General / Off-Topic Who _isn't_ a literal forum dad?

[Morbad]

Generally speaking, your ingame analysis have been firmly planted in logic and reason, whereas embracing gender fluidity seems like a fundamentally illogical position, for instance.

I don't find anything more or less illogical about embracing gender fluidity than I do about assigning gender at all.

While biological sex (which isn't exclusively binary itself...intersex conditions being far more common than most assume) certainly comes with a small number of virtual imperatives, and a whole slew of more vague tendencies, gender is a subjective social construct.

Most of my in-game analyses are based on more objective things. In similar real-world situations, such as the fastest way to disable or destroy a person, I'm equally objective. Gender doesn't enter into that either, unless I have cause to believe one's own subjective gender role has caused them to neglect combat experience or physical fitness to such an extent that I'd find it easier to destroy their central nervous system, or cause an incapacitating loss of blood pressure, than their physical size would indicate.

 

[starman]

How many have spouses that also play elite? I know it's a non-zero, since I am aware of a few husband-wife, and wife-wife pairs, but do we know if it's a majority, a minority or a tiny fraction? I'd guess the last, since as myrm said, 99% of commanders have never even seen a woman since their mothers consigned them to the basement.

So basically

 

[starman]

Serious question (I vaguely recall seeing a poll thread posted a while back, but can't find it). I was recently suprised to find that yes, basically everyone on the forum is a middle-aged man or woman, to the point where it's the rule rather than the exception. Even when I brought it up in-thread, all I got was affirmation that yes, everyone is fairly, uh, mature.

Is anyone here not above the age of 25? (sorry people in your late 20's, you're too far gone)

What about forum mum?

 

[jasonbarron]

I don't find anything more or less illogical about embracing gender fluidity than I do about assigning gender at all.

While biological sex (which isn't exclusively binary itself...intersex conditions being far more common than most assume) certainly comes with a small number of virtual imperatives, and a whole slew of more vague tendencies, gender is a subjective social construct.

Most of my in-game analyses are based on more objective things. In similar real-world situations, such as the fastest way to disable or destroy a person, I'm equally objective. Gender doesn't enter into that either, unless I have cause to believe one's own subjective gender role has caused them to neglect combat experience or physical fitness to such an extent that I'd find it easier to destroy their central nervous system, or cause an incapacitating loss of blood pressure, than their physical size would indicate.

Either you're a logical person, or you aren't. My opinions, for instance, all stem from a central value structure, and these values remain constant and are intrinsically linked to logic and reason. There are no connections between gender fluidity and reason/logic, only subjective opinion, which by definition is illogical.

Obviously there is room for education and advancement in my ethos, but supplanting the science of biology with subjective opinion doesn't come anywhere near meeting the threshold required to move the needle.

Back on topic: I am a total forum dad, both in implication, age, and reproductive record. The only place I lack true "forum dad" status as it's generally defined on this forum is in temperament. A side note would be that I think the major push back against widespread acceptance of PvP is due to the overwhelming number of forum dads in the community; old people are usually ready to take a break and just enjoy the ride and have no use for the constant struggle present with a PvP environment.

 

[Morbad]

There are no connections between gender fluidity and reason/logic, only subjective opinion, which by definition is illogical.

This is blatantly false.

Obviously there is room for education and advancement in my ethos, but supplanting the science of biology with subjective opinion doesn't come anywhere near meeting the threshold required to move the needle.

If you think one's gender identity is determined by biological sex, your understanding of biology is faulty.

 

[jasonbarron]

This is blatantly false.



If you think one's gender identity is determined by biological sex, your understanding of biology is faulty.

Feel free to show me the scientific reasons why I speak in error.

 

[Morbad]

Feel free to show me the scientific reasons why I speak in error.

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News

Gender identity haunts every aspect of our lives, dictating the outcomes of our conversations, our workplaces, our relationships – even our bath products. Before most infants are named, they are assigned a sex based on the appearance of their external genitalia by a third party. These decisions...

sitn.hms.harvard.edu

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/ -- more useful for the references than the editorial itself.

How science is helping us understand gender

Freed from the binary of boy and girl, gender identity is a shifting landscape. Can science help us navigate?

www.nationalgeographic.com

US proposal for defining gender has no basis in science

A move to classify people on the basis of anatomy or genetics should be abandoned.

www.nature.com

The idea that gender is a binary thing, or that it's exclusively determined by one's anatomy or physical sex is as dead to modern scientific consensus as the idea that being other than heterosexual is a mental disorder.

 

[jasonbarron]

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News

Gender identity haunts every aspect of our lives, dictating the outcomes of our conversations, our workplaces, our relationships – even our bath products. Before most infants are named, they are assigned a sex based on the appearance of their external genitalia by a third party. These decisions...

sitn.hms.harvard.edu

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/ -- more useful for the references than the editorial itself.

How science is helping us understand gender

Freed from the binary of boy and girl, gender identity is a shifting landscape. Can science help us navigate?

www.nationalgeographic.com

US proposal for defining gender has no basis in science

A move to classify people on the basis of anatomy or genetics should be abandoned.

www.nature.com

The idea that gender is a binary thing, or that it's exclusively determined by one's anatomy or physical sex is as dead to modern scientific consensus as the idea that being other than heterosexual is a mental disorder.

Okay, I'll dig in and give it a fair, open minded read and get back to you with an opinion.

 

[starman]

I think gender should be left out of this thread.

You are right.

 

[jasonbarron]

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News

Gender identity haunts every aspect of our lives, dictating the outcomes of our conversations, our workplaces, our relationships – even our bath products. Before most infants are named, they are assigned a sex based on the appearance of their external genitalia by a third party. These decisions...

sitn.hms.harvard.edu

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/ -- more useful for the references than the editorial itself.

How science is helping us understand gender

Freed from the binary of boy and girl, gender identity is a shifting landscape. Can science help us navigate?

www.nationalgeographic.com

US proposal for defining gender has no basis in science

A move to classify people on the basis of anatomy or genetics should be abandoned.

www.nature.com

The idea that gender is a binary thing, or that it's exclusively determined by one's anatomy or physical sex is as dead to modern scientific consensus as the idea that being other than heterosexual is a mental disorder.

All those articles are proving is the existence of "science fluidity" as a concept. Meaning that it's now okay to shift the scientific goalposts for societal reasons in order to pander to special interest groups, as opposed to purely biological reasons. If you want to believe that gender is not binary then as I said before good for you. As long as it stays a personal belief and not one where the government enforces political correctness of me calling you a "positron" at the point of a gun, it's perfectly fine. Obviously that's where this is going, the end game. I'll leave it there, though, as it's drifting far far afield.

 

[Morbad]

All those articles are proving is the existence of "science fluidity" as a concept. Meaning that it's okay for some bizarre reason to shift the scientific goalposts for societal reasons in order to pander to special interest groups, as opposed to purely biological reasons.

That's your subjective opinion on the topic and in this case, it's ridiculous. The scientific consensus isn't what it is because of shifting goal posts or pandering to populist political pressures. It's what it is because all credible investigations into the topic, all applications of the scientific method, consistently fail to support a binary gender model.

If you want to believe that gender is not binary then as I said before good for you. As long as it stays a personal belief and not one where the government enforces political correctness of me calling you a "positron" at the point of a gun, it's perfectly fine.

If science is somehow illogical to you, all you have to do is ask yourself if you think you know everyone who doesn't conform to your ideal of binary gender better than they know themselves.

Obviously that's where this is going, the end game.

Sounds irrational and a bit paranoid to me. Non-binary people are pushing back against societal pressures to conform, to be something they are not. Acknowledging the demonstrable facts behind a complex interaction between non-linear spectra of sex and gender doesn't take anything from anyone, except perhaps some convenient illusions, misconceptions, and stereotypes.

The only place this is going is the end of segregation and other forms of official discrimination that never should have existed.

 

[jasonbarron]

That's your subjective opinion on the topic and in this case, it's ridiculous. The scientific consensus isn't what it is because of shifting goal posts or pandering to populist political pressures. It's what it is because all credible investigations into the topic, all applications of the scientific method, consistently fail to support a binary gender model.



If science is somehow illogical to you, all you have to do is ask yourself if you think you know everyone who doesn't conform to your ideal of binary gender better than they know themselves.



Sounds irrational and a bit paranoid to me. Non-binary people are pushing back against societal pressures to conform, to be something they are not. Acknowledging the demonstrable facts behind a complex interaction between non-linear spectra of sex and gender doesn't take anything from anyone, except perhaps some convenient illusions, misconceptions, and stereotypes.

The only place this is going is the end of segregation and other forms of official discrimination that never should have existed.

Well, we've both had our say and I'm happy to leave it at that. You're position is very politically correct, and I'm a bit surprised by it, that's all. Personally I have no desire to discriminate against anyone, but rather feel we should be addressing this as a mental health issue within a community that suffers from a nearly 40% suicide rate regardless of pre or post op/treatment. You may think that is helpful for society or your future children, but I do not.

Anyway, now that we have made our positions clear let's leave it out of this thread. If you would like to discuss further, probably should take it to pm. I did try to drag us back on course with my previous post, for the record.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I don't find anything more or less illogical about embracing gender fluidity than I do about assigning gender at all.

While biological sex (which isn't exclusively binary itself...intersex conditions being far more common than most assume) certainly comes with a small number of virtual imperatives, and a whole slew of more vague tendencies, gender is a subjective social construct.

...

Where do you think the general public puts their incidence at, percentage wise?
It's an anomaly, maybe at around 1% from what I gather.

These sorts of findings seem to contradict the "social construct" premise:

Data show that increased male‐typical toy play by girls with CAH cannot be explained by parental encouragement of male‐typical toy play. Although parents encourage sex‐appropriate behavior, their encouragement appears to be insufficient to override the interest of girls with CAH in cross‐sexed toys.

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[Myrm]

Can we please keep “gender politics” out of this conversation. This is a forum abourt a computer game. Please let’s stick to that. I’m reporting this thread as I think it is dangerously going off topic on a tangent.

 

[Morbad]

Where do you think the general public puts their incidence at, percentage wise?

A lot less than 1%.

0.6-1.3% is an enormous number of people, far more than enough to prove that physical sex itself is not binary, which would require exactly one example.

These sorts of findings seem to contradict the "social construct" premise:

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Those findings contradict the premise that gender identity is solely a social construct. No one here has claimed that genetics have zero influence, or even insignificant influence, but it's most certainly not the only factor.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Those findings contradict the premise that gender identity is solely a social construct. No one here has claimed that genetics have zero influence, or even insignificant influence, but it's most certainly not the only factor.

They outweighed the social influences.
That's a serious blow.
My understanding is we also see greater adherence to traditional gender roles where people are given more freedom to choose, not less; eg Scandinavian countries.

 

[Morbad]

They outweighed the social influences.
That's a serious blow.

Not to anything I've been arguing, which is that gender is both non-binary and not strictly tied to biological sex...positions that are well supported by the overwhelming bulk of available evidence. Even in the study you've linked, the social influence is not zero.

Toy preference and gender identity are also not one and the same. About the strongest conclusion I can reach from that abstract is that toys intended for boys tend to be superior than those intended for girls...which should be almost self evident, but I'm sure there are plenty of studies on that too.

 

[Lora Craft69]

Sorry folks but this is as far as this discussion goes.
The OP asked a simple question: "Is anyone here not above the age of 25?"
There was no need to derail this thread to the point that it became a completely different topic.