Modes What is Sandro playing at?

[Perseus]

I said "you can" not that you "are" blaming anyone.

So instead of trying to blame me for saying it wrong, how about you read it right?

As to my point, I linked the threads. The actual blame is on the players who smugly shouted "if you don't like it, leave" - so people did.
Which I amongst others pointed out would happen.

None of the blame is the fault on the modes, it's the players who were so arrogant they thought they could do anything without consequence.
Well, that consequence was fewer and fewer people playing the content in Open. Now they want Frontier to force people back into Open.

You said "you can blame who you like...." Who is a pronoun for a PERSON, not a thing.
Seriously, read your own stuff right - or maybe make a chart?

In addition, you're completely missing the point of the proposal and trying to push some cheesy PvE purist rubbish about Open destroying itself, just as your amazing powers of prediction foretold .
PP moved out of Open because it loses potency to Solo and Private. Open itself seems to be just fine in terms of participation.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You said "you can blame who you like...." Who is a pronoun for a PERSON, not a thing.
Seriously, read your own stuff right - or maybe make a chart?

I made a chart!

 

[Jockey79]

You said "you can blame who you like...." Who is a pronoun for a PERSON, not a thing.
Seriously, read your own stuff right - or maybe make a chart?

In addition, you're completely missing the point of the proposal and trying to push some cheesy PvE purist rubbish about Open destroying itself, just as your amazing powers of prediction foretold .
PP moved out of Open because it loses potency to Solo and Private. Open itself seems to be just fine in terms of participation.

/sigh.

Again;

"you can"; not "you have to", "you must", "you should", "you will" or any other way to want to deliberately misread what I've written (but thanks for clearing up my question in the other thread, the answer is "dishonest")
It is your choice where you want to try and lay the blame.

But the truth is still there, it's the players claiming open for their COD in space that ruined open.
And misusing PP to "grief" others is why people left open. Those who just sign up to a power to bypass C&P is why Solo / Groups is currently the prefered way of doing PP

I made a chart!

There isn't enough rep in the world to upvote this where it blongs.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Remove Power Play, then Dev time can go on adding new content instead of this drip fed story that's lasted 3 years, has hardly moved and is "beyond" boring.

What is your argument again? I'm confused.

So rather than try these changes and see if they work, you advocate removing it all?

 

[Perseus]

/sigh.

Again;

"you can"; not "you have to", "you must", "you should", "you will" or any other way to want to deliberately misread what I've written (but thanks for clearing up my question in the other thread, the answer is "dishonest")
It is your choice where you want to try and lay the blame.

But the truth is still there, it's the players claiming open for their COD in space that ruined open.
And misusing PP to "grief" others is why people left open. Those who just sign up to a power to bypass C&P is why Solo / Groups is currently the prefered way of doing PP




There isn't enough rep in the world to upvote this where it blongs.

Condescending rubbish, as usual, with grandiose claims of truth mingled with paranoia, stereotyping and an anti PvP propaganda.
@Agony, that chart is pure class.

 

[Jockey79]

What is your argument again? I'm confused.

So rather than try these changes and see if they work, you advocate removing it all?

I'd rather they try their list of changes (except mode locking), plus some of the suggestions in the PP subsection are good ideas.

But if people want to force extreme measures, then I vote for removing this so called "failed feature".
Because if it as bad as some of the people around here say it is, then way waste time mode locking it?
Just cut it out and be done with it.

@Perseus

Still not going to answer then?
Still proving my point for me.

How does taking content away from people, expand the game - as you've claimed?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'd rather they try their list of changes (except mode locking), plus some of the suggestions in the PP subsection are good ideas.

But if people want to force extreme measures, then I vote for removing this so called "failed feature".
Because if it as bad as some of the people around here say it is, then way waste time mode locking it?
Just cut it out and be done with it.

@Perseus

Still not going to answer then?
Still proving my point for me.

How does taking content away from people, expand the game - as you've claimed?

To answer your latter question with the first: open and PG generate low grade 'out-haul the other to win' gameplay.

In Open you have teamwork with wing (and eventually Squadron / carriers) as well as multicrew to make that more exciting, with a more level field that cuts out the possibility of 5C exploiting modes 'legally' within the game.

 

[Perseus]

I'd rather they try their list of changes (except mode locking), plus some of the suggestions in the PP subsection are good ideas.

But if people want to force extreme measures, then I vote for removing this so called "failed feature".
Because if it as bad as some of the people around here say it is, then way waste time mode locking it?
Just cut it out and be done with it.

@Perseus

Still not going to answer then?
Still proving my point for me.

How does taking content away from people, expand the game - as you've claimed?

Read what has been written over the forum, Jockey. Or, for brevity and to use your own example, think back to your idea of simple maths: You think the proposal is a subtraction because PvEers can't do PP if there is a risk of PvP - I think it's an addition via the unification of a whole from what had been fractions (also read fracture).
PP is about consensual PvP = and that's from the Dev's. Direct PvP in open. I know you hate the idea and that's fine but the fact is, that is what the Devs have said PP is for and that's what quite a few posters have got hyped about. Beyond is about correcting and balancing mistakes from the past and one of those mistakes is PP should never have been available in the other modes - hence your apparent deep concern about losing something (a PvP game element. The same PvP you don't advocate in any form except the CQC sideshow, of course).
I've answered all your questions, you just don't like the responses. People will read the thread and see that. Pretending you are in some kind of unassailable position of truth is a sad fantasy on your part.

edit - check out my post 183 on this thread for a little bit of info on how I see it expanding the game.

 

[Jockey79]

To answer your latter question with the first: open and PG generate low grade 'out-haul the other to win' gameplay.

In Open you have teamwork with wing (and eventually Squadron / carriers) as well as multicrew to make that more exciting, with a more level field that cuts out the possibility of 5C exploiting modes 'legally' within the game.

"out haul" has been the key stone for Power Play since the very start.
It was clear the goal for it is who can move the most PvE tokens each cycle.
Factor in how PvP grants no merits. Then ask yourself this;

Can you call something a "consensual PvP" system, when the only action not rewarded in it, is PvP?


Because I have no idea how Sandro calls Power Play the PvP system and keeps a straight face saying it.

As for Wings and Multi-crew. I'm yet to see a day go by where people are not complaining how they don't work properly.
Either here or on social media, nothing but complaints the "multiplayer" side of the game keeps failing.
Even I gave up trying, when my escort wingmate kept ending up in different instances than me.
Or my multi-crew mate kept getting kicked when they tried to do something other than sit in the chair.
The matchmaker and peer to peer just seems to really suck for an "MMO".

As for 5C, that is being talked about elsewhere.
I've not followed the chat much, but those who do it have said this current list of changes won't stop them.
Something about messing with the factions in control systems, to harm the Power there? (something like that)
I don't know, 5C gives me a headache - but they seem to think that they can still mess up Power Play even after the changes.
So that would make open only a pointless change if they are right.

As you touched on my other question, but didn't actually answer it;

How does taking content away from players - expand the game?

 

[Rubbernuke]

"out haul" has been the key stone for Power Play since the very start.
It was clear the goal for it is who can move the most PvE tokens each cycle.
Factor in how PvP grants no merits. Then ask yourself this;

Can you call something a "consensual PvP" system, when the only action not rewarded in it, is PvP?


Because I have no idea how Sandro calls Power Play the PvP system and keeps a straight face saying it.

As for Wings and Multi-crew. I'm yet to see a day go by where people are not complaining how they don't work properly.
Either here or on social media, nothing but complaints the "multiplayer" side of the game keeps failing.
Even I gave up trying, when my escort wingmate kept ending up in different instances than me.
Or my multi-crew mate kept getting kicked when they tried to do something other than sit in the chair.
The matchmaker and peer to peer just seems to really suck for an "MMO".

As for 5C, that is being talked about elsewhere.
I've not followed the chat much, but those who do it have said this current list of changes won't stop them.
Something about messing with the factions in control systems, to harm the Power there? (something like that)
I don't know, 5C gives me a headache - but they seem to think that they can still mess up Power Play even after the changes.
So that would make open only a pointless change if they are right.

As you touched on my other question, but didn't actually answer it;

How does taking content away from players - expand the game?

Basic Powerplay is indeed outhaul the other. You can do it as much as you like, unhindered by anyone. But, its dull, because its like a wing mission you do yourself that costs you money and time. No-one interdicts you, its just back and forward, A to B. Is that a 'rich' gameplay experience? I'd wager its not. People complain that its not.

Now, what if you were subject to being hunted? Danger level rises, you have to consider a lot more. Now you have to be more alert for danger- your ship needs to be prepared, as do you.

I'd agree the P2P aspect is not ideal. But, when you've seen 15 odd commanders in an instance battling it out, with more in SC its amazing. Teamwork, rivalry- its great. Its high grade, skill based teamwork.

As for 5C, that is being talked about elsewhere.
I've not followed the chat much, but those who do it have said this current list of changes won't stop them.
Something about messing with the factions in control systems, to harm the Power there? (something like that)
I don't know, 5C gives me a headache - but they seem to think that they can still mess up Power Play even after the changes.
So that would make open only a pointless change if they are right.

Each change on its own won't make it 5C watertight. Together they will significantly reduce it though. Voting is a step in the right direction, but being in Open gives you the chance to see who is being silly, while if they are in Solo or PG you never will.

Instancing, blocking etc are technical hurdles- but not insurmountable ones if features demand their quality improves.

In any rate, these changes are much much better than what we have. Being able to drop systems makes 5C less of an issue, but on top of Open only, prep voting, pledge length weighting, its what's on offer and IMO should be taken.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Basic Powerplay is indeed outhaul the other. You can do it as much as you like, unhindered by anyone. But, its dull, because its like a wing mission you do yourself that costs you money and time. No-one interdicts you, its just back and forward, A to B. Is that a 'rich' gameplay experience? I'd wager its not. People complain that its not.

Now, what if you were subject to being hunted? Danger level rises, you have to consider a lot more. Now you have to be more alert for danger- your ship needs to be prepared, as do you.

I'd agree the P2P aspect is not ideal. But, when you've seen 15 odd commanders in an instance battling it out, with more in SC its amazing. Teamwork, rivalry- its great. Its high grade, skill based teamwork.

I agree with you - that kind of gameplay with being hunted by other players is exciting - if you want and actively seek out that type of gameplay. I remember deciding one evening to have a game of cat and mouse with a group of gankers at a Barnacle site who were basically seeking out and destroying every ship they could get a hold off. I was flying my very fast engineered iEagle with an SRV fitted, and I was out in my SRV with ship dismissed, hiding nearby and taunting them over comms. Wasted a good 30 minutes of their time as they flew around looking for my SRV. Most amusing. After I was eventually found and my jalopy blown up, I ended up flying back to them in the iEagle and wasting another 30 minutes of their time - not being blown up due to the sheer speed of my ship (I was eventually blown up though with a good snipe shot from a railgun ).

However, there are a lot of customers of Frontier who don't seek out this type of gameplay, and want their game to not involve being hunted by other customers - hence the client connectivity modes, and hence the objection to having their ability to play content they have paid for just as much as the other paying customers, removed from their game.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I agree with you - that kind of gameplay with being hunted by other players is exciting - if you want and actively seek out that type of gameplay. I remember deciding one evening to have a game of cat and mouse with a group of gankers at a Barnacle site who were basically seeking out and destroying every ship they could get a hold off. I was flying my very fast engineered iEagle with an SRV fitted, and I was out in my SRV with ship dismissed, hiding nearby and taunting them over comms. Wasted a good 30 minutes of their time as they flew around looking for my SRV. Most amusing. After I was eventually found and my jalopy blown up, I ended up flying back to them in the iEagle and wasting another 30 minutes of their time - not being blown up due to the sheer speed of my ship (I was eventually blown up though with a good snipe shot from a railgun ).

Yup, that does sound great.

However, there are a lot of customers of Frontier who don't seek out this type of gameplay, and want their game to not involve being hunted by other customers - hence the client connectivity modes, and hence the objection to having their ability to play content they have paid for just as much as the other paying customers, removed from their game.

Surely that is what the BGS is for. The BGS is far more rewarding then powerplay in every single way in solo and PG and for open if you like PvE activities.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I agree with you - that kind of gameplay with being hunted by other players is exciting - if you want and actively seek out that type of gameplay. I remember deciding one evening to have a game of cat and mouse with a group of gankers at a Barnacle site who were basically seeking out and destroying every ship they could get a hold off. I was flying my very fast engineered iEagle with an SRV fitted, and I was out in my SRV with ship dismissed, hiding nearby and taunting them over comms. Wasted a good 30 minutes of their time as they flew around looking for my SRV. Most amusing. After I was eventually found and my jalopy blown up, I ended up flying back to them in the iEagle and wasting another 30 minutes of their time - not being blown up due to the sheer speed of my ship (I was eventually blown up though with a good snipe shot from a railgun ).

However, there are a lot of customers of Frontier who don't seek out this type of gameplay, and want their game to not involve being hunted by other customers - hence the client connectivity modes, and hence the objection to having their ability to play content they have paid for just as much as the other paying customers, removed from their game.

I'd have to ask then, what is the point of Powerplay to begin with, if its simply duplicating a more abstract version of the BGS? What sort of experience is intended? Sandro seems to want to make Powerplay more distinct than it is now- hence the Open aspect. If you want more laid back things then stick to the BGS, where it has rules, C + P, and is pretty much play at your own pace. Powerplay is time critical, with real-time situations with real commanders wanting to both help or kill you.

 

[Jockey79]

Basic Powerplay is indeed outhaul the other. You can do it as much as you like, unhindered by anyone. But, its dull, because its like a wing mission you do yourself that costs you money and time. No-one interdicts you, its just back and forward, A to B. Is that a 'rich' gameplay experience? I'd wager its not. People complain that its not.

Now, what if you were subject to being hunted? Danger level rises, you have to consider a lot more. Now you have to be more alert for danger- your ship needs to be prepared, as do you.

I'd agree the P2P aspect is not ideal. But, when you've seen 15 odd commanders in an instance battling it out, with more in SC its amazing. Teamwork, rivalry- its great. Its high grade, skill based teamwork.

See, I got my first big ship doing A-B-A trading. Just hour after hour of going to and fro, over and over.
At the time I was working (with the general public), it was a great way to relax. Uninterrupted, mind numbing, no other people to deal with, it was bliss.

Now I'm retired I cannot do it as I once did, now I need something to wake up my mind.

But the thing is, some people need that stillness, that dull gameplay, that mind numbing effect to unwind at the end of day and Power Play is perfect for it.
Grab those vouchers, take them 3 jumps, come back for more... nothing to think about, nothing to fret over, just a dull task to chill out with at the end of a nasty day.

Now it could be taken away from people who use that as their escape from the real world like I used to do.

Missions are too random to do this consistently without board flipping and the markets bounce a lot when you're in a big ship, so it's having to find new routes al lthe time.
Power Play is the only consistent way to get a solid week of back and forth, to and fro, slowly fall aslee......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Each change on its own won't make it 5C watertight. Together they will significantly reduce it though. Voting is a step in the right direction, but being in Open gives you the chance to see who is being silly, while if they are in Solo or PG you never will.

Instancing, blocking etc are technical hurdles- but not insurmountable ones if features demand their quality improves.

In any rate, these changes are much much better than what we have. Being able to drop systems makes 5C less of an issue, but on top of Open only, prep voting, pledge length weighting, its what's on offer and IMO should be taken.

I hope it does help with the 5C problem. As this from what I've seen is one of the biggest issues.

Like I said, I'm not really up to date on it as 5C is too much time / effort and headache for me.
So I just browse the threads to get a gist of what's going on, for times I may need to refer back to it.
They did seem pretty confident that they can do something after the changes to mess with Power Play, but I'm sure Frontier will work on that and sort it as needed.

I'll have to look for the thread and link it to you - perhaps you can decipher it for me and ELI5 what they are on about

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Hoping you're right...but, the game offers very little for PVP as it is, a lot of PVP folks are looking at the end of the year for an exit if the status quo does not change. Making this type of statement and then NOT doing it..will definitely cost them customers, sooner.

I wonder if they'll be more than the customers they'll lose because of this PP idea.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I'd have to ask then, what is the point of Powerplay to begin with, if its simply duplicating a more abstract version of the BGS? What sort of experience is intended?

The point of Powerplay was described in 2015 when it was first introduced. And yes, it literally is another abstract version of the BGS - probably even used copies of code written for the BGS but adapted for within the context of Powerplay.

The point of Powerplay was as a sort of game of Space Risk, where the customer of Frontier could join in and support their Power of choice, no matter what game client connectivity mode they had selected when they started the game. All this was explained in the 2015 forum topic which introduced Powerplay. Again, it literally is a sort of 'super-BGS', using very similar mechanics to the standard BGS - i.e. success is gained via movement of PvE tokens, so again like the standard BGS, it's 99.9% played via Move The Thing, To The Other Thing.

Sandro seems to want to make Powerplay more distinct than it is now- hence the Open aspect.

Removing content from the reach of paying customers after 3 years of said content being available to those paying customers, is IMO a misguided move. I've laid out various reasons for that in my own thread topic a few days ago - 'customer' reasons and technical reasons why it doesn't make sense. Lots agree, some don't.

If Sandro wants to make Powerplay more distinct than it is now, IMO that's best achieved by adding more flesh to the Powerplay game, rather than deciding to remove content that has been available to his paying customers for 3 years.

If you want more laid back things then stick to the BGS, where it has rules, C + P, and is pretty much play at your own pace. Powerplay is time critical, with real-time situations with real commanders wanting to both help or kill you.

Honestly, I don't think PvP'ers are going to be seeing any more Powerplaying CMDR's than they do now. If Sandro goes ahead with this, time will tell I suppose and I'll freely admit my prediction was wrong.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Players can care as much as they want. I could support the 'Red Python owners club', but the game and other players would not be able to tell.
No player has any connection to the BGS, in the eyes of the game.

You'd be able to tell by the effects on the supported faction. PP is just more official and it has less (and thus) larger teams.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

When two of the three modes gives you a free pass to do what you like consequence free- the 5c who wreck powers from the inside out use these modes.

At least in open you have consequences, just like C + P.

In all honesty you can simply block your PP oponents and own a decently geared ship, and voila, you'll be dancing around those who think they'll affect your undermining campain.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Have you all got your head around the fact that it won't affect you?

Well, it won't affect me although that doesn't mean I'm ok with it.

 

[Han_Zen]

You'd be able to tell by the effects on the supported faction. PP is just more official and it has less (and thus) larger teams.

NPCs are on the faction team. We are not.
My panel says ‘No Faction’, even though I’m a member of the Meta faction Canonn.

You don’t know that and the game doesn’t know that. It’s pure meta.