What went wrong with Elite Dangerous

[shadragon]

Seriously off topic now.

Get back on topic please.

I'll give it a shot.

If anyone has issues with the game to the stated degree, why are you here and not playing EVE? I mean that question seriously, not dismissively. If EVE (or whatever game you care to compare E: D too) is the end all and be all, why do you torture yourself playing a game that obviously annoys you.

There are still people moaning about no offline mode. If you feel that strongly about the cancelled offline mode why didn't you ask for a refund (as you were entitled to do)? If you didn't, it can't mean that much to you, can it?

There are a multitude of space sim games out there with all different flavours of game play. If E: D doesn't float your boat there's NMS, KSP, Rodina, and at least a dozen others. Not to mention other the genres of computer games like Fallout 4, The Division, etc.

If you need a story, then E: D isn't the game for you. If you are sitting on the launch pad looking for someone to tell you where to go, E: D isn't the game for you. If you want to be led by the hand, E: D isn't the game for you. There is no story, there is no end game, there is no path save what you set for yourself. It's a sandbox. You are given a shovel and pail and let loose. You can sit in the corner and moan that no one is telling you what to build, or you get stuck in and do something, anything. Expecting an active game to adapt to your passivity is wrong on so many levels.

I, for one, am tired of people trying to change the game I love into something they might like for a limited time.

 

[snadge]

Oh and this thread has NOTHING to do with PvP so please stop trying to derail it. It's about discussing the merits of eve style guild gameplay within ED.

I thought the thread was about the lack of content, not anything to do with EvE, the KS brigade tagged the complaint with that monicker.

To tell the truth, the more I play the game, the more I feel that the only worthwhile content in the game is, actually PvP, everything else gets stale very quickly.

 

[xondk]

I'm past the point of judging what the game may become. I'll judge it on what it is right now. I'm not really focussing on the Fed vs. Imp stations and surrounding area - it's just one example of where I would have expected that FD would have exploited the IP that exists already to improve the game experience across the board and differentiate a bit between these major in-game entities.

I think you bought the wrong game then, Elite was always marketed under the fact that they wanted to reach their scope over time, or maybe you bought Elite at the wrong time. It is a bit of a niche game, and game development type, kinda like how Eve online started out initially, and the first years are going to be rougher then those further along, I think Frontier and David Braben, has been exceedingly clear on this topic, and I knew what I got into, a lot don't seem to though, so maybe something was lost along the way.

I try and use a bit of imagination - perhaps authority vessels patrol in a different way ("Imperial cops always travel in wings of 3 - what's that one doing on his own?", dictatorship authority vessels intercept and escort arriving traders to starports so they can't nose around, or Federal military patrols in a system with a military are more aggressive and try and interdict any ship approaching that planet, or different factions would use different pools of NPC names so you'd recognise a ship employed by a local Federal corporation by only having a registration code (like Fed stations), whereas Imp navy ships might have flowery names. Independent traders would use the existing Kickstarter-supplied database. Arriving at a Theocracy? Expect to be met by acolytes in Adders expounding their beliefs.

More 'expressive' ship behaviour would require a more elaborate non-combat NPC AI, and we don't know anything about who works on that at FD and whether it's a priority.

Hrm, good point, though with supercruise and such it is a bit tricky, I mean ships are just dots until interdicted and such, though they could do some things, like make say specific groups, where fed type a b c d, would differ from imperial groups a b c d, and same with alliance in what types would be there, but yeah, we will see 2.1 is a massive overhaul.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Honestly, it's all the 40+ year-old original Elite vehemently anti-PvP fanboys that have (are?) ruining this game.
It's a neutered version of what it could have been. And the official forums have become an echo chamber full of them.

The solution? Stop attaching so much emotional value to your computer games. If you die, you die and respawn again. So what? IT IS A COMPUTER GAME. Play solo if that's what you like, or play private with your friends if that's what you like.
Lord almighty do you lot like to whine and carry on about the prospect of respawning in a make-believe spaceship due to the actions of another player. Hell, even my 6 year old cousin has a better attitude towards multiplayer games. Moderating https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteCombatLoggers/ has shown me the extent to which you cling to your make-believe ships, and it's sickening. You'd rather cheat and spit the dummy on the forums instead of playing the game cleanly and seeking revenge/reconciliation/feedback from the person who killed you.
Perhaps the most alarming thing is the fact that the game's average age demographic is twice my age.

So to all the whiners about potentially having their pretend spaceship destroyed:
Grow up and shut up. Welcome to the galaxy.

Nah, the solution is not to play in Open

And i don't even know who you are speaking to here. I think most of us are fine with losing ships. We all lose them from time to time. Just some of us don't like losing them to players without a good reason. We get AI are dumb, and only exist to kill or be killed a lot of the time. But PvPers do bang on about human interaction, and yet so often we don't get human interaction, we get something that provides less interaction than even NPCs. At least NPCs say they are going to boil us up first!

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

I can't rep you again this soon, but consider this a virtual +1.

In Rinzler's defense though, he's a hammer and sees everything as a nail. The PvP aspect exists and he cares about it. He probably erroneously thinks open mode was designed specifically for PvP. That's clearly not the case when you look at how ED was advertised and how open mode works. ED was advertised as a game where you can play alongside other players. Coop (PwP) was the design, not PvP.

This must be frustrating to someone who only wants PvP. The instancing, multiple modes and huge galaxy conspire to defeat sociopaths. Add the 15 second "legal" combat logging along with the actual combat logging and it must be maddening.

I won't cry a tear if and when these sociopaths move on to other games. I'm hoping the other games develop fast enough to satisfy their craving for whatever it is that they need. I can't understand their point of view and you probably can't either. We can, however, understand that they have a need that is beyond our ability to grasp.

I count myself fortunate that I don't get it. You should too. We're the norm in society. Let's embrace that and let them run off to whatever makes them happy.

I probably posted in bad taste, but that being said, I don't go around ganking people for no reason. I partake in wing vs wing fights against enemy player factions, I pirate people at CG's (always get in the top 50% without buying a tonne), I explore and make wallpapers, and help newbies out by taking them mining. What gets to me is that you can discuss anything on these forums except for PvP, where everyone becomes intensely hostile. I think a lot of PvP veterans have gone past the point of courtesy here due to that, which is probably bad taste, but I understand why all the same.

The game isn't designed specifically for PvP, and that's what makes it beautiful. It has multiple aspects that you can pick/choose, but taking that one aspect away completely through multiple modes, a forum of censorship, and "legal" combat logging really leaves a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. It kills what promise powerplay ever had.

A war between factions that added new combat mechanics based on pledges and control systems/allies? Heh. Moreso just a solo grind race with little to no combat. They all just combat log anyway.

 

[Hellhawk666]

In my opinion and considerable experience (been here since day one alpha done every role there is to do) ED is a perfectly serviceable playable game. It has much potential, whether it progresses beyond the serviceable is debatable.

Agreed.

The thing that I see as a problem with ED is two fold:

1) the game universe is far too big by several orders of magnitude.

2) the almost slavish determination by FD to reality

...

It's not the size of the game universe that is the problem, but the ease with which it can be traversed. We should not have been handed the whole galaxy on a plate to start with - it should have been out there and potentially reachable with great effort and teamplay, but not as easily as it is. Severely constrained travel due to wear and tear would also have initially corralled the playerbase into a much smaller area.

"What went wrong with Elite Dangerous" is pretty much a pointless question. If one enjoys playing then nothing went wrong, apart from maybe some minor issues with bugs. If one does not enjoy playing then a ton of things have "gone wrong".

For my part I do believe there are some fundamental design problems due to the simplicity with which many game mechanics have been implemented (e.g. the economic and political simulations), the lack or limitation of some systems (e.g. in-game communications), and the poor design of other basic mechanics (e.g. missions and exploration). The required complexity of separate systems is not in place to allow the AI to create interesting situations from their interaction, so the emphasis is constantly thrown back onto the player to invest the game with depth through imagination, and onto the developers to inject interesting events to give us something to do (both of these have their legitimate roles, of course, but they should not be the only ways that the game moves forward).

There's also a rather odd perspective to design on the part of FD in that they try very hard to make everything balanced, but in the wrong way. Everything in the game tends towards average states of rest, because that's how Powerplay, the minor factions and the economic simulation all work. There is no opportunity for something like a runaway market crash due to disaster or war, economic effects arising from changes in the political situation or newly exploited resources, or any other sort of emergent situation because the game is not designed to produce it. FD could have designed a game that had all of this and was very open to internal change and shifts in power, then stood back and said "let's see what happens". Instead we have a very static universe that requires constant micromanagement to make it seem alive. FD are masters of procedural generation and I'm surprised that they did not play to their strength more effectively.

There is a cliche about this game that as a sandbox it is a "mile wide and an inch deep", and while I agree to an extent I think that's only half the problem. To extend the metaphor, the bigger concern is that no matter what you do the sand resists being sculpted into anything. It just sits there.

 

[DaveB]

Well, the OP asks us to discuss a reddit thread.. so to be as perfectly on-topic as possible I'll simply say this:

I ceased visiting reddit years ago except under very limited circumstances. It has a level of toxicity in the "discussions" you find there and such a low signal to noise ratio that I can only liken it to usenet at its worst. If you remember usenet, you know exactly what I mean. (if you don't, get off my lawn.)

In my experience proliferation of negative comments on reddit seems to correlate with games that I enjoy - I know, sample size 1, insignificant, subjective, yadda yadda, but linking to reddit as cause for FD to radically change the direction of ED is a bit like referencing alt.wesley.die.die.die and using what was in there to try and influence the writers of Star Trek.

reddit is a vent hole and those always overflow with negativity.

 

[Achilles7]

I ceased visiting reddit years ago except under very limited circumstances. It has a level of toxicity in the "discussions" you find there and such a low signal to noise ratio

Sounds like my spiritual home..I'll check it out!

 

[Mighty Dangerous]

Frontier sold this game as an MMO.
Players expected an MMO.
Players never saw an MMO, they now think FD are incapable of making an MMO.

So, when we ask them what went wrong, they come up with MMO idea's to improve it because they think this is meant to be an MMO.
The nearest reference they have is Eve for ideas.

They keep saying about Crime and punishment, you want crime and punishment.
Never heard anyone say they will refuse crime and punishment because Eve has it.

Anyway, the point is, gamers were sold one thing and are getting something else.
So, Frontier create the confusion and continue to do so as long as they say it's an MMO in a cut throat galaxy.
Everything promotes that style of open game play yet it's not there.

And yes, you are all Victorian, kids should be seen and not heard comes to mind.

 

[Sandmann]

Frontier sold this game as an MMO.
Players expected an MMO.

SOME players have a predefined opinion about what an MMO is and isn't, and are inflexible about that definition. Frontier were also very open about what would and wouldn't be included in THEIR MMO, but SOME players chose to ignore that, then get upset when their unrealistic expectations were unmet.

 

[Thebadmf]

Now we're linking to other forums complaining Elite isn't like EVE?
Good [up]

/Salute. I'm so glad Elite isn't like Eve.

 

[sp0q]

I think these threads are a huge loss of energy. In december everyone will decide if they should buy into the next season based on how Horizons went and FD will decide if they took the right design path, from their point of view of course.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

I probably posted in bad taste, but that being said, I don't go around ganking people for no reason. I partake in wing vs wing fights against enemy player factions, I pirate people at CG's (always get in the top 50% without buying a tonne), I explore and make wallpapers, and help newbies out by taking them mining. What gets to me is that you can discuss anything on these forums except for PvP, where everyone becomes intensely hostile. I think a lot of PvP veterans have gone past the point of courtesy here due to that, which is probably bad taste, but I understand why all the same.

The game isn't designed specifically for PvP, and that's what makes it beautiful. It has multiple aspects that you can pick/choose, but taking that one aspect away completely through multiple modes, a forum of censorship, and "legal" combat logging really leaves a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. It kills what promise powerplay ever had.

A war between factions that added new combat mechanics based on pledges and control systems/allies? Heh. Moreso just a solo grind race with little to no combat. They all just combat log anyway.

+Rep for the opening line.

Good PvP in this game has been ruined by the bad. In pure PvP games this is normally balanced out by the good treating the bad like dirt - KOS every time you see a known ganker - get them so angry at dying all the time that they leave the server never to be seen again - Happens all the time.

Ed however is rather different due to it's size and network model. Where as 32 players in BF 4 will be there for quite a while in Ed they will only be there for a few minutes so there is no form of PvP self regulation.

I'm sure you know as a member of the SDC that organised PvP between two skilled groups is far more fun than a random kill with no fight back.

When it comes to the OP's question of What went wrong... I have to look at the PvP crowd and think - you didn't police yourselves. Now you are in a community that is largely toxic towards PvP and there seems to be no way back.

That, in my opinion, is what went wrong.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think these threads are a huge loss of energy. In december everyone will decide if they should buy into the next season based on how Horizons went and FD will decide if they took the right design path, from their point of view of course.

Not everyone.

Some have all major expansions included in their KS pledge tier, others bought into the Expansion pass at the first offering and still others bought the Lifetime Expansion Pass last year.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Frontier sold this game as an MMO.
Players expected an MMO.
Players never saw an MMO, they now think FD are incapable of making an MMO.
.

What is an MMO?

Officially WarThunder is an MMO, Star Conflict is an MMO.

David Braben however thinks that whilst ED is an MMO in the literal sense it is not one in the "normal" definition. He stated exactly that in an interview, and i have linked to it in the past, but cant find right now.

Also, given DB has stated he is not really a fan of MMOs does it not make sense that ED would do something different?

“On the Kickstarter site we’ve started detailing the ways we will be making PVP okay in the game without it being a real problem to the player. Firstly we’re still planning to have ‘save positions’, which feels really wrong in an MMO to a lot of people, but I actually think it addresses a lot of the issues and reasons why I don’t necessarily like MMO’s.

 

[xondk]

Nah, the solution is not to play in Open

And i don't even know who you are speaking to here. I think most of us are fine with losing ships. We all lose them from time to time. Just some of us don't like losing them to players without a good reason. We get AI are dumb, and only exist to kill or be killed a lot of the time. But PvPers do bang on about human interaction, and yet so often we don't get human interaction, we get something that provides less interaction than even NPCs. At least NPCs say they are going to boil us up first!

Bingo, exactly the point.

I probably posted in bad taste, but that being said, I don't go around ganking people for no reason. I partake in wing vs wing fights against enemy player factions, I pirate people at CG's (always get in the top 50% without buying a tonne), I explore and make wallpapers, and help newbies out by taking them mining. What gets to me is that you can discuss anything on these forums except for PvP, where everyone becomes intensely hostile. I think a lot of PvP veterans have gone past the point of courtesy here due to that, which is probably bad taste, but I understand why all the same.

The game isn't designed specifically for PvP, and that's what makes it beautiful. It has multiple aspects that you can pick/choose, but taking that one aspect away completely through multiple modes, a forum of censorship, and "legal" combat logging really leaves a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. It kills what promise powerplay ever had.

A war between factions that added new combat mechanics based on pledges and control systems/allies? Heh. Moreso just a solo grind race with little to no combat. They all just combat log anyway.

Last I checked the vast majority have no real problem with PvP, you know, actual PvP, you say people are hostile against PvP? but at least from my perspective, it seems to be dual sided, there are yes, people that dislike PvP, but PvP people also are hyper aware of these people, my impression is the vast majority of players, are somewhere in the middle and are fine with PvP and whatever can happen in open, the problem, is not PvP.

But, and only, those that destroy other people for no reason, no interaction, no nothing, just interdict boom, and while I haven't had it happen to me, personally, I can totally understand why that would frustrate, and the problem lies in the fact that you only need a few of these people, to sour the entire PvP experience, they are the aggressor, so they can affect many people, and if they do it enough those people begin to combat log and whatnot because of it. And you know what, if your experience is, some random person is going to randomly interdict you and blow you up, simply because he wants to and can, and likely has a very superior ship against your relatively smaller ship, then yeah, I can't really blame people, because as much as open mode means you want 'everything' to happen, if 'everything' turns into getting blown up by random dude for no reason, well yeah..

And then the arguments that come from the PvP side vs the few that actually dislike PvP, it gets blown up beyond proportions, and suddenly, and I've experienced this myself, people that are fine with PvP get accused of being care bears and whatnot, which is not going to make anyone agree with the those that call themselves PvP'ers.

So yeah, once those two sides get started, those of us in the majority, can try to reason with the sides, but often it just goes bad. And a lot of PvP people come across on the forum as very very aggressive people in general, which doesn't improve people's view on them and it then just spirals out of control, because some people then are put off by those reactions.

The problem isn't just from one side, but multiple, and people really, really don't want to admit that they might be making mistakes.
I was going to post to your other post and point out you seemed rather emotional, but then I saw this, and you know what I can respect that, this happens to everyone, and owning up to it is something rarely seen, well done, now if we can get this to happen more in general we might get somewhere.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Frontier sold this game as an MMO.
Players expected an MMO.
Players never saw an MMO, they now think FD are incapable of making an MMO.

So, when we ask them what went wrong, they come up with MMO idea's to improve it because they think this is meant to be an MMO.
The nearest reference they have is Eve for ideas.

They keep saying about Crime and punishment, you want crime and punishment.
Never heard anyone say they will refuse crime and punishment because Eve has it.

Anyway, the point is, gamers were sold one thing and are getting something else.
So, Frontier create the confusion and continue to do so as long as they say it's an MMO in a cut throat galaxy.
Everything promotes that style of open game play yet it's not there.

And yes, you are all Victorian, kids should be seen and not heard comes to mind.

Elite Dangerous is a MMO, just not the one some people where expecting, even tough it was pretty obvious from the start it wasn't going to be the same as other MMO's.

 

[Viajero]

*Mod hat of

How long has this game been going to die SOON?

From the Beta days I d say, over a couple years ago. Doom forecasts started appearing from the moment it was clear the game was actually going to be released.

More than 2 years and 1.5 million copies sold after, here we are.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Bingo, exactly the point.


Last I checked the vast majority have no real problem with PvP, you know, actual PvP, you say people are hostile against PvP? but at least from my perspective, it seems to be dual sided, there are yes, people that dislike PvP, but PvP people also are hyper aware of these people, my impression is the vast majority of players, are somewhere in the middle and are fine with PvP and whatever can happen in open, the problem, is not PvP.

But, and only, those that destroy other people for no reason, no interaction, no nothing, just interdict boom, and while I haven't had it happen to me, personally, I can totally understand why that would frustrate, and the problem lies in the fact that you only need a few of these people, to sour the entire PvP experience, they are the aggressor, so they can affect many people, and if they do it enough those people begin to combat log and whatnot because of it. And you know what, if your experience is, some random person is going to randomly interdict you and blow you up, simply because he wants to and can, and likely has a very superior ship against your relatively smaller ship, then yeah, I can't really blame people, because as much as open mode means you want 'everything' to happen, if 'everything' turns into getting blown up by random dude for no reason, well yeah..

And then the arguments that come from the PvP side vs the few that actually dislike PvP, it gets blown up beyond proportions, and suddenly, and I've experienced this myself, people that are fine with PvP get accused of being care bears and whatnot, which is not going to make anyone agree with the those that call themselves PvP'ers.

So yeah, once those two sides get started, those of us in the majority, can try to reason with the sides, but often it just goes bad. And a lot of PvP people come across on the forum as very very aggressive people in general, which doesn't improve people's view on them and it then just spirals out of control, because some people then are put off by those reactions.

The problem isn't just from one side, but multiple, and people really, really don't want to admit that they might be making mistakes.
I was going to post to your other post and point out you seemed rather emotional, but then I saw this, and you know what I can respect that, this happens to everyone, and owning up to it is something rarely seen, well done, now if we can get this to happen more in general we might get somewhere.

This. I have nothing against PvP, as long as it is meaning full PvP. I really don't understand why people get enjoyment out of blowing someones ship up for the lols. These people know that its upsetting for some, so why do it. Do they get some kind of perverse enjoyment of upsetting people, I really do not know.

I have no qualms about being pirated and if I don't comply, then fine I am fair game to get blown up. To me that I understand, that is part of the game and playing a role within the galaxy.

 

[STINKFISH]

I won't cry a tear if and when these sociopaths move on to other games. I'm hoping the other games develop fast enough to satisfy their craving for whatever it is that they need. I can't understand their point of view and you probably can't either. We can, however, understand that they have a need that is beyond our ability to grasp.

I count myself fortunate that I don't get it. You should too. We're the norm in society. Let's embrace that and let them run off to whatever makes them happy.

Attributing real life physiological or physiological disorders/illnesses to gamers who have an aggressive style of game-play in a fantasy world/game advertised as "Cut-Throat", and is a a place to escape the real world - is...... a bit silly...


You see - this is another of the things that is wrong with Elite: Dangerous - Fdev have failed to capitalize on many styles of game-play that are very common in the online sandbox MMO gaming world.

(In my fantasy world - what I think happened is) Fdev was hoodwinked by the Kickstarters/early supporters (who didn't want PvP - and other nice things) - in that their advice to Fdev was to minimalize ingame features like PvP - giving little reward for it as an activity (i.e. push it to CQC - hopping it would stay there, out of game along with all the other so called nasties like gold trading, P2P trading etc..).

And what we now have is a lackluster in-system PvP mechanic - where players of that game style are forced to either fight for proxy A.I. champions, solo pirate vs. combat loggers, go "seal clubbing" - or go out of game to CQC....


What SHOULD of happened = (IDEA): Fdev designed and embraced a more robust PvP in-game system that:

a) channeled "seal clubbers", and seals away from each other
b) developed a functioning policed deterrent in the more lawful systems - relaxing off towards the anarchic systems
c) add bait in the less policed systems in the form of rich unexplored mining opportunities and PvE bounty hunting - to catalyze PvP encounters. Effectively channeling CMDRs to team up, to solve or create their own P2P game content.
d) developed a more detailed, universe wide, player bounty advertisement feature so wanted players could bask in their glory, and develop some real time game lore
e) To protect Explorers: limit dedicated combat ships "system to system range" - implemented by weapons using up jump range, and or ship design doing the same
d) etc.