Why does Fdev seem to put the fewest resources possible into their most successful and lets not remind them "backed" game by the community..

As a previous business owner and operator for more than 50 years of a successful business, have had to make decisions that were not conducive to every single customer. Some of which took years to acquire some of which were customers for years after acquiring. The bottom line to the success of any business though important, isn't customer's complete satisfaction it's the bottom line that determines if a business is successful or not. Not the number of elated, satisfied, etc customer's who always get what they want, when they want, etc.

Video gamer's care about their video game in which they have for example $60.00 dollars invested. And look forward to free updates if and when they ever become available. How much of the original $60.00 is actually the cost vs profit is the business issue not the player. Subtracting the cost from the total provides a profit, reinvesting the entire profit in growth allows their to be additional updates. But though they may be free to the player, they are not free to make, one has to pay from all the profits everyone involved in the additional upgrade at a higher rate because of inflation and the business gets nothing from existing player's for it. A company is more interested in acquiring new gaming customer's than previous because new customer's bring new money, previous customer's don't.

Don't take this the wrong way, and don't take it personal because business is just business. But why would any business listen to a customer base which cost them money rather than spend resources on new customer's whom will invest in the business product. Thus provide the profits to go forward in business.
 
Oh no, I welcome the fragfest! I’m just saying there is no way it will be the only thing you do in foot. It would be laughable to think that the only reason you get out of your ship anywhere is to shoot each other. There has to be other things to do.

given how fdev has left SRV as is, neutered to one single type and style, I can almost hear someone at fdev reading your post here and saying ominously ‘challenge accepted!’
 
Oh no, I welcome the fragfest! I’m just saying there is no way it will be the only thing you do in foot. It would be laughable to think that the only reason you get out of your ship anywhere is to shoot each other. There has to be other things to do.
After three years of running around various planets and moons gathering mats in my SRV, I'll now be able to cover considerably less distance thus invest more time doing it on foot.
 
Well, you just ASSUME they were guns. They could also be copies of NMS multi-tools and include mining laser, scanner and terraforming tools ;)
Secondly I'd like to point out that having some Space Hippies dancing through an Brain Tree Field and sniffing at alien flowers probably isn't the most engaging gameplay you'd want to put into your first announcement trailer (unless said Space Hippies suddenly die a violent, choking death from the poisonous atmosphere they just inhaled ;) )

A bit more serious:

I agree with your concerns about weighting the different playstyles in a first person mode. I'd love to go exploring ruins, caves, derelict ships/settlements on foot. I'd also love to shoot the occasional robot, alien or pirate while doing so. But the balance needs to be right. When I find a derelict settlement, I want to be curious about it and explore it, without knowing what awaits me. Discovering messages that tell the story of the place and the former inhabitants... But just seeing the POI from orbit and knowing "Haahaaa, pew pew Leg Pirates!" would kinda take the fun out of it. If Space Legs just equal FPS combat, I'm not interested. If they offer engaging gameplay for various playstyles, I'm all in.


My second concern is about the pace of the FPS part. I don't like the modern day fast paced CoD like arcade deathmatches. Every once in a while I do some PvP in Destiny 2, but that's already too fast for my liking. I like more tactical, slow paced games (which would also better suit the slower paced exploration gamestyles). Think of Arma 3, DayZ or Swat 4 (gosh I'm old). PlanetSide 2 would be a middle ground I could still live with.
But really, I do not believe the modern day fast paced, arcadish FPS shooter games would fit into the rest of the game and I honestly believe that FDev knows that. They aren't as inept or dumb as some forum members believe them to be.

But so far we do know absolutely nothing about the content of Space Legs at all. I'm crossing my fingers the Dev Diary in August will deal with that topic and give some much needed info.
Careful, you will get some on here accusing you of failing to do your research or saying it doesn't affect them. That's the standard response to anyone bringing up concerns.
 
Don't take this the wrong way, and don't take it personal because business is just business. But why would any business listen to a customer base which cost them money rather than spend resources on new customer's whom will invest in the business product. Thus provide the profits to go forward in business.

You make some very good points and it's very interesting that the relationship between consumer and developer has changed in the past few years from:

"That game looks good, I think I'll purchase it. I like it enough to keep it and am happy that it stands up OK on it's own merits"

to

"I bought this game for 10 quid in the steam sale and I expect you as the developer to keep me informed of it's intended direction and I want to feel you are commited to it's future with free update and continued development"

But not for all games
 
Nutter is correct - in Summer 2018 the large majority of the Elite devteam began full production of New Era (now announced as Odyssey):
You know reading that 2018 announcement from Zac again, and considering how much content was in Beyond, and in Horizons, I'm reminded what we've been told a few times recently about Odyssey. Odyssey will be their largest update yet.

I take it from that it's a little more than just some basic fps and "blue filter" on the sky as some suggest ...
 
What?! Sorry, but I completely disagree.

The number of players using LTD mining or that egg has absolutely no effect on the quality of the code. It's astonishing to see how many people are so eager to blame the users for bad design or implementation.
Firstly, no-one outside of FDev has seen the code or the methodology they use to carry out the development. Therefore no-one, including you, has grounds whatsoever to say that the quality of the code is good, bad or indifferent. Any comment about the code is merely an uninformed and quite often an uneducated guess.

Secondly, you may disagree but that suggests that you know little or nothing about software development from the point of view of the developer. Or if you do, then you are gravely mistaken.

The point That Drew was trying to make was that no matter how good the code, the users have found enough exploits that fixing them has resulted in what is known as bird's nest code or stewed knitting. And before you jump on to your high horse and shout that the code should not have had the holes in the first place let me remind you that no-one is perfect, not even you.

Software is therefore not perfect either and never will be.

Lastly, the game has not remained static. It has moved on from the original vision, intentionally, and that results in code that becomes less and less optimal as new feature are added that were not thought of originally and do not easily fit into the structure of the original code. Eventually, and software has a normal lifetime of around 2 years, eventually the code breaks.

Before it gets to that point you redevelop it and if you're lucky, the old one lasts long enough to get the new one out the door.

tl;dr Users most certainly do affect the code in an number of ways. It doesn't help that some gamers actively try to break the game to gain an advantage.

<rant off>
 
I can't really speak on Elite as a franchise as I never played the original 1984 version and it's sequels following it. But perhaps as a new player, I can give a different perspective from the standpoint of someone with fresher eyes to the franchise and game itself. I must agree with some folks in this thread that have mentioned that some focus must be shifted to the game's inner workings and what would be considered small bugs not currently a priority due to newer content coming out.

It's disheartening as a newer player to come to an established franchise, long-standing game and finding that it's got some of the markings of early-access games you'd find on Steam. A game with this level of pedigree, you expect better, holding it to a higher standard. Despite that, it is demoralizing to come across small issues that seem to have plagued the game for quite some time. Example:

Last night I was beginning another journey to unlock some more engineers. Currently I'm unlocking Selene Jean and Billy Turner using a well constructed guide from a fellow CMDR on Reddit. As I'm grinding out some Alliance rep, needed for Billy Turner, I took up some combat missions in the surrounding systems of Alioth. I've spent most of this game mining and material farming, so switching to combat missions was a refreshing take. I took up some Massacre missions that involved dealing with "infected vessels". I go to the appropriate system, I scan the Nav Beacon and proceed to the threat. I bounce between a few mission threats in the system and notice my missions aren't updated. After a quick google search, you see that "infected" missions are bugged. As far back as 2015 it has been reported. Last mentioned around 2019. A mission that's been bugged for over 5 YEARS.

This is truly disappointing. And this isn't the only bug as I'm sure most veterans can list a few. I can only imagine how many more there are and with some players having played this for years, it must be frustrating. As a new player, this is quite poor representation of a product and we all know how important first impressions are. I truly love this game as it's a major change from playing WoW and action heavy games. My love for astronomy and personal narrative are satisfied by this game and I truly don't get bored doing even the most monotonous activities in game. With inspirations like 2001: A Space Odyssey, The Expanse, The Forever War and A Fire Upon the Deep as well as countless other examples of exemplary Sci-fi, this game fills a part of me I didn't think any game would. I've stared at Star Citizen from a distance, but after following it's shenanigans for years, I lost all hope of that being a viable game for me.

This game truly needs an injection of love. By love, I don't mean just new content. I wish more games would just pause for a second on all the new content and take a peek under the hood to what's already in a game and spruce up bugs, mechanics and such. I know that new content is what keeps gamers going and brings in fresh blood, but it's unacceptable to have bugs that have as long a life span as some a newborn child making it's way into grade school. I would love if the Galaxy Map got some fixes cuz that thing is wonky as gently caress. Some UI changes, more immersive flavor text from npcs rather than the same 4 lines or generic quest text. I'm not sure what Odyssey holds, but no matter what it is, although I'll be excited, I can't help but still feel ambivalent when they'll just be stacking up content over the game's many issues.
fdev doesnt even play this game lol if they did they would of at least added a small ammount of pinnable experimentals by now. So they either don't use engineering or don't play :)
 
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My personal view on the technical difficulties in developing the game, it's all about this:

“Before a planet can be made, you must first simulate the circumstances of its birth,” says Dr. Kay Ross, senior programmer. “And to know what planet you’re creating, you must first know what materials went into making it, how old it is, what its neighbours are doing, and which stars are nearby.”

Planets begin life as a disc orbiting with a a newly formed star at its centre. “The disc has material density and temperature information which reflects how lighter materials tend to get pushed further away from the star by the radiation pressure,” says Ross. “This has an iterative process applied to it as epochs of time are simulated, based on the rough known age of the system.”

Stable orbits are then determined for objects formed from the materials in the disc clumping together. Passing comets and rogue planets are also thrown into the mix, to disrupt the orbits and create fledgling planets and moons.

“The end point of this process provides information for potentially complex orbital systems, with co-orbiting or binary planets possible, and all sorts of potential moon layouts,” says Ross. “Each body has an amount of different gases, liquids, and solids collected, and chemical reactions are applied based on their temperature. These will also depend on the star’s properties, to determine if those liquids or gases would be stable at those orbital distances, and how much energy is applied to the system.”

The planets created through this process can finally be classified depending on the resulting remaining atmosphere, surface liquids, ground and tidal activity, be it a gas giant or a terrestrial world. “And all of this," says Ross. "Happens in a fraction of a second on your CPU."

... and then the 'game' has to be built to work within this (I imagine) restrictive but essential framework. There's the difficulty. Both for developing new content, and fixing bugs.
 
You know reading that 2018 announcement from Zac again, and considering how much content was in Beyond, and in Horizons, I'm reminded what we've been told a few times recently about Odyssey. Odyssey will be their largest update yet.

I take it from that it's a little more than just some basic fps and "blue filter" on the sky as some suggest ...
Depends on the definition of big ;)

You could have a massive update (in terms of lines of code) but actually release very few additional features, if you had spent the past two years tidying the codebase. I am not saying that's the case, but I am just wary of any spin-doctored words.
 
the users have found enough exploits that fixing them has resulted in what is known as bird's nest code or stewed knitting

You got the point. Planning software development without having even the slightest idea of what is possible in this game leads to the one and only valid conclusion: The guys resposible for that are not qualified.

It´s always a pleasure to see how veteran players tell the developers how their own game works. With every new patch. And please don´t tell me that this game is hard to understand.
 
Firstly, no-one outside of FDev has seen the code or the methodology they use to carry out the development. Therefore no-one, including you, has grounds whatsoever to say that the quality of the code is good, bad or indifferent. Any comment about the code is merely an uninformed and quite often an uneducated guess.

Secondly, you may disagree but that suggests that you know little or nothing about software development from the point of view of the developer. Or if you do, then you are gravely mistaken.

The point That Drew was trying to make was that no matter how good the code, the users have found enough exploits that fixing them has resulted in what is known as bird's nest code or stewed knitting. And before you jump on to your high horse and shout that the code should not have had the holes in the first place let me remind you that no-one is perfect, not even you.

Software is therefore not perfect either and never will be.

Lastly, the game has not remained static. It has moved on from the original vision, intentionally, and that results in code that becomes less and less optimal as new feature are added that were not thought of originally and do not easily fit into the structure of the original code. Eventually, and software has a normal lifetime of around 2 years, eventually the code breaks.

Before it gets to that point you redevelop it and if you're lucky, the old one lasts long enough to get the new one out the door.

tl;dr Users most certainly do affect the code in an number of ways. It doesn't help that some gamers actively try to break the game to gain an advantage.

<rant off>

Funny. Usually if you have a decent testing methodology, it'll mean less bugs with your code because you don't need a 10-point inspection to find bugs on the surface. I have always been against putting your patches out in the wild and basically have the community finding bugs live. Especially game breaking ones. Like I said in another post minutes ago, this works if your patches come frequently. Maybe even hotfixes in-between those patches.

However, it seems to me that there's very little testing going on. Set aside a few hours, fire 200 limpets into rocks at hotspots, and then crunch the numbers. Anyone could see something was amiss and the community did hours after the patch released. Games like this need testers. A few trustful and respectful individuals from the community will can test your patches for free. They only need a branch separate from the live game to work from. Yes, there are deeper issues with the code, but mostly what I am seeing here is that these are surface bugs and easily found with hands-on testing.
 
I personally neved released an A+ game, so have zero idea how it could kept alive for years. There are massive expenses, devs, designers, (management wages ....ouch ) infrstructure... and only Braben knows what else. Im a backer from '12, spent a bunch of money and time to have fun and i had. Ofc i had anger too sometimes, but never wanted to stop playing. This game and more like what it could be close to my dreams, and i want to find the good things in it. Never forget when i found a surface installation, it was awesome. My spent money price/hour is around 3 eurocent, compare it any other activity, its cheap. Anyone who complaining have an opportunity to make a better game, if it succeeded then may raise voice. Any other cases you may decide take it or leave it. Fact, that FD communication not as good as it could be, but i hope we may read many forum posts after years from now how they screwed their game again. Keep the Lavian Brandy cold and the Any Na Coffee hot, fly safe. Do you think Uncle Robby making better?? My coin is on DB.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Funny. Usually if you have a decent testing methodology, it'll mean less bugs with your code because you don't need a 10-point inspection to find bugs on the surface. I have always been against putting your patches out in the wild and basically have the community finding bugs live. Especially game breaking ones. Like I said in another post minutes ago, this works if your patches come frequently. Maybe even hotfixes in-between those patches.

However, it seems to me that there's very little testing going on. Set aside a few hours, fire 200 limpets into rocks at hotspots, and then crunch the numbers. Anyone could see something was amiss and the community did hours after the patch released. Games like this need testers. A few trustful and respectful individuals from the community will can test your patches for free. They only need a branch separate from the live game to work from. Yes, there are deeper issues with the code, but mostly what I am seeing here is that these are surface bugs and easily found with hands-on testing.
I do see a lot of people saying that the game doesn't get tested, and/or Frontier's testers are rubbish. Some of the bugs re so glaringly obvious that they can't test the game otherwise they would have seen it.

As someone who's working in QA for 9 years, why is it always the testers that get blamed? People talk about not knowing how Frontier's code works so they shouldn't make assumptions about it, but you don't know how Frontier's testing is run. And for us when bugs get fixed and pushed to live, or the next update goes out, I can tell you that not all of the things I've found are in there by a long shot.
 
Firstly, no-one outside of FDev has seen the code or the methodology they use to carry out the development. Therefore no-one, including you, has grounds whatsoever to say that the quality of the code is good, bad or indifferent. Any comment about the code is merely an uninformed and quite often an uneducated guess.

Secondly, you may disagree but that suggests that you know little or nothing about software development from the point of view of the developer. Or if you do, then you are gravely mistaken.

The point That Drew was trying to make was that no matter how good the code, the users have found enough exploits that fixing them has resulted in what is known as bird's nest code or stewed knitting. And before you jump on to your high horse and shout that the code should not have had the holes in the first place let me remind you that no-one is perfect, not even you.

Software is therefore not perfect either and never will be.

Lastly, the game has not remained static. It has moved on from the original vision, intentionally, and that results in code that becomes less and less optimal as new feature are added that were not thought of originally and do not easily fit into the structure of the original code. Eventually, and software has a normal lifetime of around 2 years, eventually the code breaks.

Before it gets to that point you redevelop it and if you're lucky, the old one lasts long enough to get the new one out the door.

tl;dr Users most certainly do affect the code in an number of ways. It doesn't help that some gamers actively try to break the game to gain an advantage.

<rant off>

Jesus H. Christ. So, it's not the developer's fault if his software isn't up to scratch; and in any case, unless we're developers ourselves, we're in no position to criticise. 😂

There's a term to describe all that - it's on the tip of my tongue.............
 
Why is it that people believe if you can get out of your chair that the only activity possible will be a fragfest bloodbath? As if the first step you take off your ship anywhere there will be a CoD match going on.


Take on a wide variety of contracts and play your way, from diplomacy and commerce to lethal stealth and all-out combat. Diverse settings, objectives, and NPCs offer endless mission variety and a near infinite amount of content to enjoy.

Social hubs spread throughout the galaxy give Commanders the ideal place to plan their next move. Form alliances, procure services, and even find expert support in highly coveted Engineers. These public outposts also help you acquire and upgrade weapons and gear to perfect your playing style.

Experience intense first-person combat, kit out your character with an array of weapons and gear, and coordinate with teammates to master a multi-layered, deep, tactical environment where Commanders, SRVs and Starships converge.

I doubt if they're converging for coffee. :coffee:
 
You know reading that 2018 announcement from Zac again, and considering how much content was in Beyond, and in Horizons, I'm reminded what we've been told a few times recently about Odyssey. Odyssey will be their largest update yet.

I take it from that it's a little more than just some basic fps and "blue filter" on the sky as some suggest ...
Obsidian Ant had the scoop a while back
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7kxop0wqU4
 
sheesh, I can't be bothered to read through 7 pages, but to the OP.

Elite Dangerous : Odyssey is an update to Elite Dangerous.
If Fdev decided to just give up on Elite Dangerous and focus on "licensed themes Park Management" (crudely glossing over the nuances that make those games great),
then why did they sink the 2-3 years of "unpaid" Development (except for cosmetics) into upgrading the Elite Dangerous Experience to Include thin-atmospheres and space legs, and upgrading the core game.
 
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