Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

Madrax573

Madrax573
I have flown a lot of space games where vector can be 'unlocked' or whatever they want to call it and rotations are dampened...

And in a setting where rotations are controlled through gyroscope control as opposed to thruster control I agree with them... but TBH they are not as much fun to fly as ED IMO...
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
Old Duck said:
This is how FA-off works in Space Engineers, and it is far superior IMO. Though you can manually override the gyros and put yourself in an "FA-off" rotation if you want to.
Click to expand...

I play SE quite a bit and the only way I've seen to have undampened rotations is to turn the gyro's off... then the thrusters need to be scripted separately to allow rotations around centre of mass.... let me know if there is some black magic way to do this as I much prefer undamped rotations...
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
TEBORI said:
this is why we suggest it as an option. to keep the 6DoF newtonien flying for the people who want.
Click to expand...

I'm all for more options to allow people to fly how they find fun but the idea that one method of control is inherently 'better' than another I find simply incorrect given my personal experience with a lot of pilots who use a variety of control methods...
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
the majority of the pvp players are using m&k
The forums, reddit are full of comments from various PvPer essentially agreeing that Rel Mouse was a life changer, even some reluctantly admitting that they had to give up on sticks to remain competitive.

we did our homework before we start such things.
and we suggest not to take the easy fa off mode away - cause i name it this way - but to just add a acceptable mode for stick players also.
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
well i flew 2 years hosas and now nearly 2 years m&k
and yes m&k fa off is easy going compared to HOSAS
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
TEBORI said:
the majority of the pvp players are using m&k
The forums, reddit are full of comments from various PvPer essentially agreeing that Rel Mouse was a life changer, even some reluctantly admitting that they had to give up on sticks to remain competitive.

we did our homework before we start such things.
and we suggest not to take the easy fa off mode away - cause i name it this way - but to just add a acceptable mode for stick players also.
Click to expand...

Just because people choose it does not mean it is better though... Also don't overlook commonality bias around the use of KB+M. It is the main control system for games on the PC... of course they will find it 'easier' to use as they are already familiar with it but I know many people who cannot even touch KB+M in ED as they come from a sim background...

Better is an opinion that you are entitled to have however the mechanics around relative mouse do not give any actual mechanical advantage. You CAN achieve exactly the same level of control with a stock setup as KB+M with RM...
 

Deleted member 121570

D
UnusualCupcake said:
Feet assist off
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Damn pedal users....!

TEBORI said:
the majority of the pvp players are using m&k
The forums, reddit are full of comments from various PvPer essentially agreeing that Rel Mouse was a life changer, even some reluctantly admitting that they had to give up on sticks to remain competitive
Click to expand...

To keep your own thread on track though....this isn't a PvP thing you were talking about. It was about aiming ;)
Individual pilots own experiences with their own control scheme preferences don't necessarily mean anything to anyone else.
Just being a PvPer doesn't necessarily make you a good pilot, or a good aimer. Practice does, whatever your control scheme.

To me, your point about adding an option for people who need/want it is good.
Getting into the usual pointless fluff about PvP is a different thing.
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
TEBORI said:
@Madrax573
well you argumented similar in a thread long time ago. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/relative-mouse-on-on-fa-off-vs-hotas.381134/post-5973978
there is no need to protect relative mouse.
WE DONT WANT TO CHANGE RELATIVE MOUSE
are you all really so scared...?
Click to expand...

I couldn't care less about RM.. I've switched it off and use KB+M without it now... so this point is totally invalid... I recommend people use RM for FA-off.. it mimics joystick movement when pressure is release as it is supposed to...
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
TEBORI said:
@Madrax573
well you argumented similar in a thread long time ago. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/relative-mouse-on-on-fa-off-vs-hotas.381134/post-5973978
there is no need to protect relative mouse.
WE DONT WANT TO CHANGE RELATIVE MOUSE
are you all really so scared...?
Click to expand...

And why are you using a thread form 3 years ago to defend a point? That is not vaild anymore...

My discussions are about the mechanics of such option and that player skill beats control method everyday of the week.
 

Shields Offline

S
TEBORI said:
are you all really so scared...?
Click to expand...

Is that what this discussion has devolved to?

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - wrong with stick at the moment. I'd buy one if I could justify it.

TEBORI said:
Rel Mouse was a life changer
Click to expand...

That's because it is - compared to absolute mouse, not compared to joysticks.

If you really want to give joysticks a change, then how about this:

  • Joysticks already function in the same way as relative mouse does for mice.
  • Joysticks don't have an equivalent of absolute mouse.
  • Let's make joysticks equal by giving them an option for "absolute stick" - where you have to press a button to re-center the stick's input.

Yea/nay?
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
My discussions are about the mechanics of such option and that player skill beats control method everyday of the week.
Click to expand...
i strongly disagree here.
fly in a fight and turn off relative for mouse and you will see.
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
Let's make joysticks equal by giving them an option for "absolute stick" - where you have to press a button to re-center the stick's input.
Click to expand...
does not work cause you have the negative move of the stick. when it moves back to center
 

Donald Duck

Donald Duck
Really, I don't get it. The same old discussion over and over again?

Firstly, nobody is forced to use HOTAS, spend a lot of money for expensive equipment and then be unhappy, if it doesn't work as wished.

Secondly, it is, as described in the opening post, harder to center with a joystick than with a mouse flying FA-Off, no doubt.

But if ppl are too lazy to even think half, no, a quarter of their braincell further, instead of crying about balance here and disadvantages there over and over again for years, they would have found a very simple solution for this problem already:

Toggle/switch Flight Assist on for an instance and centering with a joystick becomes as easy as with relative mouse. Needs training and timing, but when an old, clumsy idiot like myself is able to learn and handle that, others should be as well.
 

Deleted member 192138

D
TEBORI said:
i strongly disagree here.
fly in a fight and turn off relative for mouse and you will see.
Click to expand...
Keep up:
Madrax573 said:
I couldn't care less about RM.. I've switched it off and use KB+M without it now... so this point is totally invalid... I recommend people use RM for FA-off.. it mimics joystick movement when pressure is release as it is supposed to...
Click to expand...
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
fgs donald thats exactly the point. toogling is not wanted.
toogling is working like a break. it activates all thrusters rotation and translation and if no input is given at all it stops the ship.
this is exactly what we dont want. we are talking from perma fa off here continuesly
 
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