What if Shield Boosters Weren't Protected by the Shield?

[CMDR Corlas]

Hardness means nothing.
Big ships widouth big shields mean nothing and are useless.

Have you tried fighting much without shields, or do you normally run when they drop?

I'm not trying to accuse you or needle you, I'm asking if you're speaking from experience or not. Because I do. And have. And did in the beta that I'm referring to here.

It made a huge difference.

If there was a PvP problem due to some weapon specials, the issue was with those specials. The hull hardness increase was amazing.

in a 715mj Anaconda and a 800mj Corvette.

The Corvette was released in 1.5...

 

[jonesskill]

NPCs still don't have engineered weapons now so that's not very relevant.

And there we go, again and again and again.

Post1:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/346913-Are-NPC-s-engineered

Post2:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/313033-Do-NPCs-use-engineered-modules

Patch notes:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/267701

And to put the cherry on the top:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Vanilla-Elite-Dangerous-Balance-Issues-Result

Yes NPCs can have engineered weapons, I had to eat humble pie over this as I raised a ticket and support replied:


Deadly and Elite NPCs can have modified equipment outside of combat zones, and modifications on these ships are not limited to passive modules.

Elite NPCs will have more modified equipment then Deadly.

Being Deadly yourself you will be interdicted by Deadly and Elite NPCs often so have a high chance of facing off against engineered NPCs.

Best regards,

CMDR Ares
Customer Support Wing

and then:

I believe they were disabled in response to the bug that originally occurred with them, there was not an intention to keep them permanently disabled, but this may not have been made very clear so we need to take a look at this.

CMDR Ares
Customer Support Wing

 

[jonesskill]

Have you tried fighting much without shields, or do you normally run when they drop?

I'm not trying to accuse you or needle you, I'm asking if you're speaking from experience or not. Because I do. And have. And did in the beta that I'm referring to here.

It made a huge difference.

If there was a PvP problem due to some weapon specials, the issue was with those specials. The hull hardness increase was amazing.



The Corvette was released in 1.5...

IN Pve Some HRP and MRP's along with a reactive armor really helps you to stay alive since NPC's don't target your modules.
But in PVP if your shield drops you have a few seconds to high wake you will be dead by PP sniping.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

And there we go, again and again and again.

It's still not that relevant, because engineered NPC's are not a problem in a Corvette with "only" 800mj shields.

 

[Frenotx]

It's still not that relevant, because engineered NPC's are not a problem in a Corvette with "only" 800mj shields.

Also in my many many hours of PvE combat, I have not seen NPCs with special effects on their weapons.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

IN Pve Some HRP and MRP's along with a reactive armor really helps you to stay alive since NPC's don't target your modules.
But in PVP if your shield drops you have a few seconds to high wake you will be dead by PP sniping.

You ignored my question though. Do you know this from experience, or from forum-theorycrafting and second or third-hand stories?

I am aware that NPC's don't target modules, and I am aware of the differences that causes in PvP vs PvE shieldless fights.

Even PvP though, there's a difference between someone running an overcharged powerplant so they can run megashields and someone running stock - or armored or B-grade - backed up by a couple of MRP's.

If the difference is not as big as it should be, that's an issue that should be addressed with either those weapons or those defenses, because those things are clearly in-game specifically to counter such sniping.

There are plenty of videos out there of dedicated hull tanks kicking butt in PvP, so I think you're running more on theorycrafting or forum groupthink than you are experience. I don't want to make those assumptions about you though, which is why I asked.

Also in my many many hours of PvE combat, I have not seen NPCs with special effects on their weapons.

Yeah, they might have engineered weapons (if they do, it's not really noticeable), but I've never been hit with special that was discernible outside of the normal warnings you get when you get smacked with plasma.

 

[jonesskill]

You ignored my question though. Do you know this from experience, or from forum-theorycrafting and second or third-hand stories?

I am aware that NPC's don't target modules, and I am aware of the differences that causes in PvP vs PvE shieldless fights.

Even PvP though, there's a difference between someone running an overcharged powerplant so they can run megashields and someone running stock - or armored or B-grade - backed up by a couple of MRP's.

If the difference is not as big as it should be, that's an issue that should be addressed with either those weapons or those defenses, because those things are clearly in-game specifically to counter such sniping.

IN 2.3 - Testing hull hardness changes in my corvette.
B rated powerplant, all HRP (Grade 5 enginnerd thanks to fish) all the another stuffs to make a hull-tank vette ( i remember to put MRP in the size 4 slots)

First FDL: One salvo of rails and PP disabled, second salvo PP destroyed.
tHE GUY send me a mensage: LOL dude, put shields.

Then i've tried again, this time agains a cutter with shields (shields That sucks in that beta) - I 've won but with all modules failing.
Coming back to repairs, the same FDL interdicts me.
1 salvo and ship disabled again, then he left and let me go repair.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

IN 2.3 - Testing hull hardness changes in my corvette.
B rated powerplant, all HRP (Grade 5 enginnerd thanks to fish) all the another stuffs to make a hull-tank vette ( i remember to put MRP in the size 4 slots)

First FDL: One salvo of rails and PP disabled, second salvo PP destroyed.
tHE GUY send me a mensage: LOL dude, put shields.

Then i've tried again, this time agains a cutter with shields (shields That sucks in that beta) - I 've won but with all modules failing.
Coming back to repairs, the same FDL interdicts me.
1 salvo and ship disabled again, then he left and let me go repair.

Cool, thanks.

I don't follow the logic that says that's an argument in favor of why shields need to remain absurdly high for big ships though - I mean, small and medium ships have the same PP problem, why should only huge ships get to defend against it?

It's seems clearly to be an argument for why those weapons are too powerful in that role, or the defenses are not enough (or both). If you specced out specifically to defend against that, that should mean something. That's where the issue is, shields don't even come into the picture, when we're talking about what changes need to theoretically be made.

 

[Frenotx]

Cool, thanks.

I don't follow the logic that says that's an argument in favor of why shields need to remain absurdly high for big ships though - I mean, small and medium ships have the same PP problem, why should only huge ships get to defend against it?

It's seems clearly to be an argument for why those weapons are too powerful in that role, or the defenses are not enough (or both). If you specced out specifically to defend against that, that should mean something. That's where the issue is, shields don't even come into the picture, when we're talking about what changes need to theoretically be made.

A flawed mechanic covering up a flawed mechanic. Keeping shields as-is because of another thing that needs balancing is foolish. Just fix both problems, and make the game better.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

A flawed mechanic covering up a flawed mechanic. Keeping shields as-is because of another thing that needs balancing is foolish. Just fix both problems, and make the game better.

Yes. So much.

 

[Frenotx]

Also, most of these arguments have been made under the pretext that this change would make shields useless on big ships- it wouldn't. The shield booster would be a small target to hit, and the shield would still be up (so no penetrating through the ship with rails to hit it). Being smart about which utility mounts you put your boosters in, and angling / rolling your ship as necessary will make it difficult for anyone to hit your boosters, even at long range with rails.

ALSO, if a booster gets destroyed, fix it with your AFMU while your opponent is trying to destroy the next booster. You'll have lost the capacity of it, but you'll get the resistances back. That, and if you online it before the next booster gets destroyed, you'll prevent the loss of the second booster's capacity. Interesting counter play options! That involve actual game play and skill instead of special effects! Layered defenses for big ships that a single ship would still struggle to with! Yay!

 

[CMDR Corlas]

ALSO, if a booster gets destroyed, fix it with your AFMU while your opponent is trying to destroy the next booster. You'll have lost the capacity of it, but you'll get the resistances back. That, and if you online it before the next booster gets destroyed, you'll prevent the loss of the second booster's capacity. Interesting counter play options! That involve actual game play and skill instead of special effects! Layered defenses for big ships that a single ship would still struggle to with! Yay!

You could expand on that concept and basically create a "Ship's Engineer" role for multicrew.

 

[fruitbat]

Anything that reduces the absurd engineered strength of shields, I'm in favour of.

Don't really care by which method...

 

[Esymphony]

So what I'm getting here is the big ships are stacking because they can't avoid mod sniping as well as the small and and medium ships, which is a valid thing to do since losing your PP is a death sentence. So I'm thinking the bigger ships need a resistance buff to the essential modules or the weapons used for sniping need a nerf, possibly both.
Personally, I think bigger ships shouldn't be threatened by one or two Vultures because the cost difference. I only put 20mill and some light engineering into into mine and I was a legitimate threat to ships that someone spent 150-200million minimum on because I was able to attack weak points and shake off the damage that did hit me. Hits from a conda, vette or clipper should be devastating to a smaller ship, not something you shake off after a few seconds to continue hitting them in the gut with a bat you wrapped in barbed wire.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Hits from a conda, vette or clipper should be devastating to a smaller ship, not something you shake off after a few seconds to continue hitting them in the gut with a bat you wrapped in barbed wire.

Hits from those ships are devastating to small ships. The Vulture is just weird though, because it's effectively a medium/big ship wrapped in a small ship's body. When it was introduced, it had the price tag to match. Anti-big is basically the Vulture's specialty.

 

[Esymphony]

Hits from those ships are devastating to small ships. The Vulture is just weird though, because it's effectively a medium/big ship wrapped in a small ship's body. When it was introduced, it had the price tag to match. Anti-big is basically the Vulture's specialty.

The price reduction of the Vulture was a big mistake, but not quite as big a mistake as making engineers as effective as they are. I've taken hits from those ships in the engineered cobra3 I flew before I realized the Vulture was busted against them and didn't start thinking about fleeing, I thought I just needed to stop being greedy, so it clearly isn't enough. Those ships should be something you plan your attack on and not think "Neat, free credits" before engaging.
Just to be clear on what I'm saying: a player with 80 hours shouldn't be going toe-to-toe with the top of the line ships and thinking of hits landed by the other ship as them getting carried away, they should be thinking about it as skill on on the other player's part, but we all know those ships can't really turn to save their lives.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

The price reduction of the Vulture was a big mistake, but not quite as big a mistake as making engineers as effective as they are. I've taken hits from those ships in the engineered cobra3 I flew before I realized the Vulture was busted against them and didn't start thinking about fleeing, I thought I just needed to stop being greedy, so it clearly isn't enough. Those ships should be something you plan your attack on and not think "Neat, free credits" before engaging.

Totally agree.

 

[Maka Gucci]

Also, most of these arguments have been made under the pretext that this change would make shields useless on big ships- it wouldn't. The shield booster would be a small target to hit, and the shield would still be up (so no penetrating through the ship with rails to hit it). Being smart about which utility mounts you put your boosters in, and angling / rolling your ship as necessary will make it difficult for anyone to hit your boosters, even at long range with rails.

ALSO, if a booster gets destroyed, fix it with your AFMU while your opponent is trying to destroy the next booster. You'll have lost the capacity of it, but you'll get the resistances back. That, and if you online it before the next booster gets destroyed, you'll prevent the loss of the second booster's capacity. Interesting counter play options! That involve actual game play and skill instead of special effects! Layered defenses for big ships that a single ship would still struggle to with! Yay!

I think it's a good idea

 

[Frenotx]

Went ahead and posted the refined idea to the suggestions thread, here. Added some details to handle some of the legitimate criticism raised in this thread. Quoted below, for simplicity:

Proposal:

• Make it possible to target, attack, and damage shield boosters while the shield is still up.

Why this is good:

• Adds a possible way to deal with mega shields, and gives an interesting role to light ships in mixed-ship-size wings.
• Remains relevant regardless of engineering- even if neither ship is engineered, the mechanic still matters / functions
• Makes the module sub-targeting mechanic / fine aim relevant even in shields-up combat
• Is a gameplay counter, instead of just a special effect that "just happens"
• Has interesting counter-play, that also doesn't require engineering
  • The defender can position their ship to keep their boosters protected
  • The defender can repair broken boosters with an AFMU
  • If the defender sucessfullly repairs and onlines the first broken booster before the second is destroyed, they can effectively prevent the loss of capacity from the second. Leads to interesting booster juggling, and trying to repair as much as possible while still getting the booster online before the next goes down
• Makes AFMUs relevant, even for shield tanks
• Makes PDTs and ECM more relevant, since well-placed missiles can still be dangerous even if the shield is up
• Generally makes shields-up fighting more in-line with the complexity of shields-down fighting

Details:

• The "lore" explanation would be that the booster extends beyond the shield a bit, and acts almost like an umbrella. (See figure A)
• The hitbox for the booster (when the shield is up) should be a small disk on the shield itself, above where the booster is. (See figure B)
  • When checking if the booster was hit with a direct-fire weapon, check the angle of the attack vs. the normal of the shield. If it's more than X (say, 45?) degrees off, just hit the shield instead of the booster. (see "Valid attack angles" in figure B)
    • This makes it so you have to be attacking from roughly perpendicular to the booster, so you can't hit top/bottom/side boosters from nose / tail on, etc.
  • When checking if the booster was hit with a splash weapon, treat the "distance" as twice what it actually is. This should be easy: when a explosive weapon hits a shield, just halve its splash radius
    • This is to allow missiles to still be effective at hitting boosters, but require a close-to-direct hit. Allows the defender to protect their boosters with good positioning, and evokes a fun "stay on target" sort of situation for the attacker
• Since the shield is still up, don't allow effects like superpenetrator or high yield shell to function here. I.E. no hitting modules nearby the booster with high yield shell, and no hitting boosters through the ship+shield using superpenetrator.

https://i.imgur.com/sxHbas1.png