Engineers What does RNG stand for?

[Viking84]

I didn't label them all as whingers, the implication was intended that it's what people call PG when they want to whinge. The RNGineers trope is such an example - it's not totally random, but the implication that it is diminishes it. Similarly with Signal Source contents - they obey strict patterns, but are regularly dismissed as random. It colours and perverts the debate, especially for those who aren't familiar enough with elite to know it's really PG.

I hope you can see that it was fairly easy to read as complaint against any who dare criticize the RNG aspects of the engineers. That being said I can understand your frustration - there are a great many aspects of Elite that are procedurally generated, and deserve praise for being well implemented.

However, loot gathering and mod results do not fall into that category. Loot gathering gives you the possibility to narrow down the range of options for the RNG to choose from by following the rules of the procedural generation, but the end result is still random, often from a set of 10 or more possibilites. Two people can follow the exact same track on a planet and get completely different materials within the set available on the planet. That is RNG at work, not procedural generation.

Same for the engineers results, there are boundaries that the RNG must stay within, but the results are still random within the set it can choose from. There is nothing procedural about this.

So if someone calls the planets they find random, I agree, they are wrong. If they call the Engineers process and results random they are entirely right.

 

[Bzek]

Except that is not true. You don't always get an upgrade. Some rolls are dramatic downgrades from what you currently have. Sure, maybe if you have nothing installed you have a marginal upgrade at worst but that is not really saying much.

Maybe there are some ratios that affect the generation, as an example the intervals for value 1 are between -100 and -50 if you got +50 to +100 in value 2 to offset and balance things a bit. But that is still random. That is not procedural at all.

Random with constraints, even if variable constraints, is still random.

 

[Viking84]

I'm rather curious if many of those really grumpy at getting loads of bad rolls are actually getting just what's intended - never perfect rolls - but hearing constantly it's random they feel it's the game to blame and they have to keep trying

I think most people can see that the results are controlled to an extent, if you get an extremely good stat on one side you will normally get a bad one on the other. Again though this just narrows down the sets from which the RNG can choose its results, it doesn't make it remotely procedural. "Controlled Randomness" is the term Sandro used, which is a fitting description.

Edit: And I can't stand this controlled randomness. It adds sod all to the game apart from frustration and time-sinks.

 

[Infidel Deity]

Excuse me for being dumb but what does RNG stand for?

I could come up with something; but that would get me kicked out for good.

 

[FrodoHobbits]

Rather Not Grind

 

[frostypaw]

I think most people can see that the results are controlled to an extent, if you get an extremely good stat on one side you will normally get a bad one on the other. Again though this just narrows down the sets from which the RNG can choose its results, it doesn't make it remotely procedural. "Controlled Randomness" is the term Sandro used, which is a fitting description.

I wouldn't be objecting tbh if people talked about it like that - but the usual line is "total RNG crap", which isn't fair as they're constrained by procedural or proportional limits

Bzek - when you say downgrades I assume you mean from the roll you already had at that level? is that an unfair thing as long as each level is an upgrade? anyhow i fear that might steer us off topic, the overlaps between levels aren't great.

 

[Viking84]

I wouldn't be objecting tbh if people talked about it like that - but the usual line is "total RNG crap", which isn't fair as they're constrained by procedural or proportional limits.

As much as the term "total RNG crap" isn't very nuanced, then from the players perspective that is exactly what it is. RNG used in this manner means that there are results that the player is entirely unable to control. Most games use RNG to a certain extent to create what looks like natural variation, however in this case it becomes anything but natural because the variation is so enormous that it becomes impossible to ignore. As an example the level 5 FSD mod can range from 15 to over 50% range increase. That is an internal variation of over 300% from best to worst roll, and deserves to be referred to as "total RNG crap" in my opinion, no matter what constraints have been put on the outcome.

Same goes for RNG looting, which even if you are doing the exact right thing (right planet, right ship, right asteroid, whatever is required) you are hoping for a lucky drop from a set of 10 or more possible materials. Once you get to the higher level mods your material will have an exceedingly rare chance of dropping, based on nothing more than "total RNG crap".

It really is a completely indefensible system as all it does is introduce a huge element of luck into what was previously a fairly skill based game.

Edit: Bother, I was trying to stay out of these discussions... sadly I ended up rage-quitting after trying to find some helpless T-9's to gun down and realising that it was pointlessly bad game play and I wasn't enjoying it!

 

[frostypaw]

As an example the level 5 FSD mod can range from 15 to over 50% range increase. That is an internal variation of over 300% from best to worst roll, and deserves to be referred to as "total RNG crap" in my opinion, no matter what constraints have been put on the outcome.

Is it? INARA says 15-44% which isn't that different from your figure I admit but if that 15% comes with all the other stats at their best values then that might be a cracking mod. Just considering one value isn't fair on the system or the way it affects the module

 

[Viking84]

Is it? INARA says 15-44% which isn't that different from your figure I admit but if that 15% comes with all the other stats at their best values then that might be a cracking mod. Just considering one value isn't fair on the system or the way it affects the module

Fair point, but I doubt anyone who does this upgrade is hoping for a nicely balanced result. They want the most range possible, and will deal with whatever downsides they are dealed. That doesn't change the fact that a single stat can vary between 15 and 44% on base stats, and secondary effects can boost that above 50% as seen in Korneliuses video on the subject. I don't understand what possible good can come out of introducing RNG with such a huge variance into a game. Especially when that RNG comes after the RNG your are subjected to when gathering materials in the first place. That is what gets most of the complainers so riled up on this subject.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Is it? INARA says 15-44% which isn't that different from your figure I admit but if that 15% comes with all the other stats at their best values then that might be a cracking mod. Just considering one value isn't fair on the system or the way it affects the module

From what I can gather, that is 15-44% of the base value. But anything over 25% increase is nice in my eyes. The RNG stats do need to be tweeked a little, with less overlap.

Current
Grade 1 is 0% - 4% Ave: 2%
Grade 2 is 3% - 14% Ave: 8%
Grade 3 is 8% - 25% Ave: 17%
Grade 4 is 11% - 35% Ave: 23%
Grade 5 is 15% - 44% Ave: 30%

What I think they should be like or something close:
Grade 1 is 1% - 6% Ave: 2-3%
Grade 2 is 4% - 14% Ave: 9%
Grade 3 is 10% - 25% Ave: 17%
Grade 4 is 17% - 35% Ave: 28%
Grade 5 is 25% - 45% Ave: 35%

Something like that. Less overlap, and more chance of getting an imporvement over the previous grade.
Saying that you can still get a grade 4 with a superb seconday effect and not need a grade 5.

I think this would make it a more fair spread.

 

[frostypaw]

Fair point, but I doubt anyone who does this upgrade is hoping for a nicely balanced result. They want the most range possible, and will deal with whatever downsides they are dealed. That doesn't change the fact that a single stat can vary between 15 and 44% on base stats, and secondary effects can boost that above 50% as seen in Korneliuses video on the subject. I don't understand what possible good can come out of introducing RNG with such a huge variance into a game. Especially when that RNG comes after the RNG your are subjected to when gathering materials in the first place. That is what gets most of the complainers so riled up on this subject.

That's their choice, and a grindstone they choose for themselves. I took two rolls and was 'lucky' with my second one but paid for it in other respects - I would have been far happier with a little less range and the thing working better, in other words a more average roll.

If everyone's going to keep rolling and complaining until they get the optimal result then... well.... idk if Kornelius has done anyone any favours.

Anyway we're now coming back around to my exact issue - it only gets referred to as RNG on RNG on RNG.

 

[Viking84]

From what I can gather, that is 15-44% of the base value. But anything over 25% increase is nice in my eyes.

Which is cool for you But what does the 300% RNG based variance actually bring to this game? Would it not have been better if you could have said "I am happy with a 25% increase because then my heat and power consumption figures are nicer" instead of just being at the mercy of whatever you get?

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Anyway we're now coming back around to my exact issue - it only gets referred to as RNG on RNG on RNG.

But that is exactly what it is, as we have discussed and (I thought) concluded earlier? Not all of Elite is RNG of course, or else it would just be a random mess, but this newly introduced element relies 100% on RNG at every single stage. You can lessen the chance of a bad roll by following certain rules, but you are still at the mercy of RNG at all steps:

- RNG defines what loot you get
- RNG defines your primary stats
- RNG defines your secondary stats
- RNG defines if you get a special effect

The fact that you can narrow down the first one from 100 materials to 10, doesn't change this into anything other than layers upon layers of RNG. We can debate whether this is a good or a bad thing, and whether or not it should be tuned down, left as it is, or removed entirely, but denying that it is there is not possible.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Which is cool for you But what does the 300% RNG based variance actually bring to this game? Would it not have been better if you could have said "I am happy with a 25% increase because then my heat and power consumption figures are nicer" instead of just being at the mercy of whatever you get?

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But that is exactly what it is, as we have discussed and (I thought) concluded earlier? Not all of Elite is RNG of course, or else it would just be a random mess, but this newly introduced element relies 100% on RNG at every single stage. You can lessen the chance of a bad roll by following certain rules, but you are still at the mercy of RNG at all steps:

- RNG defines what loot you get
- RNG defines your primary stats
- RNG defines your secondary stats
- RNG defines if you get a special effect

The fact that you can narrow down the first one from 100 materials to 10, doesn't change this into anything other than layers upon layers of RNG. We can debate whether this is a good or a bad thing, and whether or not it should be tuned down, left as it is, or removed entirely, but denying that it is there is not possible.

I never said it was cool. I have been saying all along that the variables need to be tweeked a bit. I have edited my post above as to what I think the variables should be like.

I also think the DSS should have a large roll in seeing what planets have what on them regarding materials as well. I think you add those two together and there will be a lot less complaints.

But if it doesn't change then it's not the end of the world.

 

[Bzek]

- RNG on the right loot source spawning (metallic meteorite, T9, etc)
- RNG defines what loot you get
- RNG defines your primary stats
- RNG defines your secondary stats
- RNG defines if you get a special effect

Adding another layer of RNG that is part of the model to your list.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

This post contains strong sarcasm and passive aggressiveness. Readers discretion is advised.

Nah, if you really want to be passive aggressive use: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=RNG

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If everyone's going to keep rolling and complaining until they get the optimal result then... well.... idk if Kornelius has done anyone any favours.

That's right! You'll get a mediocre result from all your hard work and you'll like it! The beatings will continue until morale improves! [wacky]

 

[frostypaw]

But that is exactly what it is, as we have discussed and (I thought) concluded earlier? Not all of Elite is RNG of course, or else it would just be a random mess, but this newly introduced element relies 100% on RNG at every single stage. You can lessen the chance of a bad roll by following certain rules, but you are still at the mercy of RNG at all steps:

- RNG defines what loot you get
- RNG defines your primary stats
- RNG defines your secondary stats
- RNG defines if you get a special effect

The fact that you can narrow down the first one from 100 materials to 10, doesn't change this into anything other than layers upon layers of RNG. We can debate whether this is a good or a bad thing, and whether or not it should be tuned down, left as it is, or removed entirely, but denying that it is there is not possible.

No, you concluded.
There are materials spread in a method that is determined by PG across a PG galaxy, with PG economy and PG npc life with PG distributed loot. Depending on many/all of these factors selects a small range of loot/mats from which there is then something relatively random but constrained by ratios and patterns.
Then you go to your engineer and you get a roll where, if it's working as stated by Sandro, the values depend on each other such that a new tier should always be an upgrade. (this is arguably not working)
The SFX is random.

You - as is entirely the point of my post - steamroller the lot and dismiss it all as RNG. Then drama and arguments

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That's right! You'll get a mediocre result from all your hard work and you'll like it! The beatings will continue until morale improves! [wacky]

Is first place the only place? Do/would you tell your kids it's pointless and they suck unless they get the best results they could hope for?

 

[andrak]

12 months from now it stands for the death of Elite Dangerous.

 

[ORJI]

Rabid Npc Ganking

 

[Viking84]

No, you concluded.

It seems so

There are materials spread in a method that is determined by PG across a PG galaxy, with PG economy and PG npc life with PG distributed loot.

I'm with you on this part, but then it all comes undone in the next bit:

Depending on many/all of these factors selects a small range of loot/mats from which there is then something relatively random but constrained by ratios and patterns.

This is a description of RNG with boundaries. In other words despite all the PG in the rest of the universe, the final act that actually rewards the player is defined 100% by RNG within the set available. And these sets can in some cases be in the double digits, with varying chances for each material. This is pure RNG, and it is in the only place that is relevant to the player.

Then you go to your engineer and you get a roll where, if it's working as stated by Sandro, the values depend on each other such that a new tier should always be an upgrade. (this is arguably not working)
The SFX is random.

Again, pure RNG, within constraints determined by the upgrade level and the seemingly quite strict relationship between the stats. For the player the result is that their upgrade can vary, as described, by up to 300% in one direction or another. It is not possible to argue that this is not RNG. It is possible to debate whether there is too much RNG or just the right amount, but that it is there is a fact.

You - as is entirely the point of my post - steamroller the lot and dismiss it all as RNG. Then drama and arguments

I do indeed, and this is because the Engineers upgrade process is (apart from some of the unlock requirements) dependent on varying, but always high, levels of RNG variation for every single step of the process. Now is the RNG a problem in itself? I think it is a bit lazy, but small levels of RNG can do an OK job of replicating natural variation. However the levels of RNG we are seeing (1/100 chances for rare materials being dropped, 300% variations in basic stats, 4 or 5 different random effects that may or may not be added to a component) are absolutely absurd in a game like Elite where choices are meant to matter. It takes away any sense of achievement and leaves behind pure luck in its place.

Note, I am not saying that all of the things we see in Elite are random, far from it. But every single aspect of the Engineers process that was introduced in 2.1 is random at its core, and the player has very few methods of reducing this randomness down to anything bearable.

 

[Viking84]

Take a look at this thread to get an idea of what they spawn rates are for the rarer materials.

We are talking 45 drops from 3400 rocks. A 1.3% spawn rate, all thanks to weighted RNG. Even if you just take the Polonium spawned from Metallic Meteorites you are still only at a 5% drop rate. With nothing the player can do to improve his chances except popping more rocks until he is lucky. Sure you could go to the wrong planet and be even less likely to find something, but you are still very dependent on luck if you find the right place.