General War never changes

[Dylan D]

I'm not saying I have the answers but it's a dilemma everyone has to ponder...

I'm grateful you made this point. I don't have all the answers myself, and it really is up to speculation at the end of the day.


At the start of the Invasion, Frontier said something interesting about Update 14 which hardened my stance towards escalation. They specified that Humanitarian Aid was possible to provide, and they even created new mission types for S&R Pilots to interact with at damaged stations when rescuing. Although the impact is significantly less than Anti-xeno Combat, we are still able to bring system into a state of recovery through rescue alone.


I also try to view Thargoid casualty on the same level as Human casualty, to remove species bias. When viewing the war through this lens, I can't bring myself to fight against the Thargoids in the Bubble. Each Interceptor that dies is another rung being added on the escalation ladder. As escalation progressively gets higher, more people will die as a result. Those innocent lives can be saved through Humanitarian means. I would even argue that more people would be saved if Anti-xeno pilots dedicated themselves towards rescue, but I'm not gonna ask anyone to stop enjoying the game for RP-only purposes.


For the record, most Peace Advocates believe that standing by and doing nothing is highly unethical, bordering anarchistic.

 

[Fizzatron]

I also try to view Thargoid casualty on the same level as Human casualty, to remove species bias. When viewing the war through this lens, I can't bring myself to fight against the Thargoids in the Bubble. Each Interceptor that dies is another rung being added on the escalation ladder. As escalation progressively gets higher, more people will die as a result. Those innocent lives can be saved through Humanitarian means.

I can understand that but I don't think projecting human traits onto the Thargoids is the correct solution, if the end goal is a peaceful resolution that would preclude the effective extinction of humanity. The Thargoids are intelligent creatures for sure, but with the hive-mind structure more akin to that of bees or ants, the queen (or equivalent) would very likely see the minions as utterly expendable and treat them as such. It is not a human trait to consider other people in the same way, even if sometimes situations dictate requirements of an expendable nature. In these situations, the casualties would be considered heroes for their sacrifice, even if it was 'only' a matter of following orders. I don't think that the Thargoids follow anything of that nature so in the matter of Thargoids vs. Humans, or until we know better, I think it is ethical to treat the Thargoids invading human populated systems as aggressors in the micro sense, even if in the macro scale of the conflict certain groups of humans are guilty of smacking the beehive and unleashing the results we are currently seeing.

Therefore, in any given encounter where Thargoids present themselves as a direct threat to human life, I think it is fair to engage and nullify the threat by whichever means is effective. And until diplomacy can be established, if ever, the only route for that is through armed engagement. Retreat is also an option but only a temporary one - I also think it's fair for established human controlled systems to stand their ground and defend their homes if possible if they are capable and willing.

I would even argue that more people would be saved if Anti-xeno pilots dedicated themselves towards rescue, but I'm not gonna ask anyone to stop enjoying the game for RP-only purposes.

Putting aside the 'who started it' component to this, I don't see any other goal that the Thargoids are seeking to achieve but the extermination of humanity, and there isn't any evidence of anything that would contradict that assessment that I currently know of. Unfortunately, given the nature of the Thargoids as we know it, that would effectively be consigning humanity to a perpetual nomadic existence ultimately ending in full extermination.

Honestly, and trying to look at it as dispassionately as possible, I think the quickest way to achieve peace is meet the Thargoids with greater force and thus force them into a position of having to sue for some sort of a peaceful resolution. Maybe the Thargoids don't realize that it was a minority contingent of humanity that started this that do not represent humanity, or maybe they don't care. Either way the current situation has to be brought to a point where the Thargoids will have to reassess their position to either retreat back into Witch Space or establish channels of communication where humanity can make its case and, as a matter of justice, bring the human perpetrators to account by whichever means is agreeable to both sides.

For the record, most Peace Advocates believe that standing by and doing nothing is highly unethical, bordering anarchistic.

Such speaks to the diverse nature of human viewpoints which I, as already mentioned, do not believe the Thargoids replicate.

 

[Dylan D]

I can understand that but I don't think projecting human traits onto the Thargoids is the correct solution, if the end goal is a peaceful resolution that would preclude the effective extinction of humanity.

Putting aside the 'who started it' component to this, I don't see any other goal that the Thargoids are seeking to achieve but the extermination of humanity, and there isn't any evidence of anything that would contradict that assessment that I currently know of. Unfortunately, given the nature of the Thargoids as we know it, that would effectively be consigning humanity to a perpetual nomadic existence ultimately ending in full extermination.

Prior to the Proteus Wave, for nearly five years, Human-Thargoid conflict was stable. Escalation occurred through Human provocation. Examples include: Meta-Alloy Harvesting, Thargoid Hunting, Markets for Thargoid Artifacts, etc. Salvation's choice to build a superweapon to exterminate the Thargoids is the reason why the invasion even began. Non-Hostile Thargoids in the Nebulae only attack those who shoot them... in-game. If you group up with a bunch of Commanders and one shoots, Interceptor is only concerned about the hostile target.

It seems clear to me that the Thargoids are now defending themselves from us on a much larger scale. Their goal is unknown, but they have one according to Ms. Seo and I don't believe it is fair to assume total extermination. If they truly wanted to wipe us out in totality they could have deployed the Maelstroms into Sol, Achenar & Alioth. Effectively destabilizing the Bubble from within.

Instead, they've established fronts on the outer-perimeter of the Bubble, facing towards the same Nebulae we pillaged for half a decade.
Seo Jin-Ae has stated there is a strategy to what the Maelstroms are trying to achieve. For these reasons, I don't believe total human extinction is the goal.

Unfortunately, given the nature of the Thargoids as we know it, that would effectively be consigning humanity to a perpetual nomadic existence ultimately ending in full extermination.

In my opinion this is totally untrue. The Thargoids were skirmishing only with those who provoked them in the Nebulae for nearly half a decade prior to the Proteus Wave. They were predominately non-hostile unless provoked... even after we deployed the Mycoid Virus on them. Somehow, the Thargoids managed to forgive us and move on from the past.

Based on the extinction mentality you've imposed above,
Why didn't the Thargoids launch an Invasion prior to the Proteus Wave, considering our past with the Mycoid?

I think it is ethical to treat the Thargoids invading human populated systems as aggressors in the micro sense, even if in the macro scale of the conflict certain groups of humans are guilty of smacking the beehive and unleashing the results we are currently seeing.

When it comes to Anti-xeno Defensive Operations within the Maelstrom Perimeters, I can understand. There is a strong distinction between the Bubble and the Nebulae. Some of our Peace Advocacy partners have decided to take up arms and defend in key areas within the Bubble. There are billions of citizens displaced by the conflict, many of whom are unfamiliar with Thargoids to begin with. Our role within the Pilot's Federation as Commanders gives us the ability to learn more about the Galaxy than the average citizen.

The goal of inter-species diplomacy should be towards preserving Human & Thargoid life wherever possible, but in this circumstance its hard to argue against AX intervention. We need to walk back and acknowledge the damage we've caused to Inter-species relations in the Nebulae.

Therefore, in any given encounter where Thargoids present themselves as a direct threat to human life, I think it is fair to engage and nullify the threat by whichever means is effective. And until diplomacy can be established, if ever, the only route for that is through armed engagement.

Inter-species diplomacy will not be something we can achieve overnight due to how much conflict lies in our wake. To increase our chances of successful negotiation, I believe we should avoid Anti-xeno conflict in the Nebulae and retreat from Thargoid areas wherever possible. That is their territory and we built infrastructure there to conduct invasive studies on them. Many people claim that the researchers entered the area oblivious to the risk it posed, despite centuries of classified interactions known to the Superpowers.

YTEC personnel watched as Commanders traveled to Asterope, California Nebula & Witch-Head to fight Thargoids in their own territory after the Maelstroms arrive. Restarting the cycle which motivated Salvation's Proteus Wave to begin with. We tracked these numbers because PX players wanted to protect Non-Hostile Thargoids for de-escalation purposes.

Retreat is also an option but only a temporary one - I also think it's fair for established human controlled systems to stand their ground and defend their homes if possible if they are capable and willing.

I believe retreat should be considered temporarily within the Nebulae until we are able to achieve what Mic Turner was able to in California. Inter-species Diplomacy has been hinted at in Soontil and indirectly in the California Nebula.

Mic Turner, founder of the Alliance, was able to build a warehouse over a Barnacle Site in the California Nebula without getting attacked. For years. In old lore, his wife, Meredith Argent, was connected directly to the Pro-xeno story line. Its one of those small details that sorta got put in and forgotten about that we keep trying to point towards... Humans could be on neutral terms if we just harvested with caution. Mic Turner was able to...

Such speaks to the diverse nature of human viewpoints which I, as already mentioned, do not believe the Thargoids replicate.

I believe they are much more nuanced than they appear to be, and it seems this way due to our limited interactions. Outside of lore related discussion, and more on the topic of development perspective... Some sort of plot-twist is coming. According to INRA research & the Codex, the Thargoids are comprised of multiple overlapping hives which operate together to achieve species oriented goals. They are interconnected and aligned in purpose, though I suspect very soon this will change. Frontier keeps throwing bread crumbs at us, little hints which indicate that we need to remain firm on peace. The Sovereign continues to post and host our ideals, and Frameshift live continues to host debates on the topic. There was a hint back at the Christmas Frameshift Live that indicated "We need to show the Thargoids we aren't all the same" from Elite Dev (Graduate Game Designer) Hannah V.


Image Date: ‎December ‎18, ‎2022

Inner Glyph Timeline

 

[Fizzatron]

<BIG SNIP>

Lots of food for thought and I appreciate the elaboration of your position. I hope you're correct honestly. The only thing I will say is that if it is true that the Thargoids are attempting to create a Mycoid Curtain to protect themselves from some of humanities aggression, how come they have not tried to open diplomatic relations themselves? Language is not a barrier when two intelligent species try to establish contact, there are many ways to abstract simple messages into universal terms, such as math etc.. I will also say that Seo Jin-Ae is likely to be a key character in this, it will be interesting to see how that plays out..

 

[Dylan D]

The only thing I will say is that if it is true that the Thargoids are attempting to create a Mycoid Curtain to protect themselves from some of humanities aggression, how come they have not tried to open diplomatic relations themselves?

This is where the conversation gets sorta speculative rather than concrete, though most of what was discussed above is more along the lines of a perspective anyways.

In the Elite Trilogy, specifically Frontier: First Encounters, the Thargoids did in fact contact us during the First Thargoid War by giving Humanity the tools to communicate.

This is a direct quote from Thargoid: Truth and Fiction, which was transcribed directly from the old game (12#)

We believe that the authorities of the two existing galactic powers (Federation & Empire) suppressed all communications (and continue to do so), using the
‘Thargoid Menace’ as a political tool to retain control over the pioneering colonists of the early Thirtieth century.

Soon after we brought these old quotes back up on Reddit, Twitter & Frontier Forums.... the Developers started using the 'Thargoid Menace' term again...

In old lore, the device given to Humanity was called the Inter-species Translator, and it was attached to a Turner Class ship called Argent's Quest. Working like a Module, it was used to faciliate direct communication with Thargoid pilots. It was owned by Meredith Argent, wife of Mic Turner. The player during this game could actually fly said ship, and use it to work with the Thargoids to steal a Mycoid Vaccine from an INRA facility.

Not only do most story elements exist across both titles, this Vaccine appears to exist in Elite Dangerous as well.
A lot of system names changed, but overall their locations appear to be relatively consistent with the old games.
You can align the map in Elite Dangerous a certain way to view the 2D map from Elite 2 & FFE.

I believe communication is already available, but the Superpowers will not let us access it.
From the Thargoid perspective, they tried and we ignored them. We confuse ourselves with our own politics, so I would be surprised if the Thargoids understood this discrepancy.

 

[Fizzatron]

This is where the conversation gets sorta speculative rather than concrete, though most of what was discussed above is more along the lines of a perspective anyways.

In the Elite Trilogy, specifically Frontier: First Encounters, the Thargoids did in fact contact us during the First Thargoid War by giving Humanity the tools to communicate.

This is a direct quote from Thargoid: Truth and Fiction, which was transcribed directly from the old game (12#)


Soon after we brought these old quotes back up on Reddit, Twitter & Frontier Forums.... the Developers started using the 'Thargoid Menace' term again...

In old lore, the device given to Humanity was called the Inter-species Translator, and it was attached to a Turner Class ship called Argent's Quest. Working like a Module, it was used to faciliate direct communication with Thargoid pilots. It was owned by Meredith Argent, wife of Mic Turner. The player during this game could actually fly said ship, and use it to work with the Thargoids to steal a Mycoid Vaccine from an INRA facility.

Not only do most story elements exist across both titles, this Vaccine appears to exist in Elite Dangerous as well.
A lot of system names changed, but overall their locations appear to be relatively consistent with the old games.
You can align the map in Elite Dangerous a certain way to view the 2D map from Elite 2 & FFE.

I believe communication is already available, but the Superpowers will not let us access it.
From the Thargoid perspective, they tried and we ignored them. We confuse ourselves with our own politics, so I would be surprised if the Thargoids understood this discrepancy.

Again, great stuff that I wasn't aware of. I was still an Amiga diehard and was eagerly awaiting FFE arriving on the Amiga, which we all know didn't happen so I didn't get to experience that chapter of Elite's historical lore.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Yeah the problem has always been what gets the hairless apes juices flowing?? An invasion/ combat or peace ? Thargoids are only reacting to what we do.
The old lore has been changed / forgotten ( intentionally?) to suit new storylines.
It's the same old story , humans poke alien with short stick and then "shout we didn't do nuffin give honest , these aliens are the bad guys " when the aliens retaliate... Doh
Look at the guardians ? They were "innocent ", " we didn't do nuffin honest guv " in their words and what happened their AI decided they were worse than the thargoids and wiped them out .
Thargoids viewed hairless apes as a small inconvenience nothing more ....