What do people actually want from Frontier re: support for "racetracks"?

Probably would still take a significant amount of programming to make a course persistent.

On that note, I wonder if PG's could be used, somehow, to help with that?

I mean, even if we assume the code for demarking a race-course was pretty efficient, when you'd got 100,000 players all creating them (and, let's face it, it's inevitable that people are gonna create circuits to SagA and back, to Beagle Point or just right around the galaxy) it's probably going to add to the server load.

And then there's issues with people flying around and constantly seeing race-markers - and the markers, themselves, being abused for doing stuff like, say, marking VO's in a ring.

Perhaps those issues could be mitigated by storing the course data on a client-machine as some kind of plan-file which you could load/save to generate the course and then racers would have to join your PG to see the course?

That'd, hopefully, minimise the server load and it'd ensure that people who didn't want to see race-markers plastered all over the galaxy wouldn't see them if they weren't in the PG.
 
I hate to be that guy - but I really don't think it would be a good idea to let (arbitrary) players set up persistent markers in the game. Sure, we're all nice mature gentlebeings here - but the 14 year olds whose main goal is to spoil other people's fun are also out there, and I certainly won't take any bets about how long it will take for a marker set to set out indecent drawings, or for people DOSing race markers by placing a couple of hundred other markers in the immediate vincinity.

Setting up racing as an independent game component - like CQC? No further comment.

I wouldn't mind the option of setting up automated racetracks at specific locations (Pomeche Ridge comes to my mind) as in-game assets, but that's going to require at least some minimum effort from FD - one person for a couple of hours every week or so, going through and signing off community prepared racetracks.
E.g.:
  • make player based asset markers group specific, i.e. they're only accessible and visible for members of a private group (or squad?) while in that private group. That private group can then use these markers as they see fit, no further interaction from FD needed. Maybe give any group member the same privilege to set or remove any marker. Group or Squad based possible, but Group might be easier to implement.
  • any group owner/squad leader can then submit a marker set to FD for general approval. Depending on the workload that generates, submission might be gated behind a proof of community support, similar to the ideas that have been discussed for fleet carriers.
  • FD then approves (or not) that marker set for general use. The markers become permanent and visible in all game modes for everyone.
 
Perhaps those issues could be mitigated by storing the course data on a client-machine as some kind of plan-file which you could load/save to generate the course and then racers would have to join your PG to see the course?

That is the only thing I'd take issue with. Not on the principle - I like it - but because that would be a major security nightmare. So far, a big part of EDs security seems to be based on the fact that no game assets are stored on/loaded from the player's machine. Adding that plan file would open a loophole for uploading god-knows-what to FDs servers. Yes, you could sanitize this at the receiving end. Ask any number of website hosters how well that works out in practice...

exploits_of_a_mom.png
 

Deleted member 121570

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Non persistent markers would be fine. Just note the coordinates for search and it's max 10 mins to rebuild it for an event. Easy.
 
I don't think it's feasible in ED to have any sort of player-created persistent POIs, whether simple markers or more elaborate things. Due to the way the instancing works, and the fact that you'd have to upload all this to Frontier servers, and then back down to each client to be spawned there -- I just see it as a huge change, with lots of gotchas and security issues to work through.

So I doubt anything like that will happen.

But, it might be possible to have some sort of in-game Race Page, or such. Something that can be accessed from the system board or the cockpit, where race info can be posted by the organizers. Just to get some of that info into the game, instead of just on the forums.

Galnet Racing Page. Something like that.
 
I don't think it's feasible in ED to have any sort of player-created persistent POIs, whether simple markers or more elaborate things. Due to the way the instancing works, and the fact that you'd have to upload all this to Frontier servers, and then back down to each client to be spawned there -- I just see it as a huge change, with lots of gotchas and security issues to work through.

So I doubt anything like that will happen.

But, it might be possible to have some sort of in-game Race Page, or such. Something that can be accessed from the system board or the cockpit, where race info can be posted by the organizers. Just to get some of that info into the game, instead of just on the forums.

Galnet Racing Page. Something like that.
I guess it will be interesting to see if the predicted "base building" provides any support for player created/positioned assets being visible to other players outside of a specific instance. Alas that'll have to wait until 2020. In the meantime I do have a hunch that we might see the new player training gates (coming September?) available with a timer as some kind of challenge mode scenario. And if we don't, and if it seems fun, then maybe we'll just have to organise our own leaderboard for it.
 
That is the only thing I'd take issue with. Not on the principle - I like it - but because that would be a major security nightmare. So far, a big part of EDs security seems to be based on the fact that no game assets are stored on/loaded from the player's machine. Adding that plan file would open a loophole for uploading god-knows-what to FDs servers. Yes, you could sanitize this at the receiving end. Ask any number of website hosters how well that works out in practice...

exploits_of_a_mom.png

Uhuh.

I probably shouldn't even say this but... the idea of creating waypoints, itself, opens up a gigantic loophole cos it means an unscrupulous player could use them to mark things like VO 'roids and useful mat' locations etc.
That's what I'd do, at least.

I don't really see a way that it'd be possible to restrict the use of waypoints to only racing. 😕
I mean, at best the "race" would start and I'd be the only participant, my finishing time would suck but I'd have Cr500m of VOs or a heap of G5 raw mat's in my cargo hold.
 
However it's implemented, it needs to support NPC competitors. Otherwise, it may end up struggling for players like CQC.
This hadn't really occurred to me actually. One of the main things with Buckyball Races is simply trying to beat your previous personal best (which doesn't require NPC competitors) but I guess for those looking for real-time adrenalin fuelled race action this could be an issue. Time for SJA to flex her AI coding muscles once more?
 

Deleted member 121570

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This hadn't really occurred to me actually. One of the main things with Buckyball Races is simply trying to beat your previous personal best (which doesn't require NPC competitors) but I guess for those looking for real-time adrenalin fuelled race action this could be an issue. Time for SJA to flex her AI coding muscles once more?

I'm honestly trying not to be negative, but as a racer, I feel that NPC additions would be really, really bad. Real-time, regular-space races right now are community events, and the participants put a lot of practice and effort into learning how to fly appropriately. Tracks are discussed, tips and tricks are traded and it's a great vibe. Winning a race is a real achievement, because you've beaten other people who are exceptionally good pilots and who've practiced a lot to get as good as they are. It's an awesome buzz. A huge part of that comes from the community around it.

Beating an NPC would be, as it is in a HazRez fight between an NPC and a top-tier skilled PvP pilot in a fully engineered build, all but worthless.

Sure, there's things that could help, and believe me - more help would be fantastic. But pre-built racetracks stuffed full of NPCs could easily end up as much of a challenge to the racing community as the how the PvP crowd would descibe low-intensity res sites.

I worry that if we had NPC-stuffed prebuilds, 'racing' could easily be perceived as what you do at these rather than the events that've been developed by, organised by, and flown by, real players.

I can't stress this enough. The existing race community would hugely benefit from tools to support inclusion and greater involvement of real pilots. It also needs more people to get involved and have a go. This isn't a discussion about something 'new'. It's an entirely viable gameplay choice as right now, as things stand, albeit one that is often overlooked and under-resourced within the trade-combat-exploration paradigm, and requires significant investment of time, effort and practice to 'git gud'. It's hard to fly a 900+m/s ship around a tight technical track, and rebuys are absolutely assured, especially with others bumping into you and all the debris from exploding racers! This is how it should be, imo.

I'm honestly passionate about this, because for me personally - racing is pretty much the best thing about the game. The community is awesome. The skills are specific. The organisation and development of courses requires a talented eye and an understanding of how race ships fly under race conditions between real racers. It's not overly serious, there's zero salt, and folks are super-helpful and happy to support you. That's here, now. We just need some tools to improve things a bit.

Recognition of racing as an actual playstyle would be great. Thanks to Alec for opening the thread, and it's been great to see the ideas and contributions so far.

If you want to get involved, the next ERF event is 25th August. Here's our discord...
https://discordapp.com/invite/52vptDU
 
So, my question is ... what do people actually want from Frontier in this regard?

beacons you can place anywhere and which log passing cmdrs, and which you could start and stop and extract logs from.

that's it. and it would be a world of a difference.

i would have jumped into a lot of the wonderful races and challenges you guys made up if it weren't for the awkward screenshot thing. no way, and that's a shame.

yes, beacons could be used to temporarily mark and signal stuff. so ... what? o_O

it's not that difficult to implement. yes it needs persistence, at least temporary, but not really much and there are many possible compromises.

re base building, if it is a thing at all it will of course need at least some level of persistence. but this is frontier, and i would trust them to come up with some really spoiled ideas we can't even imagine atm ... will see!
 
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i would have jumped into a lot of the wonderful races and challenges you guys made up if it weren't for the awkward screenshot thing. no way, and that's a shame.
I don't know if it makes any difference to your potential participation in our Buckyball races, but if you can easily video record your run, then there's no need to mess with screenshots.

And for ERF races, just register and be there on the day.
 
I'm honestly trying not to be negative, but as a racer, I feel that NPC additions would be really, really bad. Real-time, regular-space races right now are community events, and the participants put a lot of practice and effort into learning how to fly appropriately. Tracks are discussed, tips and tricks are traded and it's a great vibe. Winning a race is a real achievement, because you've beaten other people who are exceptionally good pilots and who've practiced a lot to get as good as they are. It's an awesome buzz. A huge part of that comes from the community around it.

Beating an NPC would be, as it is in a HazRez fight between an NPC and a top-tier skilled PvP pilot in a fully engineered build, all but worthless.

Sure, there's things that could help, and believe me - more help would be fantastic. But pre-built racetracks stuffed full of NPCs could easily end up as much of a challenge to the racing community as the how the PvP crowd would descibe low-intensity res sites.

I worry that if we had NPC-stuffed prebuilds, 'racing' could easily be perceived as what you do at these rather than the events that've been developed by, organised by, and flown by, real players.

I can't stress this enough. The existing race community would hugely benefit from tools to support inclusion and greater involvement of real pilots. It also needs more people to get involved and have a go. This isn't a discussion about something 'new'. It's an entirely viable gameplay choice as right now, as things stand, albeit one that is often overlooked and under-resourced within the trade-combat-exploration paradigm, and requires significant investment of time, effort and practice to 'git gud'. It's hard to fly a 900+m/s ship around a tight technical track, and rebuys are absolutely assured, especially with others bumping into you and all the debris from exploding racers! This is how it should be, imo.

I'm honestly passionate about this, because for me personally - racing is pretty much the best thing about the game. The community is awesome. The skills are specific. The organisation and development of courses requires a talented eye and an understanding of how race ships fly under race conditions between real racers. It's not overly serious, there's zero salt, and folks are super-helpful and happy to support you. That's here, now. We just need some tools to improve things a bit.

Recognition of racing as an actual playstyle would be great. Thanks to Alec for opening the thread, and it's been great to see the ideas and contributions so far.

If you want to get involved, the next ERF event is 25th August. Here's our discord...
https://discordapp.com/invite/52vptDU
Excellent post and yes, you're right ... it's the community around racing that turns it into something really special. It sounds like what most people want are tools to help them build (and maybe promote?) racing circuits rather than any kind of general replacement or substitute for community racing. I was curious about the notion of NPC racers but thinking on it more I can't honestly see that working very well (and it's not like FD have managed to put NPC's into CQC either).
 
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i would have jumped into a lot of the wonderful races and challenges you guys made up if it weren't for the awkward screenshot thing. no way, and that's a shame.
I would say the screenshot thing isn't as awkward as people imagine (taking them and uploading them to an imgur album is easy enough and the onus is on the organiser to sift through and check them) ... but ... we have always struggled to get more than a dozen or so people to attend our races so I do take that onboard (and you're not the first person to say it). I guess it seems awkward until you've done it a few times and that's enough to put people off.

So, from our point of view as organisers of community time trial races - I guess going beyond the simple race marker, some kind of time gate which creates evidence of a completed run and the time taken (and evidence that's not TOO easy to simply forge - not that people would but ... well, you know) would clearly remove a hurdle that currently prevents more people from getting involved.

And, as I briefly mentioned above, promotion is another thing. We used to be able to promote our races in Galnet articles. I know player submitted Galnet articles seem like they're a thing of the past now (shame) but perhaps Frontier's stated desire to make Galnet more focused on things that are actually happening in-game might include promotion of upcoming in-game events? Pretty please??
 
I don't know if it makes any difference to your potential participation in our Buckyball races, but if you can easily video record your run, then there's no need to mess with screenshots.

Recording isn't much of an issue for me - but uploading is. I'm on cable, so I get fantastic download speeds (or could get, if I would pay for it, so I make do with "very nice"). But uploading a video may run as slow as one hour upload time per minute of video.
I know, I haven't participated recently - both my pilots are too far out, which might be used as a point for CQC style racing (which I'm still opposed to).
 
I'm honestly trying not to be negative, but as a racer, I feel that NPC additions would be really, really bad. Real-time, regular-space races right now are community events, and the participants put a lot of practice and effort into learning how to fly appropriately. Tracks are discussed, tips and tricks are traded and it's a great vibe. Winning a race is a real achievement, because you've beaten other people who are exceptionally good pilots and who've practiced a lot to get as good as they are. It's an awesome buzz. A huge part of that comes from the community around it.

Beating an NPC would be, as it is in a HazRez fight between an NPC and a top-tier skilled PvP pilot in a fully engineered build, all but worthless.

Sure, there's things that could help, and believe me - more help would be fantastic. But pre-built racetracks stuffed full of NPCs could easily end up as much of a challenge to the racing community as the how the PvP crowd would descibe low-intensity res sites.

I worry that if we had NPC-stuffed prebuilds, 'racing' could easily be perceived as what you do at these rather than the events that've been developed by, organised by, and flown by, real players.

I understand your position, but there are a lot of us -- maybe a majority of us, it's hard to say -- who play the game casually, and don't really have any desire for spending time honing mad-skills, joining Discords, arranging our day around being online at a certain time, or even particularly having to talk to other players.

I pick up the game at not-necessarily-predictable, unplanned times, when I get a quiet hour or two, to tool around in the game on my own terms. I have plenty of friends and social/planning obligations in real life, playing games is a rest from that.

You won't be losing people like us, because we'd never have joined you guys. I'd really like to try racing against NPCs and maybe players, but only if it's something I can dip into and out of whenever it suits me, and assuming I can be matched with opponents of a broadly similar skill level.

I totally understand how beating NPCs would seem low-reward and meaningless to someone heavily invested in high-end racing, with a high sunk cost in terms of training for and preparing events. But, to RES patrolling scrubs like me, it would be a blast, I assure you.

There will always be an elite core of players (for want of a better word) who invest lots into the game, have a high social engagement in related communities, and hone their skills to get better and better. Like professional golfers or something. But what about the greater number of people for whom golf is just a small part of their lives?

Let us have our Pitch N Putt courses, it won't interfere with the PGA Championship.
 
I understand your position, but there are a lot of us -- maybe a majority of us, it's hard to say -- who play the game casually, and don't really have any desire for spending time honing mad-skills, joining Discords, arranging our day around being online at a certain time, or even particularly having to talk to other players.

I pick up the game at not-necessarily-predictable, unplanned times, when I get a quiet hour or two, to tool around in the game on my own terms. I have plenty of friends and social/planning obligations in real life, playing games is a rest from that.

You won't be losing people like us, because we'd never have joined you guys. I'd really like to try racing against NPCs and maybe players, but only if it's something I can dip into and out of whenever it suits me, and assuming I can be matched with opponents of a broadly similar skill level.

I totally understand how beating NPCs would seem low-reward and meaningless to someone heavily invested in high-end racing, with a high sunk cost in terms of training for and preparing events. But, to RES patrolling scrubs like me, it would be a blast, I assure you.

There will always be an elite core of players (for want of a better word) who invest lots into the game, have a high social engagement in related communities, and hone their skills to get better and better. Like professional golfers or something. But what about the greater number of people for whom golf is just a small part of their lives?

Let us have our Pitch N Putt courses, it won't interfere with the PGA Championship.
@CMDR Yates, I wonder if you're thinking our races are a little more difficult to compete in than they actually are.

If you take a quick look at the final standings of my recent Seven Sisters Speedway you'll see that there's about a twenty minute spread between first and last place in both the Unlimited and Regulation Hauler classes, and for the hauler class everything needed to enter was available at the shipyard and outfitting at the start-line station. The kamikaze cup was a bit of fun, so ignore that leaderboard.

So if you'd just turned up and had a go without honing your skills or building a finely tuned racing ship you'd have done fine. I'm very busy myself, which is why I've never been able to commit to joining in a live event like the ERF races. The Buckyball races though normally run for just over 1 week (including two weekends) and you can join in whenever it's most convenient to you.

You're generally trying to beat your own best time more than anything else in our races, which are almost all rally-checkpoint type time trials. Other than your own previous times, you've got others close on the leaderboard (of various skill levels) and the "expected time" of the race to challenge. The expected time for the Seven Sisters would have been 30 minutes for Unlimited and 40 minutes for Regulation Hauler, as you can see for both classes, some made it and some didn't. Then in unlimited class, some CMDRs always turn up in a favourite ship, regardless of whether it's the best thing to race. And we get a good mix of pro and casual racers.
 
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Let me go back to the beacons for a few minutes. While I personally have no problem (any more) with people farming/exploiting certain game mechanics for credits (after all, you can only fly one Corvette at a time - and I have never seen the appeal of these big ships, either), I can see that this opinion isn't universally shared.

Ok, how about this. Three types of beacons:
Size S:
  • related to one individual CMDR
  • only one beacon/CMDR available at any time
  • linked to a single shot size 2 controller (I want a Sidey to be able to deploy it)
  • limited lifetime (fuel reserve) for one hour, the beacon expires after either its fuel is used up (1 hour) or when the controller is removed/replaced/reloaded at a station
  • the beacon is handled like a wing member, i.e. may be visible to other wing members, and will keep the instance it is in open. If you drop into the beacon, you also drop into the instance where you placed it -> effectively prevents respawning of game resources, so if you blow up the motherlode next to the beacon, it stays blown up
  • a wing may then consist of four CMDRS (as of now) plus one beacon
Size M:
  • related to a squad leader
  • limited amount available, maybe 10...20 per squad (could make up a complicated formula based on squad size, but what the heck...)
  • squad members need permission from the squad leader to place beacons (may be linked to squad rank in addition or instead)
  • linked to a single shot size 4 controller (proportionally larger controllers with more ammo)
  • limited lifetime (fuel) for one week...10 days
  • may be manually disabled before the lifetime expires
  • behaves as a squad member, i.e. also keeps the instance open to prevent farming improve continuity
Size L:
  • persistent background object, to be placed by FD
  • similar to today's tourist beacons (with added functionality, depending on type)
  • Size S and Size M beacons may be converted to Size L beacons at the discretion of FD, possibly involving a proof of community support and/or at the whim of a developer
  • since the conversion cycle may be longer than the lifetime of the player beacons, a player beacon may be (either automatically or manually) placed in a "dormant" state - i.e. removed from the active game, but kept as a coordinate set and a short description in a database somewhere
 
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