Why I and many others will rarely play open

[Ian Skippy]

And all the excuses, I can hear it already - "have to fly a murder boat to survive", "why should I gimp my ship". It's perfectly achievable to fly ships that are both durable and retain their utility (I do this all the time, means that I won't fully engage in PvP beyond a few pot shots, but that's ok for me). Engineering is required, sure, but that's just the way it is, you either play by the games rules or keep whining, which isn't really going to change anything.

And if you want to min-max, that's a risk you'll take, if you get away with it, good on you, if not, then well you know the reason why. I have a shieldless T9 in my fleet for Tritium loading, if I get caught in that in Open I'm toast, but I can accept that as a reasonable risk/benefit proposition. Same goes for what I want to do, and where. Cashing in your exploration credits in Deciat or ShinDez is certainly an option, but doing this in Open has some potential downsides. Just accept it and let that flow into your decision making process accordingly.

Yup. Things is, for someone to grief me they need to:

1) Be in the same system.
2) Be close enough to me in supercruise for the interdictor to work.
3) Be behind me in supercruise for the interdictor to work*
4) Succesfully interdict me
5) Be able to kill me in the 15s it takes to hi-wake**

*cutters/corvettes are not very agile in SC, and most beginner ships are more agile than most ganker ships. At this stage you just need to be aware of the ganker and keep pointing towards him in SC. Nothing he can do at that point. They'll throttle down and wait for you to pass them by: just throttle down yourself. Usually he'll be staring at you a bit, realise you are not an idiot and move on. Else just hi-wake or drop-down, pick a jump, spool but not jump yet. If he follows your low-wake, jump. If not after a while you can jump back into SC.

**to prevent being killed in the 15s you need to hi-wake (not low-wake, you'll possible get mass locked!) you need to be either durable, fast or agile enough. The former requires proper loadout and engineering, and is the most difficult. PvP ships do massive damage and its not easy for a trader/explorer to soak that up. If you are agile just spool the drives and fly around your attacker while spamming double chaff. All you need to do is make sure he cant unload on you for a while. If you are fast make sure you boost away from him when doing a fly-pass, not when he is behind you. The combined speed difference is enough to get you out of range in one boost. The pure speed difference versus an FdL might give the attacker 10 seconds to offload into a mostly non-dodging opponent.

In short: the average victim was killed not because of how unfair it all is, but because they paid not attention and had no plan. At that point you are either lucky to not be targeted, or you die. But that is not because escape was inevitable, but rather because the 'victim' made no effort whatsoever to prevent catastrophe. And the sad thing is that many of them would be able to learn the above in less time they spend on telling the world how unfair it all is.

 

[Lysette]

People often overestimate the danger from ganking anyway - in EVE there is an enterprise called red frog freight - they do transports for their customers in freighters, which have no weapons whatsoever. Mass amounts of transports every day. And most often through choke points, where ganking is happening all the time. Their loss rate is just 0.05% - so is it really that dangerous?- not really. It will hit some, but most will not be effected by ganking.

 

[Ian Skippy]

So in my books they're not rubbish, far from it, and I don't believe my skill level is that bad either at this stage.

Again: true. I am not that bad a pilot either IMHO, but the more notorious griefers/gankers are all of higher skill level than me. Its funny though, these anti-Open people are often very much in favor of 'forum pvp'. Here's a good flowchart if you want to know you are better or not: did you spend countless hours trying to understand how all the design choices interlock, and then spend even more hours practicing your skills over and over and over versus the most capable players in the game?

No? Then you probably are more rubbish then them.

 

[Lysette]

Again: true. I am not that bad a pilot either IMHO, but the more notorious griefers/gankers are all of higher skill level than me. Its funny though, these anti-Open people are often very much in favor of 'forum pvp'. Here's a good flowchart if you want to know you are better or not: did you spend countless hours trying to understand how all the design choices interlock, and then spend even more hours practicing your skills over and over and over versus the most capable players in the game?

No? Then you probably are more rubbish then them.

it is their attitude what is rubbish, not their skills - preying on defenseless vessels for the sole purpose of "tear harvesting" is rubbish.

 

[Ian Skippy]

People often overestimate the danger from ganking anyway - in EVE there is an enterprise called red frog freight - they do transports for their customers in freighters, which have no weapons whatsoever. Mass amounts of transports every day. And most often through choke points, where ganking is happening all the time. Their loss rate is just 0.05% - so is it really that dangerous?- not really. It will hit some, but most will not be effected by ganking.

Its not about the odds of being ganked (rather low) or the consequences of being killed (very low). It is psychological. The typical hyper-vocal anti-Open player is of a rather specific tye: the immersion-seeking explorer/trader boomer. The types who spend thousands and hours pressing 'j' as an explorer and feeling elite while learning nothing beyond how the honk button works. Or dragging biowaste from A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B and feeling elite while learning nothing beyond how docking works.

They are the lowest-skilled cmdrs with the least understanding of the game's mechanics. They know the absolute basics, just barely enoguh to allow them to indulge their Spaceman Spiff or Major Tom roleplay. Look at them, they are really the big space man now! Until some slightly intoxicated euro-trash teen shows up on a friday and roflstomps their ships while laughing about it. The Amazing Spaceman Spiff. Bested. By some random nobody kid. Unnaceptable. Its the fault of the game. Its unbalanced. Unfair. Nothing they can do. And its the fault of the attacker. They are psychopaths. Completely bizarre, sub-human critters. And other Open players arguing that with some basic skill and preparation griefing is a non-issue? Liars, frauds, probably griefers-in-disguise trying to lure Spaceman Spiff into a trap! But he wont fall for it, no Sir! He will safely stay on the forums and fantasize about pressing 'j' once more once his shift ends. Note how the core of the Star Citizen community are the same. "You can't shoot at me! I paid $1200 to feel like a Real Good Spaceman!".

As a small amusing sidenote, the above is why these people tend to rage about the 'fragile egos' of the 'griefers'. Let it sink in. Its not the boomer dude impotently raging after having his fake space ship blown up once in a computer game that is having some ego issues. No, its the kid (who already racked up literal billions of insurance claims when dying over and over while practicing his skills without ever caring the slighest) who is insecure.

 

[Ian Skippy]

it is their attitude what is rubbish, not their skills - preying on defenseless vessels for the sole purpose of "tear harvesting" is rubbish.

Whatever you say, chief. Personally I feel the worst possible attitude is not taking responsibility for my own failures.

 

[Vogel_238]

Its not about the odds of being ganked (rather low) or the consequences of being killed (very low). It is psychological. The typical hyper-vocal anti-Open player is of a rather specific tye: the immersion-seeking explorer/trader boomer. The types who spend thousands and hours pressing 'j' as an explorer and feeling elite while learning nothing beyond how the honk button works. Or dragging biowaste from A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B to A to B and feeling elite while learning nothing beyond how docking works.

They are the lowest-skilled cmdrs with the least understanding of the game's mechanics. They know the absolute basics, just barely enoguh to allow them to indulge their Spaceman Spiff or Major Tom roleplay. Look at them, they are really the big space man now! Until some slightly intoxicated euro-trash teen shows up on a friday and roflstomps their ships while laughing about it. The Amazing Spaceman Spiff. Bested. By some random nobody kid. Unnaceptable. Its the fault of the game. Its unbalanced. Unfair. Nothing they can do. And its the fault of the attacker. They are psychopaths. Completely bizarre, sub-human critters. And other Open players arguing that with some basic skill and preparation griefing is a non-issue? Liars, frauds, probably griefers-in-disguise trying to lure Spaceman Spiff into a trap! But he wont fall for it, no Sir! He will safely stay on the forums and fantasize about pressing 'j' once more once his shift ends. Note how the core of the Star Citizen community are the same. "You can't shoot at me! I paid $1200 to feel like a Real Good Spaceman!".

As a small amusing sidenote, the above is why these people tend to rage about the 'fragile egos' of the 'griefers'. Let it sink in. Its not the boomer dude impotently raging after having his fake space ship blown up in a computer game that is having some ego issues. No, its the kid who already racked up literal billions of insurance claims without ever caring the slighest who is insecure.

absolutely this! 100

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

But why is 'mastering' combat the 'superior' route (because that what it sounds like you're saying)?

It's not, it's a different route. What is wrong with wanting to play in a different way to you? And again, I think for most of us here, it's not that PVP is bad, it's that 'ganking' is bad.

 

[Rat Catcher]

But why is 'mastering' combat the 'superior' route (because that what it sounds like you're saying)?

It's not, it's a different route. What is wrong with wanting to play in a different way to you? And again, I think for most of us here, it's not that PVP is bad, it's that 'ganking' is bad.

We each play how we wish - combat is one of the elite routes, no problem.

It isn't ganking that is bad - sorry to disagree - it is as much a part of this game as exploration, combat, in any form, is part of the game - otherwise why have an elite rank in it?

Nobody ever needs to be ganked, griefed, be a 'victim', indulge in 'emergent content' as a target... Preventing it is a single click when starting a game session, simple!

Selecting open play, no matter where one is in the galaxy is explicitly consenting to encountering another player - with no assurance that encounter would be friendly.

It is up to the individual player if they wish to present as a target to another, end of story.

(I won't sanction the "just block" suggestions, although the option exists)

Disclaimer: I have virtually zero interest in PvP play, but do understand how mode choice can benefit me, and do have the evasion skills to remove myself from the odd 'unwanted' encounter 90% of the time, and sufficient credits to buy back even my most expensive ship many times. (Remember those mode choices - guess which I choose if I really, really don't want to bother with strangers?)

 

[Robert Maynard]

But why is 'mastering' combat the 'superior' route (because that what it sounds like you're saying)?

It largely depends on the player making the contention - with a side of condescension.

It's not, it's a different route. What is wrong with wanting to play in a different way to you? And again, I think for most of us here, it's not that PVP is bad, it's that 'ganking' is bad.

Indeed. Travelling a different path is just that - players have different wants from the game, and some players just want to see ships go boom with the possibility of a serving of salt to go with it. Other players, not so much.

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

We each play how we wish - combat is one of the elite routes, no problem.

It isn't ganking that is bad - sorry to disagree - it is as much a part of this game as exploration, combat, in any form, is part of the game - otherwise why have an elite rank in it?

Nobody ever needs to be ganked, griefed, be a 'victim', indulge in 'emergent content' as a target... Preventing it is a single click when starting a game session, simple!

Selecting open play, no matter where one is in the galaxy is explicitly consenting to encountering another player - with no assurance that encounter would be friendly.

It is up to the individual player if they wish to present as a target to another, end of story.

(I won't sanction the "just block" suggestions, although the option exists)

Disclaimer: I have virtually zero interest in PvP play, but do understand how mode choice can benefit me, and do have the evasion skills to remove myself from the odd 'unwanted' encounter 90% of the time, and sufficient credits to buy back even my most expensive ship many times. (Remember those mode choices - guess which I choose if I really, really don't want to bother with strangers?)

With respect, I believe that Ganking is a problem, as it's PVP with the sole intention of causing out of game upset - I will admit my experiences here a coloured by 'seeing behind the curtain' with regards to a different game, and the actions of the Goon Squad (Something Awful Forums). These people intentionally join other games with the sole intention of ruining them, and trying to make players quit. And this isn't just hyperbole, this was what I saw with my own eyes thanks to someone that had access to the SA forums.

That's not to say that all 'gankers' are like that, just that the end result is the same. I have no problem with the idea of PVP, I do have a problem with other people being bullies.

 

[Ian Skippy]

But why is 'mastering' combat the 'superior' route (because that what it sounds like you're saying)?

You forgot to quote someone, so I am not sure who said that. In any case, the superior route when playing a game is 'not getting blown up' as opposed to 'getting blown up and then complaining and blaming others'. Some will prefer to play Open, that is fine. But those who do so will need to learn some basic skills and understand at least the rudimentary workings of it, or risk getting blown up a few times. Which itself isn't really a big deal anyway. Others will prefer to play PG/Solo, which is also fine.

The only daft thing is people refusing to learn the basics, refusing to play the mode where you need to learn the basics to prevent the occassional gank, refusing to simply accept the minor consequence of paying a bit of insurance now and then, and then go online to feel sorry about themselves.

 

[Ian Skippy]

With respect, I believe that Ganking is a problem, as it's PVP with the sole intention of causing out of game upset - I will admit my experiences here a coloured by 'seeing behind the curtain' with regards to a different game, and the actions of the Goon Squad (Something Awful Forums). These people intentionally join other games with the sole intention of ruining them, and trying to make players quit. And this isn't just hyperbole, this was what I saw with my own eyes thanks to someone that had access to the SA forums.

That's not to say that all 'gankers' are like that, just that the end result is the same. I have no problem with the idea of PVP, I do have a problem with other people being bullies.

Pretty sure you are talking about EvE here. ED is quite different in that it heavily favors the 'defender'. It is so trivially easy to prevent being ganked, and the cost in credits is so pitiful compared to current hyper-earnings, that it is a non issue for anyone who bothers to learn some basic things. I can spend an afternoon mining and it will pay orders of magnitude more than all my insurance claims, ganking and otherwise, combined the last seven years. If my rate of being blown up stays the same, I have enough credits on hand to pay for all insurance costs for the next 600 years. And I am nowhere near close to buying a FC.

The panic and anxiety around 'ganking' in ED is completely insane when you look at the actual numbers. Ganking is an easily preventable nuisance, nothing more. Anything else is purely something psychological in some people's minds, nothing more.

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

Pretty sure you are talking about EvE here. ED is quite different in that it heavily favors the 'defender'. It is so trivially easy to prevent being ganked, and the cost in credits is so pitiful compared to current hyper-earnings, that it is a non issue for anyone who bothers to learn some basic things. I can spend an afternoon mining and it will pay orders of magnitude more than all my insurance claims, ganking and otherwise, combined the last seven years. If my rate of being blown up stays the same, I have enough credits on hand to pay for all insurance costs for the next 600 years. And I am nowhere near close to buying a FC.

The panic and anxiety around 'ganking' in ED is completely insane when you look at the actual numbers. It is purely something psychological in some people's minds, nothing more.

Never played Eve, this was actually a little browser based MMO called 'Urban Dead'.

My problem is with the mindset of those that 'gank', not the mechanics of ganking or avoiding being ganked.

 

[Ian Skippy]

My problem is with the mindset of those that 'gank', not the mechanics of ganking or avoiding being ganked.

Sincere question: why make other people's mindset your problem? The way I look at it, if I take care of my ship, any ganker's mindset is his problem. Here is how ganking works:

Scary Griefer:"HAHAHAHA I AM GOING TO MURDER YOU!!!!"
Me:"No thanks"

 

[Brrokk]

With respect, I believe that Ganking is a problem, as it's PVP with the sole intention of causing out of game upset - I will admit my experiences here a coloured by 'seeing behind the curtain' with regards to a different game, and the actions of the Goon Squad (Something Awful Forums). These people intentionally join other games with the sole intention of ruining them, and trying to make players quit. And this isn't just hyperbole, this was what I saw with my own eyes thanks to someone that had access to the SA forums.

That's not to say that all 'gankers' are like that, just that the end result is the same. I have no problem with the idea of PVP, I do have a problem with other people being bullies.

They exist in every multi-player game.

In Lord of the Rings Online their options are very limited, but they try things like standing in exactly the same place as an NPC so that no-one else can click on him to take his quest.

In a text-only multi-player adventure I played yonks ago, they found that if two people worked together (terminals side by side) they could time it so that one could "approach" another player, turning his screen into a chat window, then the other could "attack" and kill him while taking no damage before he could exit from the chat.

ED has a significant reputational problem because their actions mostly affect new players, but it's true that once you know the game you can easily avoid meeting them or escape if that's your preference.

 

[Greasetrap42]

A curious thing I might try. Griefers or legit Gankers looking for PvP?

If I spend a rainy Saturday at Deciat flying in Open up/down to Felicity. Provide only basic resistance to any attack and never run away. Put up some fight, but allow them to destroy my ship. Count the total attacks and rebuys. Alternating periodically between two accounts.

a) new account, low combat rating, sidewinder or similar low-end non-combat build ship.
b) established account, high combat rating, corvette.
c) established account, high combat rating, obvious non-combat ship. (added to test)

I know this isn't very scientific, it depend on many factors. 6 hours of testing on a specific day might not be representative.
I am curious if there are any obvious trends.
Has anybody tried similar test before? -> I am definitely going to try this.


Edit: We are instanced with players of similar combat rating. That throws in an interesting factor.

 

[Brrokk]

A curious thing I might try. Griefers or legit Gankers looking for PvP?

If I spend a rainy Saturday at Deciat flying in Open up/down to Felicity. Provide only basic resistance to any attack and never run away. Put up some fight, but allow them to destroy my ship. Count the total attacks and rebuys. Alternating periodically between two accounts.

a) new account, low combat rating, sidewinder or similar low-end non-combat build ship.
b) established account, high combat rating, corvette.

I know this isn't very scientific, it depend on many factors. 6 hours of testing on a specific day might not be representative.
I am curious if there are any obvious trends.
Has anybody tried similar test before? -> I am definitely going to try this.

I occasionally fly the E-rated* Sidewinder "Griefer Blocker" around there to test their reading comprehension and update my list.

* Apart from ADC and SCA of course.

 

[Vetinari]

They are the lowest-skilled cmdrs with the least understanding of the game's mechanics. They know the absolute basics, just barely enoguh to allow them to indulge their Spaceman Spiff or Major Tom roleplay

And whats wrong with that exactly? Why shouldnt someone RP like that if they want to do exactly that and have fun doing it? Why do you or anyone else think you have the right to judge it? Says more about you than it does about them.

With respect, I believe that Ganking is a problem, as it's PVP with the sole intention of causing out of game upset

Thats griefing, trying to get an out of game response. Ganking is just using superior firepower and numbers on a weaker ship.

2 trained boxers in a ring sparring or fighting - PVP
1 boxer gets tired of fighting somebody good and of equal calibre so goes out into the street and punches people in the back of the head instead just so they win all the time - ganking
1 boxer prefers hurting people and so enjoys the pain of people they hit in the street and lords it over them how 'gud' they are- griefing

 

[Ian Skippy]

A curious thing I might try. Griefers or legit Gankers looking for PvP?

If I spend a rainy Saturday at Deciat flying in Open up/down to Felicity. Provide only basic resistance to any attack and never run away. Put up some fight, but allow them to destroy my ship. Count the total attacks and rebuys. Alternating periodically between two accounts.

a) new account, low combat rating, sidewinder or similar low-end non-combat build ship.
b) established account, high combat rating, corvette.

I know this isn't very scientific, it depend on many factors. 6 hours of testing on a specific day might not be representative.
I am curious if there are any obvious trends.
Has anybody tried similar test before? -> I am definitely going to try this.


Edit: We are instanced with players of similar combat rating. That throws in an interesting factor.

I didn't log it, but my experience @deciat is:

1) Harmless sidey = griefer magnet
2) Elite sidey/viper/courier = mostly ignored (I guess most griefers realise what that ship will be)
3) Elite corvette = griefer magnet

You can see if another ship is outfitted for PvP or not. A PvE outfitted big ship much is easier to kill than an 'trollsidey/viper/icourer', and many PvE corvette cmdrs dont realise just how easy to kill they are. By then time they figured it out its too late already. So flying a big ship is no deterrent to a skilled ganker/griefer, the opposite in fact. They will tend to ignore high-ranked players flying ships outfitted in such a way to suggest the cmdr knows what he's doing.