Modes What is Sandro playing at?

[Perseus]

In all honesty you can simply block your PP oponents and own a decently geared ship, and voila, you'll be dancing around those who think they'll affect your undermining campain.

Unless the block function changes if you're PP pledged. From what I understand, it isn't a total block as is now, more a listing priority. I'm happy to be educated more, if anyone knows.
You're right about means to exploit though. People will be trying to circumvent (cheat) using other means.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

NPCs are on the faction team. We are not.
My panel says ‘No Faction’, even though I’m a member of the Meta faction Canonn.

You don’t know that and the game doesn’t know that. It’s pure meta.

That's why I told you, PP is more "official" as you can signal the world that you support a power, in essence, its a tag, nothing more.

Unless the block function changes if you're PP pledged. From what I understand, it isn't a total block as is now, more a listing priority. I'm happy to be educated more, if anyone knows.
You're right about means to exploit though. People will be trying to circumvent (cheat) using other means.

AFAIK when you block somebody it is less likely to be instanced with him/her and you probably only will be seeing him if he's on your friend list or in a wing with you.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If Sandro wants to make Powerplay more distinct than it is now, IMO that's best achieved by adding more flesh to the Powerplay game, rather than deciding to remove content that has been available to his paying customers for 3 years.

Honestly, I don't think PvP'ers are going to be seeing any more Powerplaying CMDR's than they do now. If Sandro goes ahead with this, time will tell I suppose and I'll freely admit my prediction was wrong.

It does feel like a last ditch effort.

A low cost move to reanimate a largely failed feature. It being low cost, implies that there is little trust in the success of reanimating it. Otherwise they would have addressed core features of Powerplay, they would have actually developed it by putting time and effort into it. If it fails, nothing much is lost. Some tweaking, and some instance limitations. So Sandro goes: "Hail Mary!" and drops the Open Only stinkbomb.

As you said, we'll see if the gamble pays off. If it doesn't, the stakes were low to start with.

 

[Jockey79]

Unless the block function changes if you're PP pledged. From what I understand, it isn't a total block as is now, more a listing priority. I'm happy to be educated more, if anyone knows.
You're right about means to exploit though. People will be trying to circumvent (cheat) using other means.

Yea, it's not a total block as it stands, so you got the idea right.

If I were to put you on block, the MM has no reason to instance us, so I wouldn't see you ever.
Though if I joined a wing with one of your friends, then regardless of my block, I'd get instanced with you if your friends was online.

I have had it do it once (and only once, so maybe a bug?) where there 3 of us in an instance and had issues;
A seen B, B seen C, C seen A, but it didn't do it the other way. And we were all on each others friends lists and in the same PG.

This is one of the things I keep trying to explain to people.
Use of the friends list and block functions can make open as lonely as solo, or as busy as open could be - if used properly.

It would make sense for a new filter to be added for Power Play to override personal block lists, but that makes sense and we are talking about Frontier.
The same people who made a "PvP system" that doesn't reward PvP or encourage it and can be played alone for indirect PvP.

 

[Perseus]

Yea, it's not a total block as it stands, so you got the idea right.

If I were to put you on block, the MM has no reason to instance us, so I wouldn't see you ever.
Though if I joined a wing with one of your friends, then regardless of my block, I'd get instanced with you if your friends was online.

I have had it do it once (and only once, so maybe a bug?) where there 3 of us in an instance and had issues;
A seen B, B seen C, C seen A, but it didn't do it the other way. And we were all on each others friends lists and in the same PG.

This is one of the things I keep trying to explain to people.
Use of the friends list and block functions can make open as lonely as solo, or as busy as open could be - if used properly.

It would make sense for a new filter to be added for Power Play to override personal block lists, but that makes sense and we are talking about Frontier.
The same people who made a "PvP system" that doesn't reward PvP or encourage it and can be played alone for indirect PvP.

Thanks for the clarification!
It would need to addressed if this proposal even sees the light of day. We certainly do have some topsy-turvy stuff in the game.

 

[Jockey79]

Thanks for the clarification!
It would need to addressed if this proposal even sees the light of day. We certainly do have some topsy-turvy stuff in the game.

You're right on the topsy-turvy way the game is built.

It's one of the reasons I keep saying it had "MMO" tacked on as an afterthought.
Nothing about Elite when it came out even suggested it was suited to being an MMO.
Even had a forum argument over it, as the first incarnation of the web site didn't say it was an MMO, but when the second version came out they added the tag.
Of course I hadn't seen it, so when I was arguing to say it isn't an MMO, someone linked me the updated site.

To this day, I still cannot figure out why they did that.

Multiplayer features that work sporadically, content that is suited to Solo play, all forms of direct PvP punished / ignored with indirect PvP being the go to stance.

Nothing about this game screams "great MMO experience".
It hardly whispers it's multiplayer game with the AWS / MM with P2P.

Perhaps the next version will be server / client with actual working and stable multiplayer features
We can just pretend this was the Dev tech demo before the real thing

#fingerscrossed

 

[Roybe]

The game desires PvP?
FDev clearly stated that only a small number or % (I forget their exact phrasing) of Cmdr’s engage in PvP.
Assuming the game takes a PvP turn then I am gone.

I don’t play ED for combat. I have much better games for that.

The devs desire pew pew to occur between players....but designed everything in the game to hinder it. Unless you believe that they wanted all the PVP to occur through PVE trophy chasing to provide the 'cut throat' part of their galactic sim.

 

[Roybe]

I've been part of an expedition (DECE: Dead End's Circumnavigation Expedition) since fall last year. We're going around the whole galaxy and will be done in 6 months.

One issue we have is that every couple of weeks we try to do a meetup and a mass jump together, in the same instance. The way we go about doing it is that we wing up with each other and essentially force the instancing server (or whatever it's called) to put us all into the same visual group. Now, the problem we're having is that we rarely can maintain more than 10-15 people in an instance before our computers/games start to crash and freeze. (link: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ming-content?p=6719566&viewfull=1#post6719566)

This issue shows that instancing isn't ready for a sensible PvP MMO game as Open-PP is supposed to be. The problem I have isn't so much that there's a technical limit around 10-15 players, but rather that the whole game executable goes nuts. Either the screen completely freezes, sometimes pixelates in the process, or the game just drops out of existence and the bug-report screen pops up. I haven't experienced any whole computer crash just yet, but hear that some have had that issue as well with blue screen.

Now, if FDev could at least somehow add a "try-catch" code in there to gracefully exit any crashes of this kind, perhaps take the player to the menu in worst case instead of a complete freeze/crash. In best case maybe just drop out of the instance and the other players disappear from your view (as they do when they log out). In some cases people are still there after their crash, visible to the other players, but won't disappear until a bit later.

I don't think Open-PP play will be any more satisfying for the hard core PP players if the enemy can fly around in separate instances or that your game crashes mid-combat only because of some wings entering the arena.

Something has to be done to improve the quality of these before it's even worth thinking of forcing PvP on a PP Open only idea.

(On a side note, I'm a supporter of putting PP in Open, just sayin', but some things needs to get done first.)

Another player explaining the problem with Open PP....instancing will not allow an acceptable experience to be had by any...and those that desire to 'stop' players, regardless of the reasons...will not be able to do so in numbers that will matter!

 

[Mouse]

The key thing those against the 5C and claiming PG and SOLO is only that it's all smoke and mirrors. Any undermining done in PG or Solo can be countered the exact same way in Open. And if your complaint is "a human player may shoot me and stop" I have only one thing to say. That is why you CHOSE to play in Open in the first place. You wanted that interaction and you are complaining about it now. Don't complain about others playing the game their way because you feel your choice of playstyle makes it harder. It is a utterly crap argument. Plus the people you can't see who are undermining your power could be in any of the three modes, plus you are not seeing the people who are helping either. People are doing for and against in all 3 modes like they were told they could. Now 3 years in FD wants to change and screw over 2 modes.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ests-how-to-get-50-000-players-back-into-Open

 

[Rubbernuke]

The key thing those against the 5C and claiming PG and SOLO is only that it's all smoke and mirrors. Any undermining done in PG or Solo can be countered the exact same way in Open. And if your complaint is "a human player may shoot me and stop" I have only one thing to say. That is why you CHOSE to play in Open in the first place. You wanted that interaction and you are complaining about it now. Don't complain about others playing the game their way because you feel your choice of playstyle makes it harder. It is a utterly crap argument. Plus the people you can't see who are undermining your power could be in any of the three modes, plus you are not seeing the people who are helping either. People are doing for and against in all 3 modes like they were told they could. Now 3 years in FD wants to change and screw over 2 modes.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ests-how-to-get-50-000-players-back-into-Open

Your answer to 5C is to.....do 5C as well?

Er...OK.

 

[BigF]

If PP wasn’t as devoid of content as the Sahara desert is of restaurants, and as generally as inspiring as watching paint dry in slo-mo then it would actually be worth fighting for.
The current changes will not change anyone’s game play, except which game mode they use. It’s likely to not change the outcome of each players PP efforts also.

 

[Goose4291]

The key thing those against the 5C and claiming PG and SOLO is only that it's all smoke and mirrors. Any undermining done in PG or Solo can be countered the exact same way in Open. And if your complaint is "a human player may shoot me and stop" I have only one thing to say. That is why you CHOSE to play in Open in the first place. You wanted that interaction and you are complaining about it now. Don't complain about others playing the game their way because you feel your choice of playstyle makes it harder. It is a utterly crap argument. Plus the people you can't see who are undermining your power could be in any of the three modes, plus you are not seeing the people who are helping either. People are doing for and against in all 3 modes like they were told they could. Now 3 years in FD wants to change and screw over 2 modes.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ests-how-to-get-50-000-players-back-into-Open

Nothing you wrote there has anything to do with the issues surrounding fifth columning.

 

[Mouse]

Nothing you wrote there has anything to do with the issues surrounding fifth columning.

Except for the link to Mobius's post it does. The argument I hear over and over about 5th column is that it is no fair they can do it in PG and Solo (which is unproven with instancing in Open) and that they can do it "efficiently" because no one can shoot them. It is all malarky.

 

[Goose4291]

Except for the link to Mobius's post it does. The argument I hear over and over about 5th column is that it is no fair they can do it in PG and Solo (which is unproven with instancing in Open) and that they can do it "efficiently" because no one can shoot them. It is all malarky.

Lets go through this one last time, shall we?

Fifth columning is the act of joining a power to intentionally hurt it (for example, prepping a negative CC system). There is no way to stop it in the current mechanics, and even if PP was open only, at present you couldnt stop it without massively penalising yourself (as you are penalised for killing so called 'allies'). It has absolutely nothing to do with this change.

Undermining is the act of going to an enemies system and killing its NPCs, in the hopes of increasing its weekly cost to the controlling power. At present you can do this unopposed in either solo or a well curated PG, possibly even running a bot to achieve this while you go to work. This change intends to address this issue, as well as similar issues with fortification, preparation and expansiob.

The two are completely unconnected.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Except for the link to Mobius's post it does. The argument I hear over and over about 5th column is that it is no fair they can do it in PG and Solo (which is unproven with instancing in Open) and that they can do it "efficiently" because no one can shoot them. It is all malarky.

In PG you define who joins you- so if you and 3 others make AFK boats with healing beam circles you can happily let them sit and rack up those wing enhanced merits, no user required! This is a proactive 5c exploit in PP.

In Open, even if you misuse the block function to simply create Solo again that requires you to actually know who attacked you. Its a retroactive exploit.

 

[Robert Maynard]

In PG you define who joins you- so if you and 3 others make AFK boats with healing beam circles you can happily let them sit and rack up those wing enhanced merits, no user required! This is a proactive 5c exploit in PP.

Possibly not for long, regardless of multi-player game mode: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/428735-HEALING-BEAMS-POWERPLAY-EXPLOIT

 

[Jockey79]

In PG you define who joins you- so if you and 3 others make AFK boats with healing beam circles you can happily let them sit and rack up those wing enhanced merits, no user required! This is a proactive 5c exploit in PP.

In Open, even if you misuse the block function to simply create Solo again that requires you to actually know who attacked you. Its a retroactive exploit.

You don't need to know who attacked you if you were AFK.
Just go to your history when you respawn and block the top name - as that'll be the one.
And if you're not 100% sure, just block all of them in your history.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You don't need to know who attacked you if you were AFK.
Just go to your history when you respawn and block the top name - as that'll be the one.
And if you're not 100% sure, just block all of them in your history.

Which just demonstrates to FD that the blocking tools need a rework as well, otherwise squadrons will simply not work either- commanders scattergun blocking is silly in an Open only context.

Possibly not for long, regardless of multi-player game mode: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/428735-HEALING-BEAMS-POWERPLAY-EXPLOIT

Lets hope this change happens, as it would help a great deal.

 

[Jockey79]

Which just demonstrates to FD that the blocking tools need a rework as well, otherwise squadrons will simply not work either- commanders scattergun blocking is silly in an Open only context.

Thing is, the block tool in its current state - is the rework.

You use to have to "friend" someone before you could block them, but needless to say that didn't work as "trolls and griefers" would just ignore the friend request.

So it was changed to be tied in with the comms block, to make it more useful.
Alas, like how Power Play is abused to avoid C&P the block can be abused to avoid PvP.

Not to mention peer to peer networking means people can use firewall software and block incoming connections for the same effect.

The entire game was not made to be an "MMO", it was made with casual multiplayer in mind.
Which is why there are so many flaws with direct competitive PvP.
Even forcing open for PP isn't going to fix it with so many glaring faults still there.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Thing is, the block tool in its current state - is the rework.

You use to have to "friend" someone before you could block them, but needless to say that didn't work as "trolls and griefers" would just ignore the friend request.

So it was changed to be tied in with the comms block, to make it more useful.
Alas, like how Power Play is abused to avoid C&P the block can be abused to avoid PvP.

Not to mention peer to peer networking means people can use firewall software and block incoming connections for the same effect.

The entire game was not made to be an "MMO", it was made with casual multiplayer in mind.
Which is why there are so many flaws with direct competitive PvP.
Even forcing open for PP isn't going to fix it with so many glaring faults still there.

Now that all these flaws and problems have been shaken out of the woodwork, fingers crossed they get addressed.