What am I missing...?
- Thread starter LifesAJourney
- Start date
Some weeks ago we talked about those things on our Discord (although someone found such things in IC 1805 Sector). The most fitting hypothesis was:
These 3-star symbol usually means: It's a nebula -> the star forge wanted to make a nebula out of this system -> that nebula would have been in a zone where no nebula is allowed -> the star forge hid that system/nebula -> the Odyssey UI is able to show hidden things possible bug)
These 3-star symbol usually means: It's a nebula -> the star forge wanted to make a nebula out of this system -> that nebula would have been in a zone where no nebula is allowed -> the star forge hid that system/nebula -> the Odyssey UI is able to show hidden things possible bug)
IIRC there's only one H system per boxel.
For some reason the game is listing all possible locations though only the one is actually there.
For some reason the game is listing all possible locations though only the one is actually there.
No.
It's one H boxel per sector, not one H system per boxel. There can ve hundreds of H mass systems in a sector.
Yes, the cursor moves to an empty and non-navigable place. Like a placeholder for something that has not been generated for some reason.
I checked several dozen of similar placeholders in many sectors, it was always nothing there. No systems, no nebulae.
Now I think it might be a bug. All those not generated systems (due to not enough mass in the sector, I guess) should be hidden and only the generated one (H56 from my screenshot) should be visible and available for GalMap search.
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The cursor for these doesn't always move to the object in question, there are even some star names you can enter into the search box in the galmap and it takes you to empty space, haven't been able to work that one out yet but I am assuming they were originally there when the Stellar Forge generated the galaxy and for some reason or other were removed, leaving the location with the star name but no star to navigate to. You can't navigate to a nebula at all, only to stars in a nebula, even the ones with a proper stellar name, such as PRAI HYPOO AA-A H60, although it will zoom to the center of the nebula with no issues, but you can't target it.
Now what I think is happening here is that the boxels, just like nebula, stars and other stellar objects, also have to have a designated name in the Stellar Forge that's created when the Stellar Forge creates the galaxy, and that these names are located at the center of mass of the specific boxel it represents, but because there's no physical object there there's nothing to attach the name to, so it doesn't appear. Just like nebula designation as above when it zooms to the center of mass of the nebula they represent you are zooming to the center of mass of the boxel. That's the only suggestion I can make here, that these stellar designators are boxel labels in the galaxy map.
Disclaimer: this is just my understanding, maybe I'm 100% wrong. (Prove it! 
)
So the first thing to understand is that every proc-gen name is resolvable to a specific set of coordinates. Taking PRAI HYPOO AA-A H60 as the example, the galaxy consists of 128x64x128 sectors and "PRAI HYPOO" will resolve to a specific x/y/z in the galaxy. "AA-A h" tells us the masscode and the location of the boxel within the sector (for mass code h, there is exactly 1, and it is the size of the sector). "60" tells us the number of the system, and that part can tell us the very exact location within the boxel that the system sits. Each LY in the galaxy is split into 32 - meaning a 1280x1280x1280 actually has 40960 x 40960 x 40960 possible points. Even an a-mass system can exist in a 320x320x320 set of points.
Others have worked out the first 2 parts - the system name and boxel ref decoding, but the exact location within the boxel still remains a mystery. That said, the coordinates are calculable by the client - it doesn't "ask the server" where a system is. I believe this video explains the mechanism at work. Ultimately, it comes down to "simple" algebra - if you have a formula, say, y=x+1 - you can always solve y given x - and x would be the "60" part.
With me so far? OK. h-mass systems are the only mass code I have witnessed to start at non-0 system numbers. It is my belief that it's actually an artificial dampening mechanism - otherwise stellar forge would be generating h-mass stars in places far away from the core. We see other hand-crafted damping mehcanisms, so this doesn't seem like a stretch. Regardless of the reason why, it is still a fact that some h-mass systems start above system number 0. In Horizons, you couldn't search to these systems, it is aware that they aren't there and won't take you. I believe it also won't take you to those proc-gen nebula with h-mass names, but that don't have a specific origin system. But it's an artificial limitation - the actual coordinates are knowable, and Odyssey will resolve both proc-gen nebula, and non-existing h-mass systems. Both HZN and Ody will not let you search past the end of a boxel - so you can't go to PRAI HYPOO AA-A H100000, but coordinates for that system are calculable, and if the interface didn't artificaially stop you, it'd take you to some seemingly random (actually not random, see above) spot.
But there are other systems that take you to phantom spots! These are all systems that have been tampered with by FDev (or "hand authored") if you prefer. They're usually (all?) catalogue systems that have ended up as secondary stars in a different system (but usually very close by). Both Ody and HZN will take you to these phantom systems - because the search is unaware that the specific systems doesn't exist - the system number is still within expected bounds, they are unaware of the concept of holes in the sequence.
IC 1805 Sector was also mentioned as having holes. I'm willing to bet that searching for whatever one of these "missing" systems is takes you specifically to proc gen system. The name IC 1805 Sector is not a proc gen name, it is an override name. In fact, anything with "Sector" in the name is an override - though slightly different to other hand-authored systems (like the HIP catalogue). These "Sectors" are spheres centered on a specific point, with a specific radius. Anything within those spheres gets renamed. Being spherical, they cut through boxels at their edges - so you might have "procgen XY-Z d0", "procgen XY-Z d1" outside of the sphere, but "procgen XY-Z d2" ends up within the sphere, and becomes "name override sector AB-C d2". The boxel code in these instances changes - but the mass and system number do not. Searching "procgen XY-Z d2" will still take you to name "override sector AB-C d2" - because it's a procgen name and it's cordinates are calculable. I actually don't know what searching for "override sector AB-C d1" - which would be outside the sphere for that override sector would do - but it can only be 1 of 2 things: a) it does nothing because it realises the coordinates for that system would be outside the sphere of "override sector", or, b) it takes you to "procgen XY-Z d1". My guess is the latter.
TLDR: Odyssey pretending certain h-mass systems are there when they aren't is a UI bug.
)So the first thing to understand is that every proc-gen name is resolvable to a specific set of coordinates. Taking PRAI HYPOO AA-A H60 as the example, the galaxy consists of 128x64x128 sectors and "PRAI HYPOO" will resolve to a specific x/y/z in the galaxy. "AA-A h" tells us the masscode and the location of the boxel within the sector (for mass code h, there is exactly 1, and it is the size of the sector). "60" tells us the number of the system, and that part can tell us the very exact location within the boxel that the system sits. Each LY in the galaxy is split into 32 - meaning a 1280x1280x1280 actually has 40960 x 40960 x 40960 possible points. Even an a-mass system can exist in a 320x320x320 set of points.
Others have worked out the first 2 parts - the system name and boxel ref decoding, but the exact location within the boxel still remains a mystery. That said, the coordinates are calculable by the client - it doesn't "ask the server" where a system is. I believe this video explains the mechanism at work. Ultimately, it comes down to "simple" algebra - if you have a formula, say, y=x+1 - you can always solve y given x - and x would be the "60" part.
With me so far? OK. h-mass systems are the only mass code I have witnessed to start at non-0 system numbers. It is my belief that it's actually an artificial dampening mechanism - otherwise stellar forge would be generating h-mass stars in places far away from the core. We see other hand-crafted damping mehcanisms, so this doesn't seem like a stretch. Regardless of the reason why, it is still a fact that some h-mass systems start above system number 0. In Horizons, you couldn't search to these systems, it is aware that they aren't there and won't take you. I believe it also won't take you to those proc-gen nebula with h-mass names, but that don't have a specific origin system. But it's an artificial limitation - the actual coordinates are knowable, and Odyssey will resolve both proc-gen nebula, and non-existing h-mass systems. Both HZN and Ody will not let you search past the end of a boxel - so you can't go to PRAI HYPOO AA-A H100000, but coordinates for that system are calculable, and if the interface didn't artificaially stop you, it'd take you to some seemingly random (actually not random, see above) spot.
But there are other systems that take you to phantom spots! These are all systems that have been tampered with by FDev (or "hand authored") if you prefer. They're usually (all?) catalogue systems that have ended up as secondary stars in a different system (but usually very close by). Both Ody and HZN will take you to these phantom systems - because the search is unaware that the specific systems doesn't exist - the system number is still within expected bounds, they are unaware of the concept of holes in the sequence.
IC 1805 Sector was also mentioned as having holes. I'm willing to bet that searching for whatever one of these "missing" systems is takes you specifically to proc gen system. The name IC 1805 Sector is not a proc gen name, it is an override name. In fact, anything with "Sector" in the name is an override - though slightly different to other hand-authored systems (like the HIP catalogue). These "Sectors" are spheres centered on a specific point, with a specific radius. Anything within those spheres gets renamed. Being spherical, they cut through boxels at their edges - so you might have "procgen XY-Z d0", "procgen XY-Z d1" outside of the sphere, but "procgen XY-Z d2" ends up within the sphere, and becomes "name override sector AB-C d2". The boxel code in these instances changes - but the mass and system number do not. Searching "procgen XY-Z d2" will still take you to name "override sector AB-C d2" - because it's a procgen name and it's cordinates are calculable. I actually don't know what searching for "override sector AB-C d1" - which would be outside the sphere for that override sector would do - but it can only be 1 of 2 things: a) it does nothing because it realises the coordinates for that system would be outside the sphere of "override sector", or, b) it takes you to "procgen XY-Z d1". My guess is the latter.
TLDR: Odyssey pretending certain h-mass systems are there when they aren't is a UI bug.
That's basically what I said (or meant), but much more detailedDisclaimer: this is just my understanding, maybe I'm 100% wrong. (Prove it!
So the first thing to understand is that every proc-gen name is resolvable to a specific set of coordinates. Taking PRAI HYPOO AA-A H60 as the example, the galaxy consists of 128x64x128 sectors and "PRAI HYPOO" will resolve to a specific x/y/z in the galaxy. "AA-A h" tells us the masscode and the location of the boxel within the sector (for mass code h, there is exactly 1, and it is the size of the sector). "60" tells us the number of the system, and that part can tell us the very exact location within the boxel that the system sits. Each LY in the galaxy is split into 32 - meaning a 1280x1280x1280 actually has 40960 x 40960 x 40960 possible points. Even an a-mass system can exist in a 320x320x320 set of points.
Others have worked out the first 2 parts - the system name and boxel ref decoding, but the exact location within the boxel still remains a mystery. That said, the coordinates are calculable by the client - it doesn't "ask the server" where a system is. I believe this video explains the mechanism at work. Ultimately, it comes down to "simple" algebra - if you have a formula, say, y=x+1 - you can always solve y given x - and x would be the "60" part.
With me so far? OK. h-mass systems are the only mass code I have witnessed to start at non-0 system numbers. It is my belief that it's actually an artificial dampening mechanism - otherwise stellar forge would be generating h-mass stars in places far away from the core. We see other hand-crafted damping mehcanisms, so this doesn't seem like a stretch. Regardless of the reason why, it is still a fact that some h-mass systems start above system number 0. In Horizons, you couldn't search to these systems, it is aware that they aren't there and won't take you. I believe it also won't take you to those proc-gen nebula with h-mass names, but that don't have a specific origin system. But it's an artificial limitation - the actual coordinates are knowable, and Odyssey will resolve both proc-gen nebula, and non-existing h-mass systems. Both HZN and Ody will not let you search past the end of a boxel - so you can't go to PRAI HYPOO AA-A H100000, but coordinates for that system are calculable, and if the interface didn't artificaially stop you, it'd take you to some seemingly random (actually not random, see above) spot.
But there are other systems that take you to phantom spots! These are all systems that have been tampered with by FDev (or "hand authored") if you prefer. They're usually (all?) catalogue systems that have ended up as secondary stars in a different system (but usually very close by). Both Ody and HZN will take you to these phantom systems - because the search is unaware that the specific systems doesn't exist - the system number is still within expected bounds, they are unaware of the concept of holes in the sequence.
IC 1805 Sector was also mentioned as having holes. I'm willing to bet that searching for whatever one of these "missing" systems is takes you specifically to proc gen system. The name IC 1805 Sector is not a proc gen name, it is an override name. In fact, anything with "Sector" in the name is an override - though slightly different to other hand-authored systems (like the HIP catalogue). These "Sectors" are spheres centered on a specific point, with a specific radius. Anything within those spheres gets renamed. Being spherical, they cut through boxels at their edges - so you might have "procgen XY-Z d0", "procgen XY-Z d1" outside of the sphere, but "procgen XY-Z d2" ends up within the sphere, and becomes "name override sector AB-C d2". The boxel code in these instances changes - but the mass and system number do not. Searching "procgen XY-Z d2" will still take you to name "override sector AB-C d2" - because it's a procgen name and it's cordinates are calculable. I actually don't know what searching for "override sector AB-C d1" - which would be outside the sphere for that override sector would do - but it can only be 1 of 2 things: a) it does nothing because it realises the coordinates for that system would be outside the sphere of "override sector", or, b) it takes you to "procgen XY-Z d1". My guess is the latter.
TLDR: Odyssey pretending certain h-mass systems are there when they aren't is a UI bug.
Good description.
I wonder about nebula suppression, because some of these do hint towards that. It could have been that the galaxy was meant to have more generated nebulae, but it turned out to have too many and it was a pain to constrain it. Even now, the majority of "large" nebulae are inside the galactic core: the ratio is somewhere around two-thirds of generated "large" nebulae inside the core, one-thirds outside of it. I'd imagine that if the suppression was more lenient and we had more nebulae around the galaxy, the core could easily be overcrowded with them.
Oh, by the way, if somebody wants to look into the nebula names, see where in the sequence they are, the Catalogue of Galactic Nebulae does have that listed too.
Also, a curiosity to add to the name overrides that @MattG wrote about: there is also one nebula inside such an area (one of the distant permit-locked ones), and it received the name "Bleia5 YE-A h30".
The way the Odyssey galaxy map's search differs from the old one is fascinating, though. I always wonder what made the Ovomly sector bug out way back when, and it might have been related to something: but since it was fixed, there's no way to tell anymore. It was probably only a permit lock gone wrong though. Anyway, I'm not sure that the bug is that Odyssey is pretending that a system is there where there isn't one: rather, the bug is that Odyssey takes you to a system which is supposed to be invisible.
Unfortunately, it still knows to hide the Test system
Oh, by the way, if somebody wants to look into the nebula names, see where in the sequence they are, the Catalogue of Galactic Nebulae does have that listed too.
Also, a curiosity to add to the name overrides that @MattG wrote about: there is also one nebula inside such an area (one of the distant permit-locked ones), and it received the name "Bleia5 YE-A h30".
The way the Odyssey galaxy map's search differs from the old one is fascinating, though. I always wonder what made the Ovomly sector bug out way back when, and it might have been related to something: but since it was fixed, there's no way to tell anymore. It was probably only a permit lock gone wrong though. Anyway, I'm not sure that the bug is that Odyssey is pretending that a system is there where there isn't one: rather, the bug is that Odyssey takes you to a system which is supposed to be invisible.
Unfortunately, it still knows to hide the Test system