The laser build I shared does just fine in CZs. No need for inertial impact, no need for synths.
Yes I appreciate that, but the point of the thread was to explore options for an energy only build, which we have done. Whether I will use one or not I don’t know, but I have the option if I want to.
I know you said plasma slug just shifts the ammo to fuel but I've tried it with a beams and PA build where I slapped on a size 5 extra fuel tank in place of the fuel scoop (Chieftan) and I've not ever come close to running out of fuel.
This effectively means I'm able to store three times the ammo just by using different modules (impossible with normal kinetic ammo).
I'm technically losing armour (I could use size 5 ARM instead) but then I'm just extending my durability at a cost of ammo so I don't think I'm losing out.
It was a fun build, plenty viable and I never needed to refuel at all. And if ammo is the only reason you're needing to dock then you could've added another fuel tank again to extend the PA reserves even further.
I'm almost ready to engineer a bunch of rails and I'll do the same with them. I'm doing that for extra dps. I'll share my experience with you if it works OK.
Granted, it's not infinite. But the only way to do that is 100% lasers. And there's no way that'll ever be efficient versus engineered npcs (in my opinion).
This effectively means I'm able to store three times the ammo just by using different modules (impossible with normal kinetic ammo).
I'm technically losing armour (I could use size 5 ARM instead) but then I'm just extending my durability at a cost of ammo so I don't think I'm losing out.
It was a fun build, plenty viable and I never needed to refuel at all. And if ammo is the only reason you're needing to dock then you could've added another fuel tank again to extend the PA reserves even further.
I'm almost ready to engineer a bunch of rails and I'll do the same with them. I'm doing that for extra dps. I'll share my experience with you if it works OK.
Granted, it's not infinite. But the only way to do that is 100% lasers. And there's no way that'll ever be efficient versus engineered npcs (in my opinion).
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Most of the discussion here has been pretty theoretical. I made a brief video on how it is to fight in high CZ with the full laser corvette build I shared. Adding a single C1 corrosive MC would be a nice addition to the build, but to keep it pure here it is in its full laser version. During my test runs I cleared the CZ a few times and eventually ended up using 1 SCB charge on my third clear. There are few situations where one gets attacked by several ships while fighting a sturdier ship and on those situations it gets a bit slow with full laser build as I had to use 4/0/2 pips while tanking and could not always use the largest lasers. With some kinetic additions that would be somewhat easier. Anyhow I never failed to clear the CZ and never felt like it was hard to take out ships, no matter what they were.
Source: https://youtu.be/2rjHKxgIyi0
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Agreed plasma slug is a cheap way of carrying more ammo as both tanks and fuel are cheap, but it is still a compromise and uses a slot. On most medium ships you are going to want the 5 slots for something else so you either have a smaller tank or use several slots to get the required fuel tankage, losing you space for HRP/MRP’s.
Understood.
I'd only say then that if you're unwilling to sacrifice an MRP because you'll use them then they're also, essentially, ammo. Just not for a weapon. And if you go full energy, you'll be sacrificing damage somewhere and so you'll be much more likely to need and use up that MRP faster. I suppose it ends up a matter of not if you're willing to compromise but what you're willing to compromise.
Personally, I'd love to have a pure energy build that didn't feel slow compared to the alternatives. Plasma slug combined with one additional fuel tank is as close as I've found to that (because I just never think about ammo conservation - which is the part of kinetics that bothers me - whilst still providing optimal damage in most cases) but appreciate it's not what you're looking for.
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The frustrating thing about energy builds is getting that hull killing ability. Contrast that with gun builds where it is perfectly viable to do an all gun build as you can buff guns to help kill shields and the sheer DPS they can put out helps even more. Add that to the low distributor draw and energy requirements and guns have a lot of advantages vs the drawback of requiring ammo. I am going to keep experimenting and use some of the ideas in this thread, but will probably end up with one of the gun light compromises. Going to try inertial impact next. Opinions vary from completely useless to viable if you can stay in close. I will see how I get on.
I've tried my rail slug build and it's really fun but they seem to use fuel a lot more than PAs so got down to half fuel after a relatively short time. So I guess I'd need to add more tanks to compensate. So far, my PA build has been the most balanced, just not quite as much oomph as this rails build and even less than my frags, but that's easy to run out of ammo so fast.
You're right with what you say about kinetics being more versatile. That's been my experience too. Whether that's ultimately good game design I'm not certain but I suppose you have to do something to cover the negative of needing to replenish ammo.
You're right with what you say about kinetics being more versatile. That's been my experience too. Whether that's ultimately good game design I'm not certain but I suppose you have to do something to cover the negative of needing to replenish ammo.
Indeed, but they have travel-to-target time, limited ammo and reload time.
Lasers would be just too powerful if they had a damage-type-changer as good as incendiary is to multicannons.
Hitscans are powerful and Long range hitscans are even more
Agreed. Though in most cases the only fundamental difference is ammo. Travel time (needing to aim at a circle instead of directly at the ship) might result in a few more missed shots even if aiming perfectly but this is a constant since day one. The versatility of kinetics (particularly mcs) has improved since engineers so I don't think that was to make up for flight time.
Reload time is another valid reason but energy weapons have a similar drawback in distro draw (and both reload time and distro draw can be negated entirely by engineers with certain builds).
It's not that I disagree with you but I did say right after the words you quoted that there's a reason kinetics are more versatile. I just don't necessarily agree that it would be impossible to allow Lasers to do more kinetic damage with an appropriate offset elsewhere that would compensate (significantly higher distro draw being a really obvious one). But fd just chose not to go down this route so we're left with the fact that you can go all kinetics viably and retain efficiency but not so with energy.
Let's assume it's not possible to have made it swing both ways (it is but for the sake of argument) I still don't really think that's good.
I preferred it before engineers when it was much more clean cut and polarised. All energy was actually viable then because we didn't have ridiculously strong shields and hulls. That's really why I say "I don't think it's necessarily a good thing" despite knowing that, right now, it's sort of necessary because combat balance is really messy.
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With the exception of rails which are point and shoot, travel time is an issue, but I would argue not that much of an issue, given that all kinetic builds are viable and pretty much the meta for PvP. Energy builds have another issue and that is the rapid fall off in damage over 500m compared to much longer ranges for kinetics. Even SRB rails have a 1 Km range before fall off. I doubt that having a hull damaging energy buff would upset the balance too much.
Rails are the exception. And they're hitscans too, like lasors.
But they come only as fixed, they do mostly heat damage (60%), they have limited ammo, they have high energy and thermal requirements and not at last, they're a pain to shoot because of the delay.
Their fall-off is also really bad, that's why most people are using Long range as mod (but also because microgimbal is so awesomely broken)
The fall off is better than lasers as I pointed out, even SRB rails have double the distance that lasers have without long range mod. They also have some very useful experimentals like feedback cascade and super pen. They are not the only fixed weapon, PA’s are fixed too and despite the lag I find rails easier to hit with than PA’s, but that maybe just a practice issue. As for microgimballing we are lucky to get any at all. Real life fixed weapons are, well fixed. No gimballing micro or otherwise.
I love your build man. That shield configuration is frankly just crazy. I'm seriously going to go back and completely reconfigure my entire Corvette build. I'm using prismatic shields and I have almost 3K less shield strength than your Bi weave build.
I have a corvette all beams that almost continually firing melts a high cz in 20 minutes.
I do have my elite pilot SLF with me that helps enormously.
Womble build for mats and a few scbs with sinks to offset heat.
Totally free to use no ammo no drawbacks. I would've put a smaller power plant in but this one was a spare so..
5 beams on MAIN fire and huge beams on alt with those nasty little turrets telling me exactly where the enemy is. Handy
Wingman is in a beams taipan.
Works well!
o7 cmdrs
s.orbis.zone
I do have my elite pilot SLF with me that helps enormously.
Womble build for mats and a few scbs with sinks to offset heat.
Totally free to use no ammo no drawbacks. I would've put a smaller power plant in but this one was a spare so..
5 beams on MAIN fire and huge beams on alt with those nasty little turrets telling me exactly where the enemy is. Handy
Wingman is in a beams taipan.
Works well!
o7 cmdrs
Coriolis EDCD Edition
A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous
s.orbis.zone
Thank you, I really appreciate it. I built the shields for that with the same mentality as the weaponry: C7 fast charge biweave with 67% thermal resist yields a combo that takes only a little of the damage received and charges it back really fast. Basically SCBs are one more type of ammo and if I would need to use them often, it would not benefit me much that I do not need to go to station to rearm the weapons. Anyhow, thank you for your kind words and see you in the black.
I love how the thermal resistance is almost 9,000 while it still has a fast recharge rate. I have something similar for a chieftain I fly but its quick and agile.
I am glad you like it. I personally avoid weapon combos like this. It shows in TTD stat that it takes 3 seconds to empty the weapon capacitor with 4 pips to weapons. It is 177 dps with 30 energy per second, that is on average 5,9 damage per energy. My current laser setup has 119 dps with 12,5 eps yielding 9,52 dpe and 40 seconds to empty capacitor with 4 pips. But that also means that there are a bit more options on how to approach pips as with better DPE you gain overall over 60% more damage over time and you can switch between shields, engines or weapons without restricting damage output that much. But on short bursts of course, higher dps is nice and one can adjust to many fighting styles. It is nice to see different loadouts also.