Why do the devs keep destroying every form of making income?

[Skyneon]

I'm new in this game (a bit more than a month) so i will not talk about the amount of reward for mission.
For me they look like trying to balance the mission for player that play 6+ hours per day.

But yeah mission for me is the biggest problem is this great game. On my point of view they are really really too random. I read a lot about the state of the system influence the kind of mission you will get, but on reallity that not what happem in a game. Many time i went to system that are in civil war and guet only hauling/trading mission and donation, and it happen really a lot. So i keep going system to system and my ome hour playing time was spend on only travel and nothing more. Funny story sometime i just go outfit my ship for haulling mission and when i comeback i get the fighting mission ( it happen a lot).

For exemple yesterday i spend 2 hours for stack massacre mission in a civil war system (with many CZ in the system) and manage to stack 2!! Of them. And yes i used the log out trick.

The mission wouldn't be a problem if it wasnt necessary for rank up and if the other activities was more dynamic ( bounty hunting, trade, mining ...)

But right now they would ne better to buff the mission reward or use a more clever system. Like a tab mission system where we can choose between combat, trad/hauling, exploration ... Mission.


Honestly i keep playing for now because the game is still new. But the mission system what will make !e stop soon. Usualy i can play at best an hour per day because of work, familly ... And the way the mission work make me already give up on ranking federation and empire and that aad because they have the ships that motivate me to buy the game.

 

[Kyokushin]

Devs are trying to balance rewards, but any tries balance are impossible because of relogo.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Left after they nerfed smuggling and not coming back til it is buffed either.

Smuggling is dead. Missions are a joke and blackmarkets buy only for loss or at least most of the time. Which leads to next problem, you can't see the prices.

Most tasks are more lossmaking than ever before. I can't maintain my Ships anymore.
Since 2.2 i dropped from 179mil in cash down to 172mil in cash. So i stored the Annie, stored the Python and sitting back now in my ASP.
okay i have forgotten how she feels and had directly one rebuy. Even these 2mil i didn't got back since it happened. Guess i go back to the Cobra or drop the game.

 

[Icklehobo]

I was watching a live stream one time and forget who was playing but sandro was there. They got smashed up and had to rebuy the corvette They had a few times in 5 or 10 mins, but the comment was doesn't matter cos they have loads of credits. It is starting to look like they have forgotten what its like to have to earn them.

 

[Weps]

I don't know, I've came back right before 2.2 and I've made about 30mil since then. I know it sounds very little but I've done it without it being a specific goal. I've started unlocking Engineers, so I focus on that, but I keep my eyes open for any opportunity to make some cash along the way. I pick up missions as long as they don't mean a detour, passengers, I did CZs when I needed specific mats etc., I pick up rares whenever going from one Engineer to another, I get interdicted but I scan my attackers with a KWS, I always carry an ADS and sell the data, I've been on two mining sorties with another ship etc.

I do everything in a Cobra so I have very little running costs and I don't focus on getting money for any other ship. Ammunition is probably the biggest cost element for me.

 

[zarking]

The missions are paying out a bit better now, we just need more of them.
I appreciate it's difficult to balance for players who play one hour a day and those who play eight, new players and experienced players, which is why it's maybe better that payouts increase substantially for higher ranks and allegiances. That way you can see it's worthwhile to spend say four hours getting allied, rewards go from 50k per mission to 500k, and if you're navy rank and power play rank are high and match the station faction, they go up to 1 million per mission.
That way people see it's worth putting the effort in and have obvious progression.

Once you've got to a certain point money doesn't matter other than as a cool bonus (Oh, 5 million for 10 jumps, yeah why not). It becomes more about experimenting and trying new things. The only time I really got into exploring was when I'd built up a healthy balance and thought to myself, I'll take a few weeks just to head out as far as I can, i don't need to keep cash grinding to keep up, let's just go and take in the galaxy, plenty time to outfit that cutter/conda/vette when I get back.

I think people are angry because even if all missions and activities paid 100 million an hour, everything still takes a long time, doing even one delivery mission takes half an hour (playing the "game" way and maybe scanning the odd USS or planet plus interdiction as you go), when you already have 100 million in the bank and you're saving up for that 150 million grade A power plant, there's absolutely no joy in getting a 50k reward for that half hour spent, i won't move for much less than a million

And FD shouldn't worry that all that money means everyone runs about in a conda and it's all over, we don't play like that. I spent most of yesterday in my cobra and parked up the cutter. It's way more fun for quick material gathering and taking risks. I'll even jump into my eagle to do wake scanning.

But if FD really do want more people in open were going to need all that rebuy money

 

[gravedodger]

The problem is not that things get Nerfed, it's the way they get Nerfed.

FD have this fracking annoying habit of Overpower/Meganerf™. They introduce something that is insanely powerful, then, realise their mistake, grab the Nerf Bat™ that has the power of Sandro's Loach streaming through it, then smash whatever it is out of the stratosphere.

Let me list my examples - off the top of my head, but hardly all inclusive...

Rares

Originally, unlimited quantities, take them 160Ly and get heaps of cash. The Nerf - limit quantities, and then, also limit the allocation every 15 minutes - often dropping just a single unit.

Seriously? Either one of those two would have been PERFECTLY adequate, reducing the huge money making potential, but still profitable enough that it's worth it. But both? Really?

Python

Originally a force of nature that combined the firepower of an Anaconda, the speed and agility of a Viper, and the most powerful shields (at the time) in the game. It was fun, sure, but yes, overpowered.

So, let's drops it's speed by 30-40%, nerf agility, drop shields by 30%, and then continue to Nerf it over the years to where it doesn't even fit it's own brief... The agility nerf would have been enough, and honestly, rather than messing with sliders, they should have dropped the thruster size to a lower class - it would make more sense, and would at least make it a touch cheaper to outfit.

FDL

Originally an ok ship, but underpowered and probably not quite as fast/agile as we'd really like.

Let's cut the price, pull out the polishing cloth, and the Brasso, and buff that baby until it's gold. Let's give it a speed/agility boost, and, a larger power plant. And hey, while we're at it, the engineers will give you even more power, so you can build a ship so powerful that there is no point even considering anything else, for any reason at all, if you want to blow stuff up.

Cannons

Originally, these were so powerful that the only weapon worth having on your Viper was an all cannon load out.

Let's make the projectiles so slow, that it would be faster to pop out the airlock, space walk over to your target, and smash the shell against the hull with your bare hands - but we'll Nerf the damage, too...


Ceos/Sothis

Huge payouts, and re-logging means lots of money!!!

Let's fix re-logging, AND cut mission rewards by 90%!!!

*triple facepalm*
I could go on...

Gently gently FD, seriously! This reminds me of my own fault finding, where if can change number of things, get the issue sorted (with side effects) and never really know what is actually wrong, or I can do one thing at a time and know I got it right.

It's almost as if we have a team of very talented hotshots, because there really are a lot of amazing aspects to this game, but no one actually has any experience, and it's just a company of hotshots constantly brainstorming without the benefit of the lessons of historical mistakes...

Z...

Dude, it's like you read my mind 1+

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Rares

Originally, unlimited quantities, take them 160Ly and get heaps of cash. The Nerf - limit quantities, and then, also limit the allocation every 15 minutes - often dropping just a single unit.

Seriously? Either one of those two would have been PERFECTLY adequate, reducing the huge money making potential, but still profitable enough that it's worth it. But both? Really?

I made a couple of threads a while back complaining about pathetic rare goods spawns and the 10 minute waits for yet another tiny allocation. Mostly what I got for this was abuse. Some players seem to think this is some form of meaningful gameplay. The usual response is "rare goods are rare". My Asp they are rare, somehow unpteen gazzilion tons of rare goods are suddenly available when there is a CG. In fact they usually buff rare goods spawns for CGs just so the great unwashed will be bothered to sign up for the CGs.

 

[MarcusKross]

IMHO - Wrong question OP.

Better questions are:

1. Why do the Devs keep on apparently dropping the ball when it comes to adding new money-making elements into the game, that end up paying disproportionate amounts on a regular basis, compared to the 'bread and butter' short-range commodities trading in Elite?
2. When such elements are added, why are they allowed to persist for such long periods of time (e.g. Sothis/Ceos, lack of module depreciation, low ship running costs etc.), which leads to over reliance of players on these things being present, and excess saltiness when the are eventually (rightfully) removed?
3. Countering 1. and 2., why are high-end ship and module costs so high to start with? Is an Ananconda/Cutter/Corvette/Whatever really worth several thousand Eagles or Sidewinders?

Best post in the thread.

Quoting for more visibility.

 

[CptSiddy]

I think there is still way to dupe rares.

2 years and still no fix.

 

[Slack]

I think the bigger questions should be, why is the game all about income to you? I have the big 3 A'd out and all the credits I could ever want. And yet I mostly fly an ASP or a Cobra and have just as much fun as using the "big income ships".

I'm not saying credit acquisition isn't important, it was actually quite fun and addictive, but due to the outrageous payouts of the past, especially Sothis/Robigo, credits have become completely irrelevant to me and have taken away part of the game I really enjoyed. This might be a hard concept to grasp, but take it from me, FD is actually trying to do you (and themselves) a favor with this "income destruction" although they are about a year late to the party and its only a bandage on a much bigger problem. I can tell you this much, if you're not enjoying the game now because you don't have the ships or income you want, you wont get more enjoyment when you get rich and have it all. You might actually get bored and lose interest when you find out your dream ship doesn't make the game more fun. I think that FD is starting to realize that many people play for the credit grind, so take that away then what? Hence the recent change and the attempt at keeping people playing longer.

Let me prove to you that this is the case. You say you came back for the passengers, but the moment you found out they wont have a good payout, you are ready to walk away again. Its all about the credits, you think the missions aren't engaging, there is no substance, its basically another A to B delivery. If you did enjoy them and were having fun, you wouldn't care about credits. This goes for smuggling and any other high paying activity which people lose interest in and complain about the moment huge payouts get taken away. In other words there is a much bigger problem than the recent income adjustments.

 

[CptSiddy]

I think the bigger questions should be, why is the game all about income to you? I have the big 3 A'd out and all the credits I could ever want. And yet I mostly fly an ASP or a Cobra and have just as much fun as using the "big income ships".

I'm not saying credit acquisition isn't important, it was actually quite fun and addictive, but due to the outrageous payouts of the past, especially Sothis/Robigo, credits have become completely irrelevant to me and have taken away part of the game I really enjoyed. This might be a hard concept to grasp, but take it from me, FD is actually trying to do you (and themselves) a favor with this "income destruction" although they are about a year late to the party and its only a bandage on a much bigger problem. I can tell you this much, if you're not enjoying the game now because you don't have the ships or income you want, you wont get more enjoyment when you get rich and have it all. You might actually get bored and lose interest when you find out your dream ship doesn't make the game more fun. I think that FD is starting to realize that many people play for the credit grind, so take that away then what? Hence the recent change and the attempt at keeping people playing longer.

Let me prove to you that this is the case. You say you came back for the passengers, but the moment you found out they wont have a good payout, you are ready to walk away again. Its all about the credits, you think the missions aren't engaging, there is no substance, its basically another A to B delivery. If you did enjoy them and were having fun, you wouldn't care about credits. This goes for smuggling and any other high paying activity which people lose interest in and complain about the moment huge payouts get taken away. In other words there is a much bigger problem than the recent income adjustments.

So now you have 2 classes of players. One that is super rich because they managed to abuse the system and did not get any repercussions because ED is not true MMO and devs did not feel like removing the oodles of cash from players. (Did the dupers get punished? no.)

And the impoverished ones that struggle to brake the 1m/h mark and look with jealousy at forums/reddit how people got Gorrillion spacebucs and/or are making 55 Gorillion dollars/hour and have every ship in the game A kitted (usually whining about how boring this game has become).

And in the middle of all this you got (arguably incompetent in MMO design) FD game devs trying to balance this mess. Problem with this game is that it don't know what it wants to be. Single player theme park or MMO or what?
On the one hand, lacking of PVP, player interactions and real effect on other persons play has given the FD devs free pass from all their economy mistakes. Could you imagine this s***t flying in EVE-online? The community almost burned the CCP to the ground when they discovered one game dev gave 2 BPO's to player alliance or free stuff to game reporter to play with. Having a player segment that made untold Gorillions with risk free way and then nerf the money pump without removing the money would have spelled then end of EVE. In here it gets just a shrug from community.
This have made devs complacent and unresponsive to the needs of average player... and result is that majority who own ED, rarely if ever bother to even play it anymore. Which leads me to wonder the FD decision to go FULL HORSE ARMOR route with micro transactions. If there is no real player interaction and i can mod my lasers to look pink from game files, why would i bother paying for the pleasure of vanity items if NO ONE but me ever gets to see them?

Seriously, vanity items with micro transactions in a game where no one will ever see them beside you.... on a moddable PC platform? Whoever is responsible for this, fire him and hire me.

 

[B1rdy]

Well said, this is exactly the problem with the mission payout nerfs. It's eerily similar to how the engineers launched too with a huge grindwall in front of them at first. Frontier seems to really want an extreme heavy grind fest of a game, and I'm not sure why that's so important to them.

That is their way of integrating new game play mechanics into the game. Putting new mechanics behing a "grind-wall", enables them to control the impact on the game play more carefully, because they limit the number of players using new mechanics. Therefore they have more freedom to react on unforseen things, whithout stepping on as many players' toes in the process. The second thing is the community (and humans in general) perceives changes in form of "buffs" far better than "nerfs". It might be questionable, though, way they don't communicate this upfront. Probably they will get les biased feedbay by not revealing their plan.

@Running-costs:It needs to be very carefully balanced, thus it could not be perceived as a punishment for playing the game.

 

[CapuchinSeven]

That said, it isn't really the individual persons fault, it is how game culture has become of late, people don't as much 'play' games anymore, as they click on something wanting a reward something to show off e.t.c. Or so it can seem.

This, reminds me of Randy in South Park chasing the dragon. That's pretty much what modern MMOs remind me of.
That said, I'd still like some depth to the mission system. My imagination is only so powerful.

 

[Tataboj]

Asp Explorer was my biggest ship for 230 hours. No regrets.

 

[Dominatus01]

A small but very loud portion of the community is adamantly opposed to fun, thinks that computer games should be roughly as enjoyable as working a second job, and whines endlessly whenever anyone else has fun in a way that "breaks their immersion".

That just about sums the ED community up perfectly, especially the "very loud" part.

 

[Hasaf]

So now you have 2 classes of players. One that is super rich because they managed to abuse the system and did not get any repercussions because ED is not true MMO and devs did not feel like removing the oodles of cash from players. (Did the dupers get punished? no.)

And the impoverished ones that struggle to brake the 1m/h mark and look with jealousy at forums/reddit how people got Gorrillion spacebucs and/or are making 55 Gorillion dollars/hour and have every ship in the game A kitted (usually whining about how boring this game has become).

I am, pretty much, in group 2; except that I do not begrudge those who entered that game early and have accumulated piles of credits. I am a bit more annoyed at how hard it has become to accumulate my own credits, there is a difference.

Why the desire for more credits?

To purchase better outfitted ships.

As I have mentioned before, as in most space games, there is a significant disadvantage applied to people who do not seek out shooting roles. In the past few months I have seen the non-shooting profits collapse. Part of it seems that the trade computers did not update fast enough. However, no matter what the cause, the game is definitely focused on planetside shooting missions. Any other activities pale by comparison.

How to fix it?

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the devs need to consider profit per hour. Last night I was chatting with someone who was shooting generators for over 30M / hour while I was slogging along at about 100K / hour with a passenger mission. If there really is nothing here but a shooting game, then bill it as such.

The other thing that is desperately needed, by people who consider themselves to be traders, is a real trade computer (but please, don't take a full slot for it). The need is made obvious by the proliferation of third party trade calculators (however, as an x-box user I cannot run the client).

Basicly, I would like to see a way for non-shooters to have an income similar to that offered to the shooting roles.

 

[Lennox Dantes]

Because they have no actual way to increase playability of this game without having a player run economy. Theu refuse to admit this so they keep spending their time and money adding and changing things that create mindless time sinks.

 

[Actionman2222]

Let me prove to you that this is the case. You say you came back for the passengers, but the moment you found out they wont have a good payout, you are ready to walk away again. Its all about the credits, you think the missions aren't engaging, there is no substance, its basically another A to B delivery. If you did enjoy them and were having fun, you wouldn't care about credits. This goes for smuggling and any other high paying activity which people lose interest in and complain about the moment huge payouts get taken away. In other words there is a much bigger problem than the recent income adjustments.

Be fair, if you have a goal in mind (game progresion and all), let's say buying a bigger ship. You find some missions you enjoy and pays well. Great, game progression and your having fun. The payouts are removed, so you'll still enjoy the mission but feel your going no where. Frustration follows, areas of the game are locked off to you because you can't progress there doing what you enjoyed.

Same argument over and over. But your argument is easy to make when you have all ships and bursting bank balance. Where does this view of berating new players (or Casual) for wanting to earn credits come from? It's a natural benchmark of game progression.

Baffles me.

 

[slartybartfast]

Why do the devs keep destroying every form of making income?

Well to get us trying other things like lets say passenger missions.