[video] 2000 hours of Elite Dangerous

[Ian Phillips]

Seems a few people think I was talking about FD in my comment.

I wasn't.

Sometimes people do things without any thought of having a financial incentive/reward.

And I honestly have no idea what @House0fDerp is talking about. Maybe you could explain?

 

[House0fDerp]

Seems a few people think I was talking about FD in my comment.

I wasn't.

Sometimes people do things without any thought of having a financial incentive/reward.

And I honestly have no idea what @House0fDerp is talking about. Maybe you could explain?

I thought you were responding to Yamiks' criticism of the rewards for the winners with that statement. Specifically his calling out that the cost for a unique reward would be trivial. My response was to the effect of pointing out that money not being a reason doesn't invalidate the criticism for not doing it.

I'd argue the same still applies to your revised statement. Just because those competing didn't do it for a specific reward doesn't mean one can't think less of FDev for not doing something special for those that volunteer assets to their game.

 

[Ian Phillips]

I thought you were responding to Yamiks' criticism of the rewards for the winners with that statement. Specifically his calling out that the cost for a unique reward would be trivial. My response was to the effect of pointing out that money not being a reason doesn't invalidate the criticism for not doing it.

I'd argue the same still applies to your revised statement. Just because those competing didn't do it for a specific reward doesn't mean one can't think less of FDev for not doing something special for those that volunteer assets to their game.

Thanks for the clarification.

My point is that FD DID do something special. Money does not even enter into the equation, and anyone thinking it does have a place has just so totally missed the point!

 

[House0fDerp]

Thanks for the clarification.

My point is that FD DID do something special. Money does not even enter into the equation, and anyone thinking it does have a place has just so totally missed the point!

I don't think actual money is the ask or criticism. I think the criticism is a lack of something unique that might signal their contribution to the game in the game.

Even the video complaints aren't asking for them to be monetarily paid.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

I'm pretty sure that the station add competition was something that the community had asked for. I doubt that anyone who entered really cared whether they would get any reward besides seeing their adds in the game. Though I do agree with Yamiks that FD could have been a tad more generous with no loss to themselves.

But I didn't enter this competition. However, I have submitted many CG proposals, and have had 4 of these run. This has been with no expectation of any reward, besides the feeling that I have made a small contribution to our community.

 

[Alec Turner]

I don't think actual money is the ask or criticism. I think the criticism is a lack of something unique that might signal their contribution to the game in the game.

More unique than having our own advert in the game?

 

[MadDogMurdock]

If you have to put a price on everything, you don't know the value of anything.

The winners seem content that their art being visible in the game is reward enough.
I thank them for their efforts to enrich the game's ambience.

 

[Viajero]

Tell that to a company in the Entertainment Sector that often prioritizes Shareholder value over entertaining their customers...

Ian's clarification notwithstanding, you realize that one of the best ways to create shareholder value in that sector is precisely to entertain customers well?

 

[Steyla]

Here's my {alot} of hours report

Warning : simple, concise and honest, White Knights better scroll past it

V1 Base Game (V1.x) was a series of placeholder features, although one could argue they've built a basic fundament for later additions. Still, some of these haven't materialized in years, so for the longest time it looked like things were here to stay.
V2 Horizons possibly the biggest disappointment; a playable tech demo but with nearly no gameplay value (lack of time? lack of resources? total failure of imagination? Ultra-lazy development? You be the judge)

V3 Beyond promised to revisit the broken, leaking or corroded fundament of placeholders (house of cards and smoke started coming up)
- V3.0 Engineers? Just a quickfix for the issues created by their "Unholy Cambridge Church of RNGesus", incl. Material Traders aka Material Black Holes and their intentionally sadistic Trade Ratios
- V3.0 C&P? Total fail. Interestingly, the concept was presented early enough and (professionally for the most part) torn apart for being overly complicated, non-functional and missing the point. Yet, it got implemented unchanged. Exactly how not to do it.

V3.1 mostly was and likely V3.2 might be sheer focus on optimizing to milk the cow. Monetization. New Ships are nice but don't address core game problems.
So here's everyone still waiting for Beyond to deliver what it was intended to do.
We haven't started yet.
And that's extremely bad news... unless David has some 1000 people hired to work exclusively on the Q4 Update and plans to deliver a Telephone book sized Patchnotes.

Thus, all in all, it seems Beyond might miss the mark and won't begin touching upon core Game mechanics until Q4 hits and Exploration & Mining will see an Extension. Those Extensions will have to prove themselves.
I'd say most of the delays and shortcomings were due to ELITE sitting in maintenance mode with 100 people supposedly working on it.
I'd bet they did - but only during lunch breaks and after-hours.
All real work went into other IP in order to meet deadlines (where they produced a title criticized for : lacking complexity with heavy focus on monetization ).

So what fundamentally changed?
David is still as good and snug of a salesman as ever, who does care alot. About shares, that is. He could sell plastic cups and be super excited about an upcoming new color of plastic cups
The team is still super excited about 3 months worth of work that produced Patchnotes smaller than what most Indie Productions get done in 1/4 of the time with less than a handful of coders.
Core Game is still riddled with as many (or sometimes even more) bugs and/or shortcomings as years ago.
Balancing to FDev is still like calculating the Energy requirements and polydimensional dependencies to create a Schwarzschild Wormhole in theoretical physics. Often looks like Trial & Error based on pure Spreadsheet design with zero in-game experience.
Game still relies on 3rd Party Tools like no other Game in known existence (I'm honestly not aware of anything even remotely close to the massive dependence on external/crowdsourced Information).
Game isn't dead - but instead has proven to be a V16 that still survives running on 6 cylinders. Lots of smoke & friction and alot of potential lost - but it keeps going.
Especially if you manage to find a place and friends to stick around - Game still delivers very well, if only for the social interaction (outside of the game, but hey, in ELITE nearly everything happens outside of the Game ).
I could argue against alot of things but not "bang for the buck". Somewhat helped by the time sinks, but one can easily spend thousands of hours. One has to keep that in perspective, not many Games permit that.

So far so good.
But... other titles are scheduled for release or are already live & receiving extensions. ELITE will eventually have to kick into high gear again and get things just right. At least that would be highly beneficial.
Some Common Sense (Balancing, Features, Mission System etc.) and Attention/Love to/for Detail are in order to make that happen.
Plus, we can't stay in maintenance mode forever without consequences, easy as that.

tl;dr SNAFU


Fly/land safe


CMDR Steyla

 

[House0fDerp]

More unique than having our own advert in the game?

Question since I genuinely don't know the answer, how would I ever know it was yours? If I saw you in game how would I ever know you contributed that?

And sure, you may not care. No one says you have to. We can still think it would be nice if FDev did something specific to this.

 

[Sylveria]

Ian's clarification notwithstanding, you realize that one of the best ways to create shareholder value is precisely to entertain customers well?

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

It's quite obvious (at least to most) that if people didn't feel the product interested them, they wouldn't be buying it, and thus increasing shareholder "value".

Some want to turn it into some sort of existential justification of corporate greed- rather than seeing their only real gripe is the difference of their own views of what entertains them to begin with.

IMO, if this community wasn't so divisive in terms of the details of what each considers "entertaining" to them, there would be an actual debate here.

 

[z993126]

[...]tech demo but with nearly no gameplay value[...]

Elite, from my perspective, isn't 'just a game', and as such must be thought of in wider terms than its gameness. The very concept of its setting--a sandbox the size of the Milky Way in which you can traverse literally astronomical distances and interact with planet-sized planets--precludes the ability to have something novel at every turn. And that's exactly what makes it magnificent, for me. It fills a niche in between Celestia/Space Engine and Star Citizen...it's neither wholly simulation nor wholly Twitch-Based-Game-in-Space.

 

[WR3ND]

One more hour and it was "2001 : A Space Odyssey"

If only we could supercruise between systems... Might add a bit more to the hour count too.

 

[Chorda]

Do you get the problem there?

As said : YES, work for whoever you want, for however much you want - your choice, your incentive!
Issue arrises when you start to think that having your work being featured is the prize you won! (to remind you : that is the GOAL of the competition, NOT the reward)

I thought the winners got a paintjob pack of their choice? Either way, it's pretty a damning indictment of Frontier's manipulative strategies that they've managed to con so many people out of the lifetime of income they would have enjoyed off the back of Bucky Ball adverts.

The Ian Bell army has just grown that much stronger.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Elite, from my perspective, isn't 'just a game', and as such must be thought of in wider terms than its gameness. The very concept of its setting--a sandbox the size of the Milky Way in which you can traverse literally astronomical distances and interact with planet-sized planets--precludes the ability to have something novel at every turn. And that's exactly what makes it magnificent, for me. It fills a niche in between Celestia/Space Engine and Star Citizen...it's neither wholly simulation nor wholly Twitch-Based-Game-in-Space.

You know, I'd pay real money if only we had a Sandbox.

I've traveled the scripted Open World Game over quite some distances, and I agree that's quite something. Space is big and they sure got that one right.
Still, my Opinion on the current state of Exploration is : watching Paint Dry.
Seen a few hundred Systems, you've seen them all, incl. the few bugs. Sure, there's a few outlier System Maps but they're basically Alpha rares. And even there it's just 0.1% honk & scan, 99.9% ELITE : Idle Games Edition (SuperCruise).
Is traveling 20000 or 60000 LY worth it, only to admire the Galaxy backdrop? You be the judge, I guess that's a little bit. Scenic view, better than nothing.

At least it's getting touched in Q4, so that's something.
But still, what did the 100+ Earth-Like worlds really affect that you might have sold to UC? Nothing. Your rare Stars? Nothing. Your scenic/rare constellations? Nothing but a few Credits.
Chances are, noone in-game will even ever see them. Game doesn't care nor react to your Discoveries.

In a Sandbox, I could actually do something with these Discoveries. And bringing the data back safely to UC would do something. Alas, it doesn't.
You can scan 10 Planets or 100.000. Or none at all. It literally does not matter, in-game there's no difference apart from some benign Credits and the limited "everything goes in here" bin that's the BGS, which probably doesn't even affect you the least as an Explorer.

In a Sandbox, the very 1st CMDR stumbling over some Thargoid Probe or any new Alien Structure would have automatically triggered the next phase of a pre-existing Storyline and all its already-finished effects.
The Ship Computer would have automatically transmitted the encounter after docking anywhere - with all consequences.
In ELITE? The own Ship didn't even realize the presence of a 2km sized Thargoid or Guardian Structure for the longest time, nor was our Discovery Scanner ever meant to discover any of these.

Things can't work that way and it's ultra lame when Players have to post Youtube Videos or Screenshots for Developers to kick in ("Oh look, someone finally found it... Now we can move on and manually forward the Storyline at our own pace").
(i.e. see Barnacles, where the 3rd CMDR to stumble over them was heralded as the "1st" - only due to total lack of a Sandbox which could have realized what's going on; even today you could approach a previously unknown Generation Ship, pull the logs... dock back at a Station and witness.... Nothing. Nothing happens. No GALnet story, no notification of local Authority "Wow, according to the logs you found a missing Generation Ship in our System! We'll immediately launch a SAR party". That's ELITE in a nutshell. Simply nothing happens in situations where you'd rightfully expect for something to happen, even if it's a small thing.)

All Exploration basically is right now : doing the exact same thing over and over and over and (insert 1.0*10E22 {and over} ) again. To no effect other than personal RolePlay or advance Exploration Rank. Use your Imagination(tm).

Disclaimer :
I still occasionally go on ELW hunts. Just for kicks, fully knowing I'm just killing some time and nothing will come from it. Nothing came from the last 50+, so why would #60 be any different?
One of the fundamental problems around here, as development of the Game mechanics and its results (Player Actions) literally always stops where modern Sandbox Games begin giving a Player Sandbox Options.
ELITE doesn't give you any Options - it merely keeps you prisoner on railroad tracks. If it isn't manually scripted, there's absolutely nothing you could do, end of story. Sad but true :/

But in the big scheme of it all... Rule #32 clearly applies to Exploration : Enjoy the little things

 

[Jenner]

IMO, if this community wasn't so divisive in terms of the details of what each considers "entertaining" to them, there would be an actual debate here.

That accounts for the majority of most gaming forum debates here or anywhere else. Fun is about as subjective a thing as you can get.

 

[znôrt]

Warning : simple, concise and honest

you didn't disappoint and cheerfully hit quite some nails there. very well put, and though i do think the game has its strengths worth some praise (you didn't address), this reality check could be a healthy read for many

More unique than having our own advert in the game?

It's really not all that uncommon for a content creator to be bothered by someone asking for free art.

i totally get Alec's point (congratulations btw!) and can see how any extra reward can be superfluous, but the argument against profiteering on people's good will and commitment is also strong. however, that's anybody's decision.

indeed it's not uncommon, what doesn't really fit here is the opportunity for it, development and delivery being at a very controversial point to say the least. i think frontier's community/marketing folks might have had good intentions, but could definitely have waited for a better occasion for a contest that would be otherwise straightforward. it just seems they inform themselves through braben's propaganda rather than actually feeling the community or, god forbid, play the game themselves.

 

[Suprakiwi]

Lol yamiks a veteran?!?

Oh come on, from what i have seen of your content there is little credibility in you being a veterian in anything other than immature prifanity or bringing out negtives with your opinion of the game... Or ripping off other peoples effort to find exploits and make a video on it for views. There are much more informative and educational streamers out there to watch OTHER than this garbage, just like your my little pony youtube channel.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

you didn't disappoint and cheerfully hit quite some nails there. very well put, and though i do think the game has its strengths worth some praise (you didn't address), this reality check could be a healthy read for many

Agreed, good point.
Especially since we see/have alot of Players with extreme amounts of in-game time. Skinner box conditioning aside, that's an achievement of the Game all on its own.

Since fair is fair, I have to admit it's generally easier to criticize than to create.
The Game clearly has shiny points (Audio FX is typically excellent for example) and Players enjoy these based on their personal preferences. These ELITE obviously has a few of and delivers them, otherwise there'd be noone here discussing

I guess I just belong to the kind of people who see the potential and how far we're away from realizing it. Especially since more often than not, it isn't really far away, there's just no visible intention of heading there.
Unsure if I should call that a "gift" or a "curse".
For years hoping for ELITE to transform or at least move into "Next Gen" Space Sim territory probably just was... painful? Disappointing maybe?
I always knew it could happen though, especially after one DDF point after another slowly was either canceled or implemented in a drastically simplified/dumbed-down way. Guess I expected more depth and gameplay options.

 

[Jenner]

Yeah, I suppose Frontier could have been a bit more generous with compensation for the winners, but really it was obvious from the beginning of that contest that the real prize was bragging rights. It's just cool to have your creation be a part of a game that you love. Naturally you can argue whether or not that is adequate compensation, but Frontier never suggested that anyone would get anything more substantial than warm fuzzies from seeing their work in-game. I think it was a cool little contest and I hope Frontier do more of that kind of community engagement in the future.

I do agree with Yamiks that one of the best parts of Elite is the community. I've met a lot of great people and have made some real friends around these here parts.

Lol yamiks a veteran?!?

Oh come on, from what i have seen of your content there is little credibility in you being a veterian in anything other than immature prifanity or bringing out negtives with your opinion of the game... Or ripping off other peoples effort to find exploits and make a video on it for views. There are much more informative and educational streamers out there to watch OTHER than this garbage, just like your my little pony youtube channel.

Spoiler

Seriously though it's okay if you take exception to his style and delivery but keep in mind that it's just a shtick. If you actually listen to the points he makes they are often thought provoking at the very least. As for his other content... I fail to see how its relevant.