General Update the Crime and Punishment to not be to heavy towards PVE

[Dillon Fallon]

What utter nonsense! I have active fire on a ship, and some lolwut of an NPC flies through my line of fire almost at touching distance, but, because the game cannot determine whether the NPC was a smacktard or not, I get "credited" with shooting it.

Happened to me plenty of times. Either jump out and back in again so you've only got the assault bounty or head to the IF.

If it is a killing shot, big deal. Find a bounty hunting spot in a system with a different controlling faction. Part of the fun of the game for a lot of players I'd how to deal with situations where something has gone wrong. Combat is recognised a a high risk activity, this is one of the reasons why.

 

[Screemonster]

Happened to me plenty of times. Either jump out and back in again so you've only got the assault bounty or head to the IF.

If it is a killing shot, big deal. Find a bounty hunting spot in a system with a different controlling faction. Part of the fun of the game for a lot of players I'd how to deal with situations where something has gone wrong. Combat is recognised a a high risk activity, this is one of the reasons why.

nooooo but then they might have to face adversity and we can't have that

 

[CMDR Nathan Atterlein]

Wording is key to understanding text.

Whether there's "no reason to", or not, remains a matter of opinion. If some players get their fun with scant regard for the fun of others then maybe the consequences for taking all of the fun from an interaction should be less fun.

The also have often quite different wants from their game experience.

If you find nuking the whole planet to get rid of the cockroaches an efficient method, fine by me. Personally, I don't mind differing "wants", as long as they are not unintentionally destructive to other, loosely connected aspects of the game. There are no simple solutions to crimes and punishment, adding more severity to it would entail serious collateral damage to elite. The severity would be a matter of execution, without really achieving the desired outcome.

 

[Drelthar]

What utter nonsense! I have active fire on a ship, and some lolwut of an NPC flies through my line of fire almost at touching distance, but, because the game cannot determine whether the NPC was a smacktard or not, I get "credited" with shooting it.

How much damage are you outputting before you let off the trigger?
If you aren't targetting the ship, they have a pretty decent tolerance level of "friendly fire"

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

Just yesterday I was being all handsome and heroic and killing NPC pirates, the police jumped in, thanks fellas but I've got this, (polite smile, don't check my record) when I accidentally brushed a copper with my lasers (he flew into them). He sent me a message to say watch my fire. I could have argued the toss and said "Well, technically, I was watching my fire, in fact, I was watching it very carefully when I saw you, like a donkey-eyed maniac, fly into the line of fire". But the rozzers never appreciate a bit of honesty (ironic really) and anyway, what is the point of having a chat with the NPC filth?

Point being, they didn't open fire on me, I incurred no fines or bounty and remember, I had shot the sheriff. (finish the song yourselves)

 

[Deleted member 192138]

What utter nonsense! I have active fire on a ship, and some lolwut of an NPC flies through my line of fire almost at touching distance, but, because the game cannot determine whether the NPC was a smacktard or not, I get "credited" with shooting it.

If you tunnel vision on your target and don't want to pay attention to what's going on around you - based on your radar and the visibility out the cockpit, if you don't want to make controlled shots when you have a safe firing line - if you're risk averse then you can always use smart rounds multicannons to make up the difference.
Why should an NPC be any more aware of risks and threat in a firing zone than you are willing to be?

 

[Chrystoph]

If you tunnel vision on your target and don't want to pay attention to what's going on around you - based on your radar and the visibility out the cockpit, if you don't want to make controlled shots when you have a safe firing line - if you're risk averse then you can always use smart rounds multicannons to make up the difference.
Why should an NPC be any more aware of risks and threat in a firing zone than you are willing to be?

Making an awful lot of presumptions about my game play, aren't you? Of course, since you're just looking to be offensive, I suppose that is only to be expected. After all, you didn't actually contribute to the conversation.

If you change the situation to a player, the entire scenario assumes the level of a farce because no player is going to INTO someone else's fire the way NPCs do routinely, especially when doing so requires them to specifically steer towards it. Within a cone of maneuver, flying forward, you have to choose both the correct angle and the right velocity to get in front of someone. Literally every other combination generates a miss.

The fact of the matter is that the devs were lazy in how they wrote the AI because it only functions when the interacting parties are one player and one NPC. Any other possible combination doesn't generate the situation being described.

In a standard sensor envelope, players are likely to add 4 to 8 additional elements for an AI to be aware of. They already do that when you and they are hostile. Turning that on full time, especially when the NPCs want to get away from the shooting, would not be difficult.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Notoriety and ATR were implemented specifically to put a damper on people commiting mass cop murder for the BGS, which can absolutely be carried out in solo.

The saddest part with this is that it doesn't really stop players from doing this, first you get to a few waves of reinforcement before ATR arrives, so most of the time it is very easy to leave before they engage you. Once in super cruise, pick a new target and now ATR have all forgotten about you and you get some new waves of reinforcement before ATR arrives again!
so it simply slowed you down a bit, when I was doing this in my Vulture, by the time ATR showed up, it was time to rearm anyway, so was a good point to move away anyway.

 

[Screemonster]

If you change the situation to a player, the entire scenario assumes the level of a farce because no player is going to INTO someone else's fire the way NPCs do routinely, especially when doing so requires them to specifically steer towards it. Within a cone of maneuver, flying forward, you have to choose both the correct angle and the right velocity to get in front of someone. Literally every other combination generates a miss.

Within a cone of fire, aiming forward, you have to choose the correct angle and the right lead distance to land a shot on someone. Literally every other combination generates a miss.

When you're tunnel-visioned onto an opponent, how many times have you randomly been shot by friendly NPCs? It happens more often than you think.

If you can keep out of their line of fire in a furball, you can keep the booger-hook off the bang-switch when they're in yours.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Making an awful lot of presumptions about my game play, aren't you? Of course, since you're just looking to be offensive, I suppose that is only to be expected. After all, you didn't actually contribute to the conversation.

If you change the situation to a player, the entire scenario assumes the level of a farce because no player is going to INTO someone else's fire the way NPCs do routinely, especially when doing so requires them to specifically steer towards it. Within a cone of maneuver, flying forward, you have to choose both the correct angle and the right velocity to get in front of someone. Literally every other combination generates a miss.

The fact of the matter is that the devs were lazy in how they wrote the AI because it only functions when the interacting parties are one player and one NPC. Any other possible combination doesn't generate the situation being described.

In a standard sensor envelope, players are likely to add 4 to 8 additional elements for an AI to be aware of. They already do that when you and they are hostile. Turning that on full time, especially when the NPCs want to get away from the shooting, would not be difficult.

Just stop murdering clean ships if you don't want notoriety.
Understand the game mechanics, use the tools around you for spatial awareness and exercise trigger discipline to not get tagged for kills you don't intend.
Why is this concept so offensive to you?

I've done plenty of combat in the game. It's really hard to get notoriety without intending to. I'm not sure how this is such a burden you specifically seem to suffer with. The basics of "if you don't have a clean firing solution, hold off until likely obstacles are out the way" doesn't strike me as a particularly absurd suggestion. guess everyone else is wrong except you.

 

[Chrystoph]

Ah, yes, the ever popular, I'm losing the argument, so I'll change what I am responding to so that I can be winning... Who knew El Presidenté was contagious?

For the record, I have no notoriety.

The basics of "if you don't have a clean firing solution, hold off until likely obstacles are out the way" doesn't strike me as a particularly absurd suggestion.

Not absurd at all, just not what I was talking about, therefore unrelated to the material you responded to.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

I haven't changed my position. From the start my position has been that getting notoriety for being sloppy is

A useful lesson in trigger discipline.

You're the one that's getting omegangry at having to just not shoot NPCs. Frankly this conversation is absurd and a little bizarre that you're so emotionally invested in it that you're even approaching it in this way.

If you're going to fire at an NPC be minimally aware of other NPCs around you so that you don't shoot the wrong thing. If an NPC is about to fly through your line of fire, pause firing. That's not an offensive proposition. That's all I've even been speaking about. You've inserted yourself in this discussion demanding something from me that I have no idea about, calling me offensive and then dancing around in circles so you can get an argument from me about something I literally could't care less about. Just stop shooting NPCs you don't want to kill. Use your eyes and the tools the game gives you to avoid this. Why is this such a big deal.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Making an awful lot of presumptions about my game play, aren't you? Of course, since you're just looking to be offensive, I suppose that is only to be expected. After all, you didn't actually contribute to the conversation.

If you change the situation to a player, the entire scenario assumes the level of a farce because no player is going to INTO someone else's fire the way NPCs do routinely, especially when doing so requires them to specifically steer towards it. Within a cone of maneuver, flying forward, you have to choose both the correct angle and the right velocity to get in front of someone. Literally every other combination generates a miss.

The fact of the matter is that the devs were lazy in how they wrote the AI because it only functions when the interacting parties are one player and one NPC. Any other possible combination doesn't generate the situation being described.

In a standard sensor envelope, players are likely to add 4 to 8 additional elements for an AI to be aware of. They already do that when you and they are hostile. Turning that on full time, especially when the NPCs want to get away from the shooting, would not be difficult.

This is so wrong on so many things...


Players are equally clueless and fly straight through other ships firing at each other.. But there is one huge difference. the NPC's seems to have quite better trigger discipline, so they for most part have stopped firing when a player fly in front them when they are firing at a target, as opposed to what this thread was about, players keep firing when NPC appears in front of them....


And if trigger discipline is hard to get, there is a solution to that.... Turrets... that can do trigger discipline automatically. Also avoid using big damage weapons like Plasmas is also a got idea if you simply spam them everywhere...

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Just run smart round multicannons. If you can gank people while they're inside an anarchy station with them, they're fine for this purpose. Clearly the concept of holding fire is too alien so just engineer a solution to the problem.

 

[Sylow]

Just a sidenote on all the "one stray shot" comments: that's simply not true. As long as the damage you do to a targets shields is below a certain threshold, all it does is complain, without you being considered a criminal. So yes, if you land your double C4 PA salvo on an unsuspecting target, you of course go criminal right away, but just a stray shot of your MC or laser won't be a big deal.

And in the end, it's really just about trigger discipline. I would not be aware of any legislation or military, where "he ran into my line of fire" would be an accepted reason for shooting somebody.

That being said, i also think that C&P in the current state is not that great. But my point of view is just the opposite of the OP: once you understand the system it's inconsequential. It doesn't do its job, as it can be avoided way too easily. Just pay a tiny bit of attention on where you are going or switch your ship, notoriety will then go away by itself again.

I would prefer if it would have more meaning, e.g. notoriety would stay on you till you actively get rid of it. Which would require to do redemption missions or something like that. It should have more significant consequences than it does now. But high notoriety should also grant access to specific content. (Possible content for that would be crime lords which only interact with you when you have a certain notoriety level. While in turn there could be other places where your options will permanently be limited if you ever in your commanders lifetime went over a certain level of notoriety. You built up notoriety, even if you are cleared by the law, your history remains and some people don't want to be seen with you. )

But that all, while being new content and being interesting, also would be work to implement. I am not holding my breath...

 

[Screemonster]

Just a sidenote on all the "one stray shot" comments: that's simply not true. As long as the damage you do to a targets shields is below a certain threshold, all it does is complain, without you being considered a criminal. So yes, if you land your double C4 PA salvo on an unsuspecting target, you of course go criminal right away, but just a stray shot of your MC or laser won't be a big deal.

And in the end, it's really just about trigger discipline. I would not be aware of any legislation or military, where "he ran into my line of fire" would be an accepted reason for shooting somebody.

That being said, i also think that C&P in the current state is not that great. But my point of view is just the opposite of the OP: once you understand the system it's inconsequential. It doesn't do its job, as it can be avoided way too easily. Just pay a tiny bit of attention on where you are going or switch your ship, notoriety will then go away by itself again.

I would prefer if it would have more meaning, e.g. notoriety would stay on you till you actively get rid of it. Which would require to do redemption missions or something like that. It should have more significant consequences than it does now. But high notoriety should also grant access to specific content. (Possible content for that would be crime lords which only interact with you when you have a certain notoriety level. While in turn there could be other places where your options will permanently be limited if you ever in your commanders lifetime went over a certain level of notoriety. You built up notoriety, even if you are cleared by the law, your history remains and some people don't want to be seen with you. )

But that all, while being new content and being interesting, also would be work to implement. I am not holding my breath...

I would love it if bounties required you to work to get rid of them rather than just paying at an IF. And honestly, switching ship shouldn't get you un-wanted, just let you lie low so the authorities don't shoot you on sight - the "wanted" icon on the bar would display as "fugitive" in systems where it was appropriate.
Anonymous access would still be needed even if you're not in your hot ship. Kill-warrant scanners should still be able to pick you out, and bounty hunters should still pop up to bother you occasionally, but a basic scan will still show you as clean. To avoid people suicidewinding, if your bounty is claimed when you're not in a hot ship, the hot ship is uninsured until you clear up the paperwork (ie. pay off the outstanding insurance fee at an authority contact or IF, with the option of paying it then and there on the rebuy screen)

Instead of paying them off at an IF, bounties would be negated by doing jobs that pop up in a similar manner to rank-up missions when at least one of your ships is hot - anarchies could offer these regardless of location, otherwise rival factions in systems where the bounty-issuing faction are present will offer to clear up this nasty misunderstanding. Add to that something like the faction you're wanted by refusing to offer any missions even in ports they don't control, and you've got some actual consequences for being a criminal.

 

[SimpiusMaximus]

Running into heavy handed punishment when doing scenarios in the current CG. Having to stop a scenario to pay off a bounty is crazy for just some accidental friendly fire on a station

 

[Screemonster]

Running into heavy handed punishment when doing scenarios in the current CG. Having to stop a scenario to pay off a bounty is crazy for just some accidental friendly fire on a station

have you tried not firing your weapons when they're pointing at the station

 

[Bigmaec]

have you tried not firing your weapons when they're pointing at the station

Outrageous. That station should evade my fire!

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Pad loitering is a crime punishable by death. My immersion is broken if the same is not true for scratching the paint on a station.