When can we actually expect some real gameplay content?

[Privata]

Wait. The fact that once you were nearly killed by the make & type of NPCs in an otherwise entirely predictable, rinse & repeat type of things counts as 'surprise'? That's setting the bar very low. USS is a terrible attempt at adding 'content' to the galaxy simply because of the limitations imposed upon the game by instancing and lack of other player-NPC interaction elements sans interdiction.


Here's the rub. Your pirates that took over a federal capital ship didn't take over anything. There's no backdrop event in the particular system to that, there's no further consequence to that. All that changed in that particular random-generated out of context event, ie an USS, was a line of text for two. That's it. You've just described the mediocrity of the whole concept: Once inside an USS, there's no rhyme or reason as to the why, where, and how. This extends to a lot of other things, too- look at the madness of resource extraction sites, which are nothing but NPC bounty hunting grounds.
The overall delivery toolset to add flavour to an empty galaxy is deeply flawed.



USS still are a placeholder with a limited number of scenarios, two years in. The problem with the USS vehicle is not so much what's inside of them, the problem is more with how they're delivered, so to speak.

The USS concept is a fine example of the placeholder mentality that was brought up in an earlier thread. The idea was poor but needed at launch, to provide at least some hint of interaction with the wider universe per se. By now, the concept of events in space should have evolved. Not the labeling of events with repetitive concept. Would 'Alien Signal Source' (I dont want to acronym this, heh) with Thargoids in them be acceptable? Is that how 'content' should be delivered, by things that spawn around you if you just sit tight for a while and watch them pop up? It's poor.

And all that is my issue with the system.

I think I have been outspoken about how much I dont like the USSs and even less so the POIs.

But there is nothing I can do about it now. I hope they do something about it , but I cant make them do it and its not my place to try anyway.

I still have faith in them and I will wait and see.
But I do want the system to change. I think its one of the worst parts of elite.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Indeed, deep emergent gameplay is only possible when players are empowered with TOOLS to do it in a sandbox...

Like I said earlier... a sandbox with a little sand is a superficial gaming experience.

A deep sandbox has 1. chatrooms. 2. guilds. 3. base building 4. some form of management 5. territory control.

Eve Online has the deepest sandbox of any space sim and that has kept it alive for over 13 years.

Sorry but none of those features make a game a sandbox. This is a definition of a sandbox:-
A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish.

Which is exactly what we have. Could the sand be better and more compelling, sure. But adding guilds, chat rooms, base building, management doesn't make a sandbox. We already have territory control in PowerPlay (yes this needs to be better with more powers as well) and to a minor degree faction play. For me all guilds do is restrict the sandbox as you end being forced into being a member of one, as it ends up being the main gameplay. No thanks.

 

[Blackcompany]

I think the game you're looking for is EVE

As long as people here defend the grind and say that this is actual content and you have to make your own content, nothing will change.

And all that is my issue with the system.

I think I have been outspoken about how much I dont like the USSs and even less so the POIs.

But there is nothing I can do about it now. I hope they do something about it , but I cant make them do it and its not my place to try anyway.

I still have faith in them and I will wait and see.
But I do want the system to change. I think its one of the worst parts of elite.

I just wish someone would make a space he with a flight model this good, in a truly seamless universe. No load screen between space and planets, etc.

Would have loved an offline version without all of the co.promises that drag Elite down.

 

[Privata]

I just wish someone would make a space he with a flight model this good, in a truly seamless universe. No load screen between space and planets, etc.

Would have loved an offline version without all of the co.promises that drag Elite down.

I understand and agree.

I hope elite will become that , but if it does not someone else will.
Competition is needed. and NMS failed on that front.

I do hope for an epic arms race between SC and ED because that is only good for the customer and the industry

 

[DefiledDragon]

Just compare a map of elite in 3301 to today in 3302 its just not the same.

The only reason the galaxy map looks different is because the developers made it different. If they had stepped away from the game and just left it to the players on release day, the galaxy would look exactly like it did on release day. The players aren't changing anything. All that happens is the devs say "If you ship x tons of whatever to y by z then we'll add another station" or some such. That's not players reshaping the galaxy at all, it's as artificial and meaningless as the NPC ships awaiting the arrival of the player before they exist, or do anything. It's all just smoke and mirrors, but the smoke is completely transparent and the mirrors don't reflect anything.

 

[Cosmo]

The only reason the galaxy map looks different is because the developers made it different. If they had stepped away from the game and just left it to the players on release day, the galaxy would look exactly like it did on release day. The players aren't changing anything. All that happens is the devs say "If you ship x tons of whatever to y by z then we'll add another station" or some such. That's not players reshaping the galaxy at all, it's as artificial and meaningless as the NPC ships awaiting the arrival of the player before they exist, or do anything. It's all just smoke and mirrors, but the smoke is completely transparent and the mirrors don't reflect anything.

The map does change based on player activity, but the developers have to manually update the data with server updates. PowerPlay is convoluted and doesn't empower players to manage their own guilds.

 

[Privata]

The only reason the galaxy map looks different is because the developers made it different. If they had stepped away from the game and just left it to the players on release day, the galaxy would look exactly like it did on release day. The players aren't changing anything. All that happens is the devs say "If you ship x tons of whatever to y by z then we'll add another station" or some such. That's not players reshaping the galaxy at all, it's as artificial and meaningless as the NPC ships awaiting the arrival of the player before they exist, or do anything. It's all just smoke and mirrors, but the smoke is completely transparent and the mirrors don't reflect anything.

Thats not true. I have flipped many systems in an organised maner with friends.
And many more have done even more impresive things.

The BGS in elite works , the NPC generation is bad IMHO but the BGS itself is great (for the most part) factions come in and out of power. they expand rise and fall. its true that a faction can never die 100% but they can fall back so much that they only are present in one system and own nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

The map does change based on player activity, but the developers have to manually update the data with server updates. PowerPlay is also quite convoluted and doesn't empower players to manage their own guilds.

Powerplay is a ''war'' for influence. its a wierd system.

So the idea is that we pledge to powerfull men and women who try and spread ideas , ethos and ways of life not only within official space but in others space as well.

Its like how in the UK or in france we have lots of stuff about the US. in france at least in my area they talk more about US politics than french (and not just around this time of year but nearly all year) they talk about more US culture than french. that is what powerplay would be in real life. just this is on a galactic scale and involves covert murder and shady buisness.

It does help the BGS in my case , for example I serve the alliance , systems that mahon has influence over fall faster into alliance control than any other faction.

All that being said , I think powerplay needed more time and should have been pushed back.

The recent changes to it are a step in the right direction , but more is needed I think

 

[VR Golgot]

The only reason the galaxy map looks different is because the developers made it different. If they had stepped away from the game and just left it to the players on release day, the galaxy would look exactly like it did on release day. The players aren't changing anything. All that happens is the devs say "If you ship x tons of whatever to y by z then we'll add another station" or some such. That's not players reshaping the galaxy at all, it's as artificial and meaningless as the NPC ships awaiting the arrival of the player before they exist, or do anything. It's all just smoke and mirrors, but the smoke is completely transparent and the mirrors don't reflect anything.

Behold some mighty charts that say you're wrong on that (and also kinda right )

So the main factions are holding true, but "38% of starsystems are no longer controlled by their default faction". The dev here says these changes reflect player activity and the simulation allowing for change.

Where you're right is that: Those changes don't really feel that impactful (unless you're an outright enemy of a faction that takes over your home system I guess). There's no real sea change associated with these shifts. (Dav did hint that more cosmetic changes will come in future to reflect allegiance shifts, which would be good, but what's really needed is more profound behaviourial variance driven by factions, political systems and local states, to give locations a form of emergent individuality. That would make successful and failed takeovers feel a lot more important).

 

[Ignition]

For me the lack of complexity in the mechanics killed the game for me very very fast.

I don't care about the BGS if the mechanics are boring and simplistic as they are. You can modify the BGS by doing the same tasks and all of them are completely dull and stupid. It looks like they designed the gameplay around consoles to make it easier to play and I feel the gameplay so shallow.

The game is a cluster of disconnected mechanics and placeholders. Why bother to visit 1000 systms and planets or do 10 conflict zones when I don't have gamplay mechanics to play with, I don't have any excuse to play, I don't feel I'm on a spaceship with sensors, equiepments, systems to use. I feel I'm playing an arcady game with simplistic and short shallow mechanics.

 

[Maverick and Goose]

I think the game you're looking for is EVE

No. He may be looking for the same thing as me and possibly others: a deep multiplayer game like eve that ISNT point and click.

 

[Tarman]

No. He may be looking for the same thing as me and possibly others: a deep multiplayer game like eve that ISNT point and click.

Then you need to give Elite the same dev time; EVE's been out the gate for a decade+. Also, EVE sucked the proverbial equine beast of burden when it first started, even if many players think it's cat's mammaries now. It was just simply ungood at the beginning and has had to work to get to its place.

 

[Blackcompany]

No. He may be looking for the same thing as me and possibly others: a deep multiplayer game like eve that ISNT point and click.

First, good point. Very good. And two years is more than enough time to add some depth, some consequences.

Second...Nice avatar and name. Love it.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Behold some mighty charts that say you're wrong on that (and also kinda right )

So the main factions are holding true, but "38% of starsystems are no longer controlled by their default faction". The dev here says these changes reflect player activity and the simulation allowing for change.

Where you're right is that: Those changes don't really feel that impactful (unless you're an outright enemy of a faction that takes over your home system I guess). There's no real sea change associated with these shifts. (Dav did hint that more cosmetic changes will come in future to reflect allegiance shifts, which would be good, but what's really needed is more profound behaviourial variance driven by factions, political systems and local states, to give locations a form of emergent individuality. That would make successful and failed takeovers feel a lot more important).

When I said the Galaxy map would look identical I was more referring to the physical presence of humanity throughout the Galaxy rather than the political landscape. Jaques station for example wouldn't exist if it weren't for the devs. Nothing the players did put that station there, it was all done by hand, by the devs. Sure the devs involve players by setting up CG's, but in reality the players are just trying to hit arbitrary targets set by the developers rather than actually making a difference.

I also find it strange that the many, many people on these forums who object to handcrafted content and things of that nature all wet their knickers with excitement whenever the devs handcraft some content or show us a cutscene. This hypocrisy is in complete balance with the hypocrisy of the game itself when it talks about shaping the Galaxy and carving out your legend and so on.

At times this forum feels like an insane asylum. People rail so hard against certain mechanics present in other games and yet when those mechanics find their way into ED they're suddenly the best things ever and those same people are all cheering and slapping each other on the back. It's bizarre to the point of becoming surreal.

 

[Blackcompany]

When I said the Galaxy map would look identical I was more referring to the physical presence of humanity throughout the Galaxy rather than the political landscape. Jaques station for example wouldn't exist if it weren't for the devs. Nothing the players did put that station there, it was all done by hand, by the devs. Sure the devs involve players by setting up CG's, but in reality the players are just trying to hit arbitrary targets set by the developers rather than actually making a difference.

I also find it strange that the many, many people on these forums who object to handcrafted content and things of that nature all wet their knickers with excitement whenever the devs handcraft some content or show us a cutscene. This hypocrisy is in complete balance with the hypocrisy of the game itself when it talks about shaping the Galaxy and carving out your legend and so on.

At times this forum feels like an insane asylum. People rail so hard against certain mechanics present in other games and yet when those mechanics find their way into ED they're suddenly the best things ever and those same people are all cheering and slapping each other on the back. It's bizarre to the point of becoming surreal.

Once again, absolutely nailed it. Brilliant post.

I never understood the alien encounter excitement. In fact, I found it INCREDIBLY contrived and disappointing. It was a scripted cut scene.

No one found the aliens. Nothing a ayer did "discovered" them. Or their ruins. The devs just picked am arbitrary time and scripted it - to the point of actually TAKING AWAY player input the while.

And every change is less this: we change, what FDev SAY we change. Nothing more.

If Eve had this flight model I would uninstall Elite tonight.

 

[Badben]

One of the arguments I see here often is "there are many other games in the web that offer the kind of content you want, ED is supposed to be a different type of game". Or "go play EVE". But actually that's not true at all, there are actually 0 other games that offer the kind of content I want. There are no other games like ED, EVE doesn't even come close. No Man's Sky was hopeful, but ultimately flopped, I don't know what to think of Star Citizen, I hope it's great, but for some reason, I'm doubtful, and, well, it's still not really released yet, is it?

Back to my point, The space sim genre is super niche already, attracting a small, but dedicated community of players, ED is special for those who play it, there's isn't another game like it. But many of us who love it, still feel it's lacking real core gameplay elements, things that make your presence feel a little more permanent. We love the core of the game, piloting a space ship, but aren't super excited for repeating the same action 300 times in a row, just for a few bars to raise.

Minor Factions are a good start, but they're missing something that ties you to the faction. Becoming allied with any one faction feels a little empty, I often get allied to factions completely by accident, by trading a lot in their station, or fighting in their CZ. If I specifically ally myself to a faction because I want to RP as a faction member, all I can do is get allied with them, no differently than the dozens of other factions I'm allied with. If I push that minor faction to power, there's no way for me to know if anyone else is also pushing that faction, or maybe against my faction, or any way to communicate with them.

I think simply allowing us to pledge to one minor faction, and for that to be displayed to other CMDRs would go a long way to making it feel a little more like we matter. Bonus would be some way to communicate to others pledged to your faction, maybe with a message board, and best would be some way to influence a factions actions with a vote of pledged members. I think this would get a lot more people interested in the BGS side of the game, which is actually pretty impressive, just lacking meaning for people to be interested in my opinion.

 

[DefiledDragon]

One of the arguments I see here often is "there are many other games in the web that offer the kind of content you want, ED is supposed to be a different type of game". Or "go play EVE". But actually that's not true at all, there are actually 0 other games that offer the kind of content I want. There are no other games like ED, EVE doesn't even come close. No Man's Sky was hopeful, but ultimately flopped, I don't know what to think of Star Citizen, I hope it's great, but for some reason, I'm doubtful, and, well, it's still not really released yet, is it?

Back to my point, The space sim genre is super niche already, attracting a small, but dedicated community of players, ED is special for those who play it, there's isn't another game like it. But many of us who love it, still feel it's lacking real core gameplay elements, things that make your presence feel a little more permanent. We love the core of the game, piloting a space ship, but aren't super excited for repeating the same action 300 times in a row, just for a few bars to raise.

Minor Factions are a good start, but they're missing something that ties you to the faction. Becoming allied with any one faction feels a little empty, I often get allied to factions completely by accident, by trading a lot in their station, or fighting in their CZ. If I specifically ally myself to a faction because I want to RP as a faction member, all I can do is get allied with them, no differently than the dozens of other factions I'm allied with. If I push that minor faction to power, there's no way for me to know if anyone else is also pushing that faction, or maybe against my faction, or any way to communicate with them.

I think simply allowing us to pledge to one minor faction, and for that to be displayed to other CMDRs would go a long way to making it feel a little more like we matter. Bonus would be some way to communicate to others pledged to your faction, maybe with a message board, and best would be some way to influence a factions actions with a vote of pledged members. I think this would get a lot more people interested in the BGS side of the game, which is actually pretty impressive, just lacking meaning for people to be interested in my opinion.

So basically an NPC run corporation, like the starter corporations in EVE?

 

[Luponator]

Then you need to give Elite the same dev time; EVE's been out the gate for a decade+. Also, EVE sucked the proverbial equine beast of burden when it first started, even if many players think it's cat's mammaries now. It was just simply ungood at the beginning and has had to work to get to its place.

This is fair. I guess that's why there's players asking for additional things instead of throwing their hands up and shouting Doom, Doom, all lost. Ok there's those, too, but you get the drift.
The problem is that there are already a lot of things that could just be picked and implemented, conceptually, as other games had their learning experience already. And it looks like none of the underlying issues are being addressed in favour of window dressing. 2 years of improvement are not the same as 2 years of placeholder addition.

The BGS is a great tool. It could add so much more to the gameplay and is badly underused. Maybe the biggest, baddest, most glorious feature of the game is not at it's core.

 

[Cmdr Hobgoblin]

Background Simulation sucks. Plain and simple. We need to be able to take matters into our own hands, be the founder of a faction and get our own Star Systems and defend it.
I am not willing to let some Simulation run what I can do myself. "Create your own Story" only works when you have something to gain and something to lose.
Neither is the case in Elite. Stop all this "you don't matter" nonsense. We Commanders are the best Pilots in the Universe, we do matter a lot.
Because nothing happens without us. And the Galaxy would not exist without us.

 

[Devlin-Darkside]

As long as people here defend the grind and say that this is actual content and you have to make your own content, nothing will change.

This is a huge problem here and one of the reasons I stopped posting on these forums, people always get hammered by the fanatics.

It's advertised as an MMO but the game does a good job of keeping people separate with very little interaction.

I love the idea of ED, it's a beautiful game and I played it non stop for 6 months or more, it got old pretty quickly. I still read the forums weekly in the hope that things will change but things happen so slowly in ED. It's a shame because as people leave ED for better games Frontier's income drops and this slows down development even more.

For me ED is a single player game that I hoped was going to become an MMO, it hasn't, and I don't think Frontier will ever have the money to make it so.

(edit) I have just revisited the ED website and can no longer find the reference to the game being an MMO but I can most certainly remember it being there at some point. Probably a good job they changed it as it was bordering on false advertising. This also indicates the chosen direction of development i.e not down the MMO path.

 

[Lobstris]

Again, all these people saying 'the map never changes', 'the NPCs have no reason to be there', 'it's all smoke and mirrors' etc. etc. Well yes, it can't be anything otherwise. The game map is too large for changes to be meaningful, the scope of the galactic economy too large for player crafting or whatever to have much effect, so it's just abstract, the number of NPCs actually needed to make the galaxy feel alive too vast to contemplate, and it's all underpinned by a multiplayer networking system that seems to resist any real forms of persistence except at the large scale, and a universe where many actual interactions can be skipped by a mode switch.

But none of that should matter in a game that was (and is) primarily about piloting a ship in space, mostly alone, but occasionally with or against small groups of others. Unfortunately, it's also the minute-to-minute gameplay of piloting the ship that's also lacking. I do get the impression that the bubble should really have been a few hundred systems, with lots of hand-crafted objects, an in-depth economy, a few hundred NPC factions to fight for/with/against, and a server tracking a few million persistent NPCs that could be dropped into instances - leaving the rest of the galaxy for explorers. (Hang on, that sounds like...)

As an alternative to 'players should have control of factions', I'd rather a more in-depth background sim with NPC characters - a la Crusader Kings II, drove the background and political element of the game, leaving players to fly their ships, exploiting the varying political and economic landscape for profit.