"What's in it for the trader?" - Dumbest question ever?

[boringnick]

Yeah, I want to start a new thread about this.

Whenever "honest piracy" or something in that vein is discussed, this question always comes up. It's one of the dumbest phrases there is.

"What's in it for the trader?" - HUH? It's like asking why Doom has monsters.

Pirates must exist for the same reasons enemies exist in almost all other games. Every empire trade builder has an enemy empire, enemy economy simulation has an enemy corporation. And even in the 80s ELITE games you had the darn pirates.

So: What's in it for the trader - the game itself is in it! As a trader, you're part of the pirate-trader-bounty hunter food chain, deal with it. It's part of the genre. Without any obstacles, the game falls apart. Of course, a trader should be able to fight back and have protection, but not by blocking pirates outright, but by hiring escorts, flying in safe sectors, able to hire bounty hunters, a better insurance system and so on. Of course, devs need to put real effort into these mechanisms and it would probably fall apart anyway due the P2P architecture anyway. But that's a whole other issue.

I am not a pirate myself, but the phrase makes my blood boil. Same with the whole crime morality play that this forum is full of: "Crime doesn't pay in the real world, why should it here? Pirates are criminals and bla bla bla".. OH MY GOD! People, you're playing a darn video game! If a pirate shoots your pixel ship it's no less of a "crime" than farting.

Pirates are not perpretators and traders aren't victims, but simple opposing teams in a video game. And the traders could actually be more powerful than the pirates (more money for escorts, trade guilds etc) it's just that the game mechanics are incredibly lousy implemented for MMO space trader two years into release.

I could get it if the completely obstacle-free space trading would be truly awesome for some reason (like new incredible sights on exotic planets on every trade run), but it is staring at a mostly black screen for several minutes to get another ship that feels the same as your older one.

Carefully planning trade runs to avoid pirates, hiring other players/NPCs for escorts and so on would be the "WHAT'S IN IT FOR THE TRADER". (ACTUAL GAMEPLAY!) But by blocking piracy, it allows the devs to be lazy and continue to serve the traders the most boring trading game ever: Watching at a black screen without any challenge.

 

[skiboot]

I actually think 2.1 is quite hard on pure traders in respect of Engineers because it's now the only profession which doesn't automatically generate any materials as a part of the normal profession activities.

Miners - generate materials in the course of mining
Bounty Hunters - get materials drops after ship kills
Pirates - demand them instead of/as well as cargo

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I actually think 2.1 is quite hard on pure traders in respect of Engineers because it's now the only profession which doesn't automatically generate any materials as a part of the normal profession activities.

Miners - generate materials in the course of mining
Bounty Hunters - get materials drops after ship kills
Pirates - demand them instead of/as well as cargo

Wrong. Mission boards reward materials.

 

[Tinman]

Wrong. Mission boards reward materials.

Also...traders can scan ships in SC for data just like anyone else.

 

[goemon]

... also, the effect of economic states on profits is very hefty and, more important, very interesting. i'm looking forward to do trading again!

___

@OP i guess, there isn't something like "the trader". i get and got interesting suspension from running trade routes in open... mainly rares in the lave-cluster (piracy looks pretty dead to me around rare hubs), and now during CGs. i also have to say, that the occasions were i wasn't interdicted for cargo, but for being killed (without having a bounty/being lligned to a power...) have been much more during the last 6 month, and from most of them i didn't "get anything" (beside boost - boost - highwake - questionmark). we will see, whether pirates will be as mobile, as traders in 2.1. will be (economic states change a lot).

 

[Bomba Luigi]

There are always enemys for traders, they are called npcs.

You pointing out that what is in it for me is a certain kind of gameplay, you forgett that said gameplay is not something everybody will like. Which is why people who don't like that gameplay don't see whats in it for them, so when pirates ask them to come back to get pirated it is a very good question.
You also call it the most boring gameplay ever and continue to forgett that other people may like other things, also the no challenge thing is debatable, because again: what is challenging and what not can be very diffrent from person to person.

 

[Vorxian]

It's not just trader, it's explorer to, and mining..

It's a fair question to ask.. what is in it for the PvE player being in OPEN...

 

[Phil^]

Also...traders can scan ships in SC for data just like anyone else.

Wouldnt that eat into their profit per ton, per hour figures though if they kept making detours to scan ships?

 

[Tinman]

Wouldnt that eat into their profit per ton, per hour figures though if they kept making detours to scan ships?

Why make detours? Just scan ships that is in front of you while approaching your destination.

 

[boringnick]

You pointing out that what is in it for me is a certain kind of gameplay, you forgett that said gameplay is not something everybody will like. Which is why people who don't like that gameplay don't see whats in it for them, so when pirates ask them to come back to get pirated it is a very good question.
You also call it the most boring gameplay ever and continue to forgett that other people may like other things, also the no challenge thing is debatable, because again: what is challenging and what not can be very diffrent from person to person.

When I play this game, I am mostly a trader myself (the other careers are just as boring at the moment). And I would love to spice it up! I would love to have a trader guild channel where traders could warn each other about which systems are currently the most pirated ones, form convoys with other traders to protect against pirates, being able to transfer money to a bounty hunter guild to clean up a pirate infesteded system to make it safe again for trading, bribe the NPC police to set me on a "high priority" guard list and so on.

Unfortunately, all this gameplay (in-game mechanics and meta) will never develop due the stupid "WHAT'S IN IT FOR THE TRADER" mentality and questionable design choices of the game. I am so pi...ed at the wasted potential due the shorted sighted decisions and attitudes. ARGH.

 

[Codger]

Unless the trader just enjoys the thrill of being robbed at gunpoint, there's nothing in it for them. Some do, though. Most don't.

 

[AJW]

Wanting to play the game in a way designed into it from the start isn't stupid. Trying to force people who have bought the game to play one way into playing another way is though...

 

[Arkantes]

So on one hand you admit the game mechanics are "lousy" for traders (FD, where are the NPC wingmates, proper security response, player bounties, etc?), but on the other hand you say it's still players fault as by not playing by rules heavily biased against them "it allows the devs to be lazy" .

Ok...

 

[Soliluna]

Wanting to play the game in a way designed into it from the start isn't stupid. Trying to force people who have bought the game to play one way into playing another way is though...

Being accosted by pirates, NPC or otherwise definitely part of the game - being forced to play in Open though definitely not part of the game.

I do think what's in it for the trader is the dumbest question ever though so voted yes. Trying to focus on one singular aspect of the game ignoring all the rest is stupid. (From a game design perspective)

 

[boringnick]

So on one hand you admit the game mechanics are "lousy" for traders (FD, where are the NPC wingmates, proper security response, player bounties, etc?), but on the other hand you say it's still players fault as by not playing by rules heavily biased against them "it allows the devs to be lazy" .

Ok...

Well, it's a case of lazy devs and enablers. Chicken - egg problem.

The "what's in it for traders" crowd are like spoiled children. Giving them everything they want (total security) is making the situation only worse, for everyone involved: The boredom sets in fast, because the game is kept in this "watch screen" state with no emergent gameplay and meta (the eternal "one inch deep" problem of this game), the devs in turn are being enabled in their laziness by the crowd and can't be even bothered to implement proper system security - something that was even there in Frontier. (no pirates in Sol, mass piracy in Phekda).

I don't think this will ever be fixed. Even meaningful piracy gets blocked by the bratty children with their "WAH WAH", this in turn blocks emergent gameplay for the trader side (trading channels, trade convoys etc.), yet FDEV in turn hasn't the resources to add interesting NPC only gameplay and assets.

Forum gaming makes more fun than the game. For a reason.

 

[777Driver]

Well, it's a case of lazy devs and enablers. Chicken - egg problem.

The "what's in it for traders" crowd are like spoiled children. Giving them everything they want (total security) is making the situation only worse, for everyone involved: The boredom sets in fast, because the game is kept in this "watch screen" state with no emergent gameplay and meta (the eternal "one inch deep" problem of this game), the devs in turn are being enabled in their laziness by the crowd and can't be even bothered to implement proper system security - something that was even there in Frontier. (no pirates in Sol, mass piracy in Phekda).

I don't think this will ever be fixed.

Are you actually part of this Beta?

 

[Lheim]

You miss the point of the question.

Whatever gameplay there is, there has to be a reason for everybody on either side to hang around to engage in it. There's currently no "reason" for a trader to hang around; the experience isn't even fun. He has zero chance to fight back against a determined pirate. He might as well log in to a game that has him tied to a post, for other players to hurtle digital feces at him. It'd be just about as exciting.

Fundamentally, any pvp scenario depends on both participants presuming they have a chance for it to be maximally enjoyable. And that is what the complaint is about; it's all negatives for one party and all positives for the other. So why would anybody submit to being tied to that post to have stuff flung at them?

 

[WeirdWizard]

Um "what's in it for the trader?" is not a yes or no question.

I voted no. Not that I know what I was voting for but it seemed like the second most sensible response. The first being no response at all but I was feeling chatty.

 

[Robert Maynard]

What is the question in the OP to which a yes/no response is appropriate?

 

[777Driver]

You miss the point of the question.

Whatever gameplay there is, there has to be a reason for everybody on either side to hang around to engage in it. There's currently no "reason" for a trader to hang around; the experience isn't even fun. He has zero chance to fight back against a determined pirate. He might as well log in to a game that has him tied to a post, for other players to hurtle digital feces at him. It'd be just about as exciting.

Fundamentally, any pvp scenario depends on both participants presuming they have a chance for it to be maximally enjoyable. And that is what the complaint is about; it's all negatives for one party and all positives for the other. So why would anybody submit to being tied to that post to have stuff flung at them?

Do you actually trade or do bulk haul running in Open? The current gameplay gives us two choices..

Fly in solo against NPC's, current beta build means high security systems are very safe, authority response times are fast within the shipping lanes. Lower security areas are more dangerous. Either way you are fine with a properly configured freighter 1v1 against any NPC.

Fly in Open - Actually experiencing a challenge, learn to emergency drop or fly wide arcs on those rare occasions that a human pirate is hunting you. High waking when the odds are against you and outsmarting your opponent, even fighting back in a lumbering freighter and destroying an inexperienced cmdr that has underestimated you.... If it all goes wrong you can still take away experience for next time.

I've spent nearly two years bulk hauling in open, it hasn't been a negative for me in any shape or form.