Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

[Ant_Solo]

Wow, OK. So Flight assist on except for thrust.

I think you would have to accept some serious limitations compared to FAoff as it is now to get that. Reduced turning rate, slower acceleration etc. And if it was ever implemented it would probably be given to all control methods maybe defeating the point of this.

I really can't see anyone going for this but like I said, good luck.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

exactly this as it was also suggested from some participants in this thread

i dont see personally why this should change the fight model at all. espacially when it is an additional option.
but maybe i miss something.

The flight models between FAOff and FAOn are different and distinct. Braking on any one directional thrust axis is much stronger in FAOn and weaker in FAOff (which can be mitigated with trichording). Acceleration on the directional thrust axes is significantly stronger in FAOff. Rotations are faster in FAOff (hence people primarily FAOn may still flip it off for a quick spin).

This seems to be a purposeful design choice - the rationale being that FAOff is harder to learn, so it specifically rewards people that master it.

How would you reconcile between the two flight models if you have a hybrid form between FAOff and FAOn? Have the changed directional axes but keep the slower rotations of FAOn to symbolise the dampened control input?

 

[Lesof]

OP will just keep ignoring Barnard lol.

 

[TEBORI]

no my personal approach would be that the flight model as it is now in fa off will be kept completly.
i would also not change the impulse in view of the rotation thrust so the rotational speed would be also kept.
but as soon the impulse from the joystick gamepad or which device ever stops the rotation of the ships also stops.

in my opinion there is no negative outcome of this at all. just a better controllable rotation for not mouse players.

i dont want the star citizen flight model in elite at all but in view of the combined mode of translation and rotation this can be seen very good there. as it was stated in the first page of this thread. the decoupled mode in star citizen works exactly like that.

 

[Ant_Solo]

It has been a fun ride. I've laughed, I've cried and I feel like I have grown as a person.

I can't help feeling if the OP had led with something like:

I would like a hybrid FAon / FAoff for HOTAS where pitch roll and yaw have counter thrust automatically applied to stabalise the ship but everything else works like FAoff

we could've saved quite a bit of time and effort.

 

[TEBORI]

I would like a hybrid FAon / FAoff for HOTAS where pitch roll and yaw have counter thrust automatically applied to stabalise the ship but everything else works like FAoff

well i am afraid its not that easy the stick does not just stop when its in the move. it goes back to center and on the way back it keeps giving impulse.

 

[Ant_Solo]

no my personal approach would be that the flight model as it is now in fa off will be kept completly.

It would be a wholesale change to how FAoff flight model works, the feel and usage would completely change. These are dramatic changes that will have lot of knock on effects.

in my opinion there is no negative outcome of this at all. just a better controllable rotation for not mouse players.

There would be a significant outcome, if it is positive or negative is debatable. This model would become very attractive to players who do not fly FAoff much or at all. It would be very easy to fly rather than needing to work at FAoff skill and it would probably kill off a lot of the FAon flight mechanics and in doing so would change the way the game feel completely. No need for the blue zone etc

My view is this would be a terrible thing for Elite.

i dont want the star citizen flight model in elite at all but in view of the combined mode of translation and rotation this can be seen very good there. as it was stated in the first page of this thread. the decoupled mode in star citizen works exactly like that.

It does sound a lot like SC flight model which IMHO isn't as good as ED's.

Also, this would need a lot of developer time and significant testing. I can't see any up side to all this investment. Elite has lots of things that could do with time and effort put in to them and it is clear that that investment can't be granted on a whim. A complete re-write of the flight model seems unlikely.

 

[TEBORI]

There would be a significant outcome, if it is positive or negative is debatable. This model would become very attractive to players who do not fly FAoff much or at all. It would be very easy to fly rather than needing to work at FAoff skill and it would probably kill off a lot of the FAon flight mechanics and in doing so would change the way the game feel completely. No need for the blue zone etc

at last a reasonable disussion

i dont think so. you need the same skill.
you have the same need to control and manage your 3 flightvectors with translation.
if you dont you will just drift anywhere without control. the skill in fa off flying is mostly based in controlling your flight vectors with 6 thrusters and directing the boost in them.
this is fully needed even if their is assist with rotation.

 

[TEBORI]

Also, this would need a lot of developer time and significant testing. I can't see any up side to all this investment. Elite has lots of things that could do with time and effort put in to them and it is clear that that investment can't be granted on a whim. A complete re-write of the flight model seems unlikely.

if this cant be done without changing the flight model then it should be dropped.
but i think just implementing an additional option for rotation can be done seperetly. we will see. maybe...

 

[Ant_Solo]

well i am afraid its not that easy the stick does not just stop when its in the move. it goes back to center and on the way back it keeps giving impulse.

You also don't want it to register any thrust as you are returning to center? This is just weird. There are some situations where that will make life easier but there are also lots where you lose fine control over your movement. You don't always want to thrust then stop, you also need to thrust hard then lighter.

 

[TEBORI]

You also don't want it to register any thrust as you are returning to center?

i didnt write this. and no for sure.

but this is a very detailed problem which will have to be sorted from devs. in case this will ever happen.

 

[UnusualCupcake]

I am still waiting on actual proof of the "problem" with relative mouse. I am genuinely curious to see what in the game has made you believe that the mouse does what you say it does. With mouse widget on and nohboard so everyone can see where your mouse moves and if what you claim happens is actually happening.

@TEBORI

 

[Ant_Solo]

i dont think so. you need the same skill.
you have the same need to control and manage your 3 flightvectors with translation.
if you dont you will just drift anywhere without control. the skill in fa off flying is mostly based in controlling your flight vectors with 6 thrusters and directing the boost in them.
this is fully needed even if their is assist with rotation.

Removing the requirement to deal with pitch, roll and yaw would make FAoff significantly easier. Not as easy as FAon but much easier than FAoff. It isn't unresonable to think it could become the default model for FAon CMDRs and, as I said, change the feel of the game.

if this cant be done without changing the flight model then it should be dropped.
but i think just implementing an additional option for rotation can be done seperetly. we will see. maybe...

How your ship responds to your input is a huge part of what the flight model is, this would be a significant change of that.

i didnt write this. and no for sure.

but this is a very detailed problem which will have to be sorted from devs. in case this will ever happen.

Ok good. I was trying to understand what you want rather than trying to put words in your mouth.

I think a solution to this problem is unlikely, you need that fine control. I think it is better to accept that the return to center is part of the movement.

Any attempt at a solution to this would be horrible and need a handing over of some complex movements to the computer.

 

[TEBORI]

I think a solution to this problem is unlikely, you need that fine control. I think it is better to accept that the return to center is part of the movement.

fully agreed. the fine adjustments are a must.

 

[Slange Lands]

Below is my favorite video of my favorite weapon of all time being used masterfully. Yamato's range control is breath taking.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn8W0ktizWQ&t=69s


Yamato is using short range blaster railguns. Of course, Yamato is the finest pilot in game. But if you are a Hotas user, you will never ever come even close to Yamato's precision with short range blaster rail guns. Yamato's skill withstanding.

If you are a hotas user and can use srb rail guns consistently well, kudos to you. You are one in thousands.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Below is my favorite video of my favorite weapon of all time being used masterfully. Yamato's range control is breath taking.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn8W0ktizWQ&t=69s


Yamato is using short range blaster railguns. Of course, Yamato is the finest pilot in game. But if you are a Hotas user, you will never ever come even close to Yamato's precision with short range blaster rail guns. Yamato's skill withstanding.

If you are a hotas user and can use srb rail guns consistently well, kudos to you. You are one in thousands.

Like countless others have said it's not the control scheme that makes a great pilot - it's the whole package.

Look at his PIP management. Look at his boost timing. Leveraging the biweave for regeneration and getting shields back. Look at his build: I'm pretty confident that multicannon is mostly there to keep Turk's regen at an absolute minimum while still leaving plenty of energy for WEP. Regardless, thanks to it being gimballed it's a nearly constant source of serious damage. I bet Turk took a lot of damage with zero PIPs to SYS because of that thing.

Finally there's just the fact Yamato is way better under pressure than his opponent. Did you see the predictable flight pattern Turk fell into? Yamato just had to make sure the rails were lined up where his target was repeatedly going to be and keep being evasive (and don't forget the FDL's relatively small unshielded profile plus the extra WEP and ENG you can leverage before shields start recharging). To put it another way, he was inside Turk's OODA loop. Yamato observed, oriented, decided, and acted faster than Turk and rightfully got the the W. Control method has nothing to do with that.

But yeah, sure, lift up the fact he uses keyboard and mouse like some kind of goddamn holy grail and demand FDEV undergo a serious overhaul of the flight model.

I humbly suggest an alternative: get good.

 

[Riverside]

Like countless others have said it's not the control scheme that makes a great pilot - it's the whole package.

Look at his PIP management. Look at his boost timing. Leveraging the biweave for regeneration and getting shields back. Look at his build: I'm pretty confident that multicannon is mostly there to keep Turk's regen at an absolute minimum while still leaving plenty of energy for WEP. Regardless, thanks to it being gimballed it's a nearly constant source of serious damage. I bet Turk took a lot of damage with zero PIPs to SYS because of that thing.

Finally there's just the fact Yamato is way better under pressure than his opponent. Did you see the predictable flight pattern Turk fell into? Yamato just had to make sure the rails were lined up where his target was repeatedly going to be and keep being evasive (and don't forget the FDL's relatively small unshielded profile plus the extra WEP and ENG you can leverage before shields start recharging). To put it another way, he was inside Turk's OODA loop. Yamato observed, oriented, decided, and acted faster than Turk and rightfully got the the W. Control method has nothing to do with that.

But yeah, sure, lift up the fact he uses keyboard and mouse like some kind of goddamn holy grail and demand FDEV undergo a serious overhaul of the flight model.

I humbly suggest an alternative: get good.

It would appear you have finally accepted the meaning of Aesop's tale of the fox with no tail Phisto

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

It would appear you have finally accepted the meaning of Aesop's tale of the fox with no tail Phisto

Haha. I still use my trusty XBOX controller with zero shame.

 

[TEBORI]

jesus christ this is not only about the pvp super (guitar) heros.
this is interesting for all pilots. flying newtonian is also fun without using any weapons.
the so called pvp community is not the center of the universe fgs.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

jesus christ this is not only about the pvp super (guitar) heros.
this is interesting for all pilots. flying newtonian is also fun without using any weapons.
the so called pvp community is not the center of the universe fgs.

I'm just some guy out in Colonia who fancies anarchy.

If someone like me gets it, well, I don't know what to tell you.