver Youtube PvP Channel

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The first two vids are really nice. Haven't watched the third yet :). It looks like Phasing Sequence got the FDL down to about 70 hull by the time his shields dropped. which is interesting, given how massive his shields appeared to be - you don't know if he'd engineered them for thermal resist I suppose?

One thing - how do you think that fight would have gone if the FDL had 4 turrets on the medium hardpoints and kept the huge plasma?
I have the same conclusion as Truesilver.

And imo gimballs are OP, even if enemy is chaffed, fixed weapons (projectile and lasers) need more DPS boost to make them more worth using.
Evading in gimballed builds is easier than in fixed builds, because a player do not need to track and aim enemy. Not tracking and aiming is a problem, but a patch of flight of enemy with fixed weapons is more predictable, because he need to keep his starship in specific position to maitain fire.
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I have the same conclusion as Truesilver.

And imo gimballs are OP, even if enemy is chaffed.
What we could really do with is some kind of mechanic where gimballed weapons behave better or worse depending on the quality of your sensors....

Oh look! Another perfectly good looking change that was tested and not implemented... ;)
Is that phasing such a wise extra ? I mean , with all this pulses , the ennemi's shield drops rather fast meaning phasing is not a good point anymore , but you still miss the DPS of a standard pulse. In other words : are the few damages you make to hull with phasing worth the overall loss of dps.

But very great guide by the way . And perfect timing as I am modding a speedy energy based courrier right now.

Thanks for these guides.
That's way too much to absorb at 1am, but it looks like there's a lot of good information in there. Will have to give it a proper read/watch next time I'm sufficiently caffeinated.

Almost makes me want to put away my precious IHammers and equip some gimbals :D
O wise one of the gimballs, i have a question for thou!

You talk about how gimballs are not good in wing fights due to double chaff and focusing, but one thing i've noticed is a lot of fighting is either ramming or done at some range (often jousting) in PvP battles.

What about running gimballs, to the hell with jitter, slap on some inertial impact on some burst lasers, and fly something very agile and glue yourself to the enemy (assuming you have the skill to do that)... hell, forgot gimballs, turrets, so you can push yourself into their belly/englines while you are firing at point blank. I know, surely if you have the skill for this then fixed are better? Perhaps, but i'm thinking of perhaps if at an angle....

Any thoughts.
O wise one of the gimballs, i have a question for thou!

You talk about how gimballs are not good in wing fights due to double chaff and focusing, but one thing i've noticed is a lot of fighting is either ramming or done at some range (often jousting) in PvP battles.

What about running gimballs, to the hell with jitter, slap on some inertial impact on some burst lasers, and fly something very agile and glue yourself to the enemy (assuming you have the skill to do that)... hell, forgot gimballs, turrets, so you can push yourself into their belly/englines while you are firing at point blank. I know, surely if you have the skill for this then fixed are better? Perhaps, but i'm thinking of perhaps if at an angle....

Any thoughts.
I have less experience in winged PvP than any other PvP because I have yet to find "the ones" I will fly with, but I suspect two things will occur:

1) You will realise that in any PvP, thanks to FA Off "gluing yourself" to the enemy usually means they're also firing back at you too.

2) If you're actually knocking that target out, against a competent wing you will find yourself the point of their focus fire fairly quickly.
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Is that phasing such a wise extra ?
Indeed, I almost wept when fitting phasing because it usually works against the guy using it.

And in fully three quarters of these fights, so it proved – because eventually their shields (if fitted) dropped anyway, in the case of bi-weaves, many times over … and the overall damage done to both shield and hull is better without phasing. Basically phasing worked against me perhaps 75% of the time (except, perhaps, psychologically).

However, against the Pythons and a couple of the others ships, the phasing did its job. The Pythons were eventually defeated by phasing but otherwise could have SCB’d for so long as to be, if not undefeatable, then at least unplayable. A couple of the other ships I think lost canopies much earlier due to phasing, with shields still up, effectively forcing a ‘GG’.

The reason for fitting phasing was that the whole point was, of course, to use only gimballed weapons. So the feedback cascade rail was not an option – and phasing is the only other true counter to the SCB.

So, ultimately, the fights I would have won without phasing, I still won anyway – they just took longer. But in a handful of fights, the phasing may have made the difference…!

Thanks all and will answer more questions asap.
Excellent guide, I'm always fascinated by combat, I have an FDL which I can do ok with, but sometimes an NPC Dropship will get me and I don't pick fights alone with anything bigger.

Right now I'm flying a Type 9- I call her the 'Collosal Agrarian'. My tactic is to try to evade every interdiction and if I don't (and I mostly do) spam mines and high wake out of there as soon as possible.

Well, I'd love to see how you go in a space cow! I reckon that would be a test!

PS The type 9 and a good trade route can generate LOTS of cash
Interesting and informative as always o7
I have a couple of queries about the duels in your table. 1) Why is it that it took longer for you to win duels against the Python than all the other medium ships? They are the largest, slowest and least manoeuvrable of any of the medium ships you fought (except the Dropship) and lack the extra utility slots of the FdL to boost their shields further, after all. 2) Why did only one FdL last more than 10 minutes against you in any of the duels, given that they have potentially the best shields and also comparable speed and manoeuvrability to yourself (maybe slightly better since you were carrying roughly 50t extra mass in hull/module reinforcement and higher mass chaff launchers). Was it down to hull hp/resistance?
EDIT: seeing your above comments about the Python tells that they were using lots of SCB. Can thermal shock weapons act as a 'soft counter' to this, forcing them to take more module damage than they might otherwise have to endure?
A separate question I have is: do you think you might have improved your times in those duels if you had been using a single fixed weapon yourself? Something like a corrosive frag cannon could have enabled you to do some serious damage as you seem able to keep close-in most of the time. It seemed from the second video against the FdL that chaff was not a big problem for you but the other player seemed to get better during the course of the duel, from about 4 minutes in, and became more evasive and also then seemed to try jousting more, getting some distance so that they could get you in their sights for a shot - which would have worked better for them if they had been using hitscan weaponry you could not avoid.
Since you tested medium v. medium, are there any ships that stand out as being able to punch above their weight, other than the Vulture (and your Courier)? It takes a lot of time and effort to engineer a FdL or one of the big three, never mind credit/rank requirements. Do you think ships like the Viper (both types), DBS and Cobra Mk3 have a chance at taking on these medium ships? Although I do not think I would be any good at all at PvP, if I wanted to try it to get the hang of these basics, then - especially in the case of learning evasion - I would be inclined to try it in a fast, manoeuvrable (and cheap) ship first, like a Viper or even an Eagle, before moving onto an 'apex pvp' ship. (A long time ago, I remember an Isinona video where he tried to take out the canopy of another player's Anaconda - whilst in a Sidewinder loaded with railguns! He came very close to success.)
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given how massive his shields appeared to be - you don't know if he'd engineered them for thermal resist I suppose?

One thing - how do you think that fight would have gone if the FDL had 4 turrets on the medium hardpoints and kept the huge plasma?
I'm glad you liked the vids!

In PvP, resistances are almost invariably either equal, or slightly slanted towards higher thermal resists - it's quite difficult to build in any other way because of how the resistances stack. For this reason it's important to note that mods such as incendiary, which convert damage to thermal, are almost always a straight downgrade in PvP (although they are very helpful against NPC shields).

Concerning turrets, firstly the amount of chaff I was carrying would have negated them anyway but, if we assume that I had no chaff, they are still very weak in PvP.

The reason is that unlike gimbals (which have super-human tracking) turrets track targets badly and in particular are programmed to be 'confused' by acceleration on the part of the target. Because I accelerate and decelerate all the time, turrets miss me most of the time.

Also (although their DPE is good) turret DPS is poor.

An example of this in practice occurred in Match 4 of Season 1 of the PvP League, when the Adle's Armada wing of 4 that I was then part of fought C.O.N.T.R.A.I.L. The opposing team had the novel plan of using stacked turrets. Although their turrets ignored our silent running and so could shoot us throughout, their accuracy and damage was so pitiful that it was actually the easiest fight we ever had and we won both rounds 4-0 (but props to the Contrail guys for trying something different!)
You talk about how gimballs are not good in wing fights due to double chaff and focusing, but one thing i've noticed is a lot of fighting is either ramming or done at some range (often jousting) in PvP battles.

What about running gimballs, to the hell with jitter, slap on some inertial impact on some burst lasers, and fly something very agile and glue yourself to the enemy (assuming you have the skill to do that)... hell, forgot gimballs, turrets, so you can push yourself into their belly/englines while you are firing at point blank. I know, surely if you have the skill for this then fixed are better? Perhaps, but i'm thinking of perhaps if at an angle...
The number of short range strategies that can be envisaged are almost infinite - intertial impact, as you say, and/or cytoscramblers, good old frag cannons, ramming, overcharged plasma, mines, short range mods - but ultimately they all come back to the same thing: high damage that can only reliably be applied (if at all) at short range.

Breaking this down by 1v1 or winged ...


The problem with all short-range strategies, most especially ramming but really anything that requires you to be within 1 km of the target, is the 80-20 rule: they will work, 1v1 against 80% (or whatever) of the PvP-capable player-base, at least on the first occasion, but they won't work on 20% at all (or certainly not after the first occasion).

So in the example I gave of the frag ramming Orca, who tried to get me for 7 minutes and 40 seconds, you can see the problem with a short range strategy right there - against the credible threats, it doesn't work. The same applied to the guys who tried mines on me.

This is why, much as I loved my brief fame as my 'Fraggy McFragface' alter ego, nowadays I always paraphrase our erstwhile pirate lord friend, the dreaded Cmdr Derath: "Build to defeat the best and you will defeat the rest anyway."


Of course this was your main question and yes, it is different. Although I am out of the wing game at the moment, I still think there could indeed be a place in wing fighting for some close range stuff, albeit with a lot of provisos.

Firstly close range necessitates using a ship that isn't just agile, but can take the collisions ... so FAS for example but not FdL, Courier etc.

Secondly to get close in a wing fight you'd need to be in silent running most of the time (so hull tank FAS with heat sinks).

Thirdly I don't think the plan would work if it's the whole wing or anything like. But one concealed attacker, yes I think so. Although the game has changed a lot in the meantime, this is basically the role I played in my sole appearance in Season 2 of the PvP League, when AA fought BIG, deploying my fragged-up silent running FAS to wreak havoc in what was otherwise (by agreement) a mainly shielded fight ...

(Old vid, advisory: Metallica lyrics, occasionally 'raw')
Some really useful info here Truesilver, and thanks for answering my questions as a complete PvP amateur.

I'd rep you some more, but unfortunately cannot for the moment.
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