Modes What is Sandro playing at?

[Agony_Aunt]

LOL this stuff is hilarious.

I've been involved heavily with PP since I started Elite - well beyond the level of most of the folks going nuts over the proposed changes. I've suggested improvements, along with 99% of the active PP community. Open only was one of them. I'm glad to see FDev consider it.

I made many suggestions for the improvement of PP to my liking as well. PP missions were one of them. Glad FD listened to me.

Or.... maybe they didn't listen to me or you.

That's not how I envisage it'll be at all. The mere fact that a haulage run could be intercepted makes the trip more tense - the grindy feeling comes from uneventful trips and watching 'invisible' players move the numbers. Getting 600t of material to a given station would now have a deeper sense of worth and meaning, as opposed to 600t merely being 9% (or whatever) in the grind up to 100% fortification and then move to the next target. There will be real potential threats to prevent you completing a run; be that by destruction or forcing you to route. There is then all the cooperative gameplay elements to consider, from both attacker and defender.
It will be far, far from a grind as we know them now.

We will have to see how it goes then won't we, and just how much sense of accomplishment people really get from it

 

[Mouse]

Aye, it was really good.
Then, people went 'most efficient mode', 'path of least resistance' , 'hamster wheel grind' mentality and farted their own trail all over PP.

I think that this is rather funny... mainly because IF true it shows people were not interested in PVP. If the PVPers are abandoning PVP don't blame the modes, PP, or anything else. There was no " more efficient mode" , or a "path of least resistance" and any "hamster wheel grind" was in open as it was elsewhere. As for "farting their own trail" that also speaks volumes. People were given the choices of doing things in any mode, if some harassed others beyond consensual PVP to the point they no longer wanted to PVP to do things, or those who are PVP's stanchest proponents abandoned PVP to do their power play... it isn't a faulty game design or the fault of anyone else.

 

[Goose4291]

I think that this is rather funny... mainly because IF true it shows people were not interested in PVP. If the PVPers are abandoning PVP don't blame the modes, PP, or anything else. There was no " more efficient mode" , or a "path of least resistance" and any "hamster wheel grind" was in open as it was elsewhere. As for "farting their own trail" that also speaks volumes. People were given the choices of doing things in any mode, if some harassed others beyond consensual PVP to the point they no longer wanted to PVP to do things, or those who are PVP's stanchest proponents abandoned PVP to do their power play... it isn't a faulty game design or the fault of anyone else.

Not really Mouse. I'd explain this to you again, but I suspect you wont listen, so won't waste my virtual breath.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Admission: Didn’t read all 13 pages.

To me this is a partial admission that they really don’t know where to go or what to do and that the game is not going to get unlimited Dev time and resources thrown at it. The ED market is tapped. The bulk of sales have already occurred.

If they chuck stuff into Open then they really don’t have to fix it or add solid core content. Let (force) the players to make their own content in Open with minimal input and work from FDev. Solid content for a individual player is a lot of work.
Put it on auto-pilot while FDev works on the next cash cow.
That’s a tinfoil hat idea of mine and I hope I am wrong.

 

[Warm Considering]

Admission: Didn’t read all 13 pages.

To me this is a partial admission that they really don’t know where to go or what to do and that the game is not going to get unlimited Dev time and resources thrown at it. The ED market is tapped. The bulk of sales have already occurred.

If they chuck stuff into Open then they really don’t have to fix it or add solid core content. Let (force) the players to make their own content in Open with minimal input and work from FDev. Solid content for a individual player is a lot of work.
Put it on auto-pilot while FDev works on the next cash cow.
That’s a tinfoil hat idea of mine and I hope I am wrong.

I hope you are too.

 

[Roybe]

How is Open only going to change this? Any 'bottlenecking' is going to be marginal. All this does is make people feel better..changes their perception, if you will, that they can fight the salmon running up stream.

The PP people think like this:


When the numbers against them are like this:


No matter how many players are stopped and killed in PP, their number is minor relative to the PVP player...or the PP player that wants to stop 5c. It just changes the game in minor ways. And fails to repair the real problems with the game. How do you make a PVE token collection game relevant to people who do not get to collect PVE tokens? And not remove gameplay for the people that always were able to collect those PVE tokens?

My whole point in this is that since the instancing model does not change, changing the 'mode' model is ineffective/useless. In the end, all we can do is wait and see. I have my expectations and you have yours.

 

[Roybe]

Admission: Didn’t read all 13 pages.

To me this is a partial admission that they really don’t know where to go or what to do and that the game is not going to get unlimited Dev time and resources thrown at it. The ED market is tapped. The bulk of sales have already occurred.

If they chuck stuff into Open then they really don’t have to fix it or add solid core content. Let (force) the players to make their own content in Open with minimal input and work from FDev. Solid content for a individual player is a lot of work.
Put it on auto-pilot while FDev works on the next cash cow.
That’s a tinfoil hat idea of mine and I hope I am wrong.

I think the admission is that they are realizing that the can't have their cake and eat it to (have a strong anti-PVP feedback loop in a game that desires PVP).

If they follow through with this, they will be able to justify creating new game content that will be mode locked to Open.

If they do not follow through with it, it is the end of real PVP for the game.

 

[Zeeman]

That's not how I envisage it'll be at all. The mere fact that a haulage run could be intercepted makes the trip more tense - the grindy feeling comes from uneventful trips and watching 'invisible' players move the numbers. Getting 600t of material to a given station would now have a deeper sense of worth and meaning, as opposed to 600t merely being 9% (or whatever) in the grind up to 100% fortification and then move to the next target. There will be real potential threats to prevent you completing a run; be that by destruction or forcing you to route. There is then all the cooperative gameplay elements to consider, from both attacker and defender.
It will be far, far from a grind as we know them now.

I may even be giving it a try now, that there is some potential risk/fun involved.

Z...

 

[Perseus]

I may even be giving it a try now, that there is some potential risk/fun involved.

Z...

I like the cut of your jib!

 

[Perseus]

I think that this is rather funny... mainly because IF true it shows people were not interested in PVP. If the PVPers are abandoning PVP don't blame the modes, PP, or anything else. There was no " more efficient mode" , or a "path of least resistance" and any "hamster wheel grind" was in open as it was elsewhere. As for "farting their own trail" that also speaks volumes. People were given the choices of doing things in any mode, if some harassed others beyond consensual PVP to the point they no longer wanted to PVP to do things, or those who are PVP's stanchest proponents abandoned PVP to do their power play... it isn't a faulty game design or the fault of anyone else.

Well, I'm glad you're amused.
I am blaming the modes, however, and it seems FDev are concerned enough about it too. I can't explain the concept of competition and efficiency any better than it has been over the forums. Entrenched opinions or preferences are one thing, game development is another.

 

[Jockey79]

Well, I'm glad you're amused.
I am blaming the modes, however, and it seems FDev are concerned enough about it too. I can't explain the concept of competition and efficiency any better than it has been over the forums. Entrenched opinions or preferences are one thing, game development is another.

You can blame who you like, but the threads with PvP'ers telling people to get out of Open are still on the forums.

I spent months telling people they were hurting themselves with their actions and I was ignored - and here we are, Open folks complaining and crying over lack of people in Open, to the point Frontier needs to force people to play there.

We know where the blame truly sits, the proof is still here. Go read S.O.G 1 & 2 to see it.

Edit: turned the 1 & 2 above into links for those threads, as some folks are too lazy to look on page 3 for them.

 

[Mouse]

Well, I'm glad you're amused.
I am blaming the modes, however, and it seems FDev are concerned enough about it too. I can't explain the concept of competition and efficiency any better than it has been over the forums. Entrenched opinions or preferences are one thing, game development is another.

Blaming the mods for the actions of people is amusing. Pointing to me and claiming it is the modes fault why you and others who profess PVP is the best thing in the game are playing along side me in PG's and Solo is funny. You ignore facts because they are inconvenient to your beliefs.

 

[Riverside]

Well, I'm glad you're amused.
I am blaming the modes, however, and it seems FDev are concerned enough about it too. I can't explain the concept of competition and efficiency any better than it has been over the forums. Entrenched opinions or preferences are one thing, game development is another.

ED is several games all played on the same map. It gives you the ability to play with whoever you want to, using a simple black & white list. The only issue comes from wanting to play with people that don't want to play with you. I try to play in a way that accommodates the other player's wishes.

 

[Perseus]

Just to clarify: I'm not blaming any persons (Jockey said "who" and Mouse said "mods" - don't know if you're both displaying Freudian slips guys!).
Everyone has opinions and preferences - your incessant claims of them being proof and fact are ridiculous, I'm sorry to say.

 

[DukeIronHand]

I think the admission is that they are realizing that the can't have their cake and eat it to (have a strong anti-PVP feedback loop in a game that desires PVP).

If they follow through with this, they will be able to justify creating new game content that will be mode locked to Open.

If they do not follow through with it, it is the end of real PVP for the game.

The game desires PvP?
FDev clearly stated that only a small number or % (I forget their exact phrasing) of Cmdr’s engage in PvP.
Assuming the game takes a PvP turn then I am gone.

I don’t play ED for combat. I have much better games for that.

 

[Mouse]

Just to clarify: I'm not blaming any persons (Jockey said "who" and Mouse said "mods" - don't know if you're both displaying Freudian slips guys!).
Everyone has opinions and preferences - your incessant claims of them being proof and fact are ridiculous, I'm sorry to say.

so I forgot an E.. oh well.. that doesn't change the fact that you are blaming the modEs of the game for the actions of people... those who PVP yet decided to forgo their beloved PVP and play the game the rest of us are playing against the environment. Those are the facts.. the modes are not to blame, but you and others want to cast blame on them to divert it from yourselves. So if you are looking for a Freudian slip, as you said, may I suggest a mirror.

 

[Perseus]

so I forgot an E.. oh well.. that doesn't change the fact that you are blaming the modEs of the game for the actions of people... those who PVP yet decided to forgo their beloved PVP and play the game the rest of us are playing against the environment. Those are the facts.. the modes are not to blame, but you and others want to cast blame on them to divert it from yourselves. So if you are looking for a Freudian slip, as you said, may I suggest a mirror.

Complete dribble in light of the previous posts and the reasons for the proposed changes.

 

[Jockey79]

Just to clarify: I'm not blaming any persons (Jockey said "who" and Mouse said "mods" - don't know if you're both displaying Freudian slips guys!).
Everyone has opinions and preferences - your incessant claims of them being proof and fact are ridiculous, I'm sorry to say.

I said "you can" not that you "are" blaming anyone.

So instead of trying to blame me for saying it wrong, how about you read it right?

As to my point, I linked the threads. The actual blame is on the players who smugly shouted "if you don't like it, leave" - so people did.
Which I amongst others pointed out would happen.

None of the blame is the fault on the modes, it's the players who were so arrogant they thought they could do anything without consequence.
Well, that consequence was fewer and fewer people playing the content in Open. Now they want Frontier to force people back into Open.

 

[Rubbernuke]

so I forgot an E.. oh well.. that doesn't change the fact that you are blaming the modEs of the game for the actions of people.

The most destructive way to harm a Power is via 5C- by far. Months, if not years of work can be erased in two weeks, all driven by loopholes in the game design and that some modes permanently hide these players from legitimate ones.

The blame rests squarely on players exploiting these loopholes- if a design could be made that shut these flaws and makes all modes equal I'm all ears. But dev time for PP is limited, and changes have to provide a lot of value ruling out massive rewrites.

 

[Jockey79]

The most destructive way to harm a Power is via 5C- by far. Months, if not years of work can be erased in two weeks, all driven by loopholes in the game design and that some modes permanently hide these players from legitimate ones.

The blame rests squarely on players exploiting these loopholes- if a design could be made that shut these flaws and makes all modes equal I'm all ears. But dev time for PP is limited, and changes have to provide a lot of value ruling out massive rewrites.

Remove Power Play, then Dev time can go on adding new content instead of this drip fed story that's lasted 3 years, has hardly moved and is "beyond" boring.