When is the Issue Tracker going to be looked at?

[Vetinari]

Of course, if folk, rather than making up their own issue boosted up an already existing one of the same thing with a "me too" they might actually be able to get to a specific issue rather than have to wade through loads of chaff, guff and bluster. (Sorry, instilled into me by my career choice)

In my limited experience of the IT not once has it found the issue while searching and then after submitting it shows 2-3 that are the same issue that I could have just upvoted. TBH I now just follow links off the forum and upvote them when relevant just to keep the duplication down.....and the knowledge that mine wont get found by others either if they search for it anyway so it seems pointless.

so the logical solution is apparently to have a forum post that tracks issues and links to them so at least we all upvote the same one and know if its been previously submitted.....hence how I found this, through Alec's Best of the Forum thread. Someone give that man a unique decal for his service to the Community.

 

[Nadreck]

While I can see that "fix lagginess!" might be easier said than done, some persistent bugs are easily checked and probably would be straightforward to fix.

How difficult would it be to stop Cutters and Clippers getting stuck when auto-docking at asteroid bases? Just move the ship slightly to the left or make the mailslot slightly wider. They don't have this problem at regular stations, so clearly the problem isn't unfixable.

Same with the Clipper's intermittent dashboard whiteout problem. I gather that only happens with some graphics cards, but as it only happens with one ship, it should be possible to avoid whatever is triggering it.

Why do issues like this "expire"? They don't just go away.

 

[Bottom Hat]

The bug tracker blows more than some cheap ...... do in the red light zone. It really is awful, so I fully support this thread Ozric. I don't even bother with it quite frankly as it is rotten.


And the dotted word, in case of curiosity, is "wrongly-wired vacuum cleaners" - you can tell because the number of dots matches. Why, what were you lot thinking?

 

[Ozric]

I think the people that need to read this forum and be on it responding to certain things should be the decision makers ...who have the authority to give real answers and are directly responsible for why xyz is done like it is or takes as long as it does or why priorities are the way they are.

Given that they haven't said anything about that in the last 6 years, anywhere, then the forum is going to be the last place those people are likely to come and start. But this thread is about the issue tracker and trying to get to a place where people feel engaged enough to report bugs, especially for Odyssey.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

A plus one from me for this quest. Like others I've given up on the bug tracker, having started off fairly optimistic that this would be a democratic way of proiritising bugs, I'm now so cynically jaded and convinced it's just a means to stifle bug reports, that I treat it with such disdain that the odd time I do go to it, as I battle with the god awful captcha that makes it harder to log a bug than it is to hack the kremlin, I find my self wondering "What the frack am I doing with my time here? I mean it's not like this is going to make a difference."

However, why don't we get all meta on it? Here's a but tracker report for y'all to confirm, reporting the bug tracker is ignored and the majority of bug reports are squashed as expired or duplicates. issue# 22860

webapp

issues.frontierstore.net

 

[Darth Ender]

well, no matter what solution you think is an improvement on the current one. If you dont have people actively resolving them at a rate that somewhat keeps up with the generation of them, you'll get the same situation you have now.

In which case what you really want is a way to make your pet bug more of a priority than the others in the hope that it's one of the few that actually get resolved.

 

[Ozric]

well, no matter what solution you think is an improvement on the current one. If you dont have people actively resolving them at a rate that somewhat keeps up with the generation of them, you'll get the same situation you have now.

In which case what you really want is a way to make your pet bug more of a priority than the others in the hope that it's one of the few that actually get resolved.

No, that's what we have at the moment. A system that can be abused by those who can get enough people behind them to vote up issues.

Issues don't necessarily have to be resolved, the main thing that needs to be improved is presentation and communication (which you kind of alluded to earlier). It's very hard to see what issues have been created especially when the search function doesn't work properly, as already has been mentioned here, but also as I mentioned the feedback you get on issues too.

This was something that was a lot better when we had the bug reporting forum, because there were more eyes on the reports for a start. People would direct others to the correct threads if they'd started making duplicates, there was a dialogue with QA too because we had a few members who had as part of their job to look through and discuss with the forum. I don't expect us to go back to using the forums, I'd like to hope we will get dedicated communication back though.

 

[Sublime]

No, that's what we have at the moment. A system that can be abused by those who can get enough people behind them to vote up issues.

Issues don't necessarily have to be resolved, the main thing that needs to be improved is presentation and communication (which you kind of alluded to earlier). It's very hard to see what issues have been created especially when the search function doesn't work properly, as already has been mentioned here, but also as I mentioned the feedback you get on issues too.

This was something that was a lot better when we had the bug reporting forum, because there were more eyes on the reports for a start. People would direct others to the correct threads if they'd started making duplicates, there was a dialogue with QA too because we had a few members who had as part of their job to look through and discuss with the forum. I don't expect us to go back to using the forums, I'd like to hope we will get dedicated communication back though.

Probably why that stopped. They are clearly much easier to sweep under the rug with the current system. It even has an auto-close/expire feature in place.

 

[Speedcuffs]

This was something that was a lot better when we had the bug reporting forum, because there were more eyes on the reports for a start. People would direct others to the correct threads if they'd started making duplicates, there was a dialogue with QA too because we had a few members who had as part of their job to look through and discuss with the forum. I don't expect us to go back to using the forums, I'd like to hope we will get dedicated communication back though.

Yes. People could also jump in and help out when things weren't actually bugs but misunderstandings on the part of players. I see the issue tracker full of these now.
Sadly I don't use it anymore. The search function and UI is... disappointing.

Can't be bothered.

 

[Darth Ender]

No, that's what we have at the moment. A system that can be abused by those who can get enough people behind them to vote up issues.

I thought everyone was complaining that the current system doesn't find existing issues and so you create new tickets which consequently dont get the "votes" to be "confirmed".

you're saying now that this isn't the case, that it's being exploited to push some issues up. So which is it? You can't have both things being true.

Seems to me that the ticket system is much less visible to users, requires more effort to use ...and thus much less likely to be abused than something like a forum with high visibility and low barrier of entry.

Issues don't necessarily have to be resolved, the main thing that needs to be improved is presentation and communication (which you kind of alluded to earlier). It's very hard to see what issues have been created especially when the search function doesn't work properly, as already has been mentioned here, but also as I mentioned the feedback you get on issues too.

So is it abusable or too hard to find stuff to push up "vote up" ? You understand how your own statements are contradictory right?

Issues have to be resolved at a decent rate compared to actual new issues being added or you enter the same defacto lottery of issues that get resolved out of the pool of issues people have.

The only difference you really are asking for is a response by fdev that "We dont care right now" or "We're working on this" so that people reporting issues dont think nobody is looking at the issue at all. And while that's better than the current way it's done, i dont think it's going to be sufficient to make players less turned off by the whole bug reporting process. It could even have the opposite effect because for every person who creates a bug report that gets auto-shut down and they feel like it was effort wasted, there is someone who posts a bug and thinks it did or is getting fdev's attention ..even if it isn't. A transparent system falling behind in resolution:submission would tell them with certainty that nobody cares about the effort they took to report the bug they did.
(basically the idea that we dont know what % of bugs reported get resolved currently, but if we did due to a more transparent system in place, it would be even more depressing than the current system)

 

[Dutchman141]

The bug tracker blows more than some cheap ...... do in the red light zone. It really is awful, so I fully support this thread Ozric. I don't even bother with it quite frankly as it is rotten.


And the dotted word, in case of curiosity, is "wrongly-wired vacuum cleaners" - you can tell because the number of dots matches. Why, what were you lot thinking?

It's not only the bug tracker that blows, imho the whole bug fixing blows big time.
The frequency of fixes that are released is laughable at best, only during or shortly after a major update are bug fixes released containing some of the most recent bugs, the rest is simply ignored, for years.
It's ridiculous if you think of it.

We had a whole season, without any major additions, focused on improving the base game and fix problems, look what that brought in the end, there's still a huge list of bugs, glitches and so forth and the pile is still stacking with each update.
The non existent quality controll by Fdev is one of my main gripes.

 

[Darth Ender]

In case it's not obvious, i dont think an issue forum is the right step. This forum is full of people who dont need to be listened to and shouldn't have their noise lowering the SNR.

Fixing the search thing is a separate issue, it has less to do with being off-forum and having to jump thru hoops to improve signal over the noise of easier to use systems.

Really I'd be in favor of this:

every week the bugfix team picks a new set of bugs based on the current submissions that they've identified as real prioritized by age, perceived impact, and what they feel like working on that week. They then fix those in the following week and make a release. Then repeat the process. over and over every single week. Sometimes just 1 bug is fixed. Sometimes a handful. The patch notes list out the bug tickets resolved. No new features are rolled in with these releases, ever.

The team working on new features and next major releases merge in those updates into their own fork if they're still applicable.

Submissions still happen the same way as they currently do, just with a corrected search feature.

That's all i think is needed to improve the situation with issue tracker fatigue.

 

[Ozric]

I thought everyone was complaining that the current system doesn't find existing issues and so you create new tickets which consequently dont get the "votes" to be "confirmed".

you're saying now that this isn't the case, that it's being exploited to push some issues up. So which is it? You can't have both things being true.

Yes you can

So is it abusable or too hard to find stuff to push up "vote up" ? You understand how your own statements are contradictory right?

No they're not.

The only difference you really are asking for is a response by fdev that "We dont care right now" or "We're working on this" so that people reporting issues dont think nobody is looking at the issue at all. And while that's better than the current way it's done, i dont think it's going to be sufficient to make players less turned off by the whole bug reporting process. It could even have the opposite effect because for every person who creates a bug report that gets auto-shut down and they feel like it was effort wasted, there is someone who posts a bug and thinks it did or is getting fdev's attention ..even if it isn't. A transparent system falling behind in resolution:submission would tell them with certainty that nobody cares about the effort they took to report the bug they did.
(basically the idea that we dont know what % of bugs reported get resolved currently, but if we did due to a more transparent system in place, it would be even more depressing than the current system)

You either did not read the OP, have not used the current tracker and didn't used to use the bug forum. Or it's deliberate.

The basic version. When the issue tracker was introduced we were told that the voting system was only in place to act as a marker for FD to see which bugs the community have highlighted. Later we were told that the only way bugs were going to get fixed were if they get enough votes.

This opens the system up to abuse from people like those who have large youtube channels or podcasts who can mobilise a lot of people to vote up an issue that they determine needs to be fixed the most.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Just ran into the "Hyperspace Dethrottle Engaged ---- JUST KIDDING! We're taking you full throttle into a blazing star!!!!!!!!!!" bug. I wonder how long that one has been on the tracker lol

 

[Spacerschoice-00]

I just wanted to add my voice to this plea. I'm usually a very conscientious and patient person and I've spent years telling people that (like it or loathe it) it's important we report issues using the tracker because that's the only way they have a hope of getting fixed (i.e. neither A: simply waiting in the vain hope that Frontier will surely spot and fix the issue themselves, or B: complaining about it on the forum loudly enough to rally a mob, are the proper way to go about getting things noticed and fixed).

This is no longer true tho.

I think what finally broke me was the automatic EXPIRY of issues I'd spent a lot of time either reporting or contributing to, issues which were unequivocally bugs, easily repeatable by any dev' with a desire to check.

For example:

These are separate reports, both expired, on a bug which still exists in the game right now and is easy to confirm.

Frankly that EXPIRED is just a brutal slap in the face.

After the 4th or 5th such expiry I'm afraid I finally gave up.

My current attitude is that there's almost no point reporting bugs. Frontier may spot and fix the odd thing that's either very serious or affects credits (sad but true) but otherwise I've currently come to terms with the fact that I just have to live with all the many many little bugs that I spot in this game.

That seems like a pretty damn sad situation to me.

Re mission scan jobs: That may be by design. Those always jump, various distances. Depending on planet and entry approach. Planet size has impact on jump distance that happens. Been doing that since Horizon released. Or has it been confirmed on how those behave?

@Ozric re: Thargoid structures. You sure that's a bug? Possibly changed on purpose?

 

[Speedcuffs]

That may be by design.

Possibly changed on purpose?

And this is the problem that Alec is highlighting.

 

[Darth Ender]

Yes you can


No they're not.

They are because if the reason why these other issues fall off and dont get the votes they otherwise would have is because they're hard to find then the same would be true for anyone trying to artificially bloat numbers.

The idea that there are armies of youtube fans confirming pet bugs there at the detriment of others just doesn't make any sense. Their "followers" would have to jump thru all the same hoops to sign up and post a confirmation as anyone else with an issue and if they'd be willing to do all that because someone on youtube told them to, they'd do it for issues they themselves are having and have actually confirmed as a bug as well.

So in that sense, i dont see how the youtube following bug reporters are abusing anything. Unless your opinion is that the bug they're confirming doesn't exist and doesn't impact all those people who felt the urge to confirm it after watching the video.

If it didn't impact them...not sure why they would go thru the trouble of reporting confirmation of the bug.

You either did not read the OP, have not used the current tracker and didn't used to use the bug forum. Or it's deliberate.

The basic version. When the issue tracker was introduced we were told that the voting system was only in place to act as a marker for FD to see which bugs the community have highlighted. Later we were told that the only way bugs were going to get fixed were if they get enough votes.

This opens the system up to abuse from people like those who have large youtube channels or podcasts who can mobilise a lot of people to vote up an issue that they determine needs to be fixed the most.

if youtube does drive falsified reporting of confirmations or disproportionately represents the impact of bugs...then fine, it's something to be concerned with, but moving it to a forum wouldn't stop that. It would just raise the noise floor.

Plus, i dont think you've shown that this spamming actually results in corrected bugs. I thought we were all under the impression that Fdev doesn't care about reported bugs (confirmed or not) ...just how much bad publicity a bug is getting on social media (youtube included) to the point that it starts trending enough to get on their radar.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I would be very surprised if that wasn't just a nice facade used to gather information from players, and they are using something "normal" like Atlassian JIRA or ServiceDesk underneath. It probably isn't even linked with the real internal bug tracker and most probably support is tasked with gathering the most "contentious" issues from the web app and creating real tickets in appropriate queues. And usually the way it happens is that support creates a ticket in development queue ASKING if this can be looked upon.

No organisation I know would put resources into creating their own bug/ticket trackers when even free solutions exist, like Bugzilla. I think the current "issue tracker" was a thing to placate users after "open letter", or was an idea that for some reason didn't work as planned and it has been left to rot.

As for the deletion of over a thousand issues - it might as well be a part of internal housekeeping. For example these issues could be duplicates of others - as was mentioned in the discussion. It could also be labelled "fixed in Odyssey" internally - who knows. Or, it could be the worst kind - "requires core engine refactoring" which is simply being closed because it's unfixable currently.

All in all I wouldn't look much into this issue tracker. Unless we start getting regular, proper bug updates worthy of a team of 100 peps working on the product. I cannot shake the feeling/hope that the current version of the game is abandonware at this point and they have newer, shiner engine prepared to accommodate Odyssey.

 

[Spacerschoice-00]

And this is the problem that Alec is highlighting.

So after reading this comment, and rereading the posts.
It's wanting them to use the tags in the system, instead of just letting them expire? ( is that correct assessment?)

 

[Darth Ender]

if search worked, that eliminates the need for a different system. The OP is not going to stop social media in organizing players and those players would be the submitters in any bug system - regardless of the type.

The real problem is that only a fraction of submitted bugs are ever fixed in a long time period. Fixing that removes the "abuse" impact concern. Again, regardless of how bugs are submitted or organized.