Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Havvk]

Powerplay is adversarial, otherwise whats the point of playing together but in rival teams in Open? Its asking footballers not to tackle.

You're expecting everybody to play football while the rest of us just wants to play horse shoes. Go away you loud rabblerouser.

Its too broad, it needs focus- threads like this one are proof it needs more attention.

No, you need focus if you can't seem to understand that not everybody has a hard on for only hardcore PvP 24/7

You have lots of tools, use them. Location, ship, skills- traders trade to make money and greed is a driving force to tempt them into danger. Pirates want quick money and don't want to work. Plus, if gets too hard drop to another mode.

We do use them but you still cry like a baby when we do! cough blocking for ex.

The fact that we use Solo/PG gets your panties in such a twist that you make Open-only (insert whatever normal gameplay here) to "coerce" players into thinking open is gonna be "more fun".

Yea, for only you maybe.




NO.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I chose D, not playing your game to begin with. You rob me my LTD? I rob you of your gameplay and potential good loot. Simple, all is fair in love and war.

Then go to a place where I'm not about using in game tools or modes. I don't mind at all of you use skill and cunning to evade.

Wrong. Newbies and noobs alike suffer the worst a player can suffer; Being "new" barely able to keep his wallet above a few tens of thousands of cr. Any rebuy for a newbie is a mortal and potential killing blow right then and there. They don't have billions of credits and an entire armada of ships to pick and choose from, they most certainly haven't even got to engineers yet.

When I was new and when the game was actually hard, I went bankrupt and turned to piracy.

Assuming players chose to do this. I can't say they would or won't, since I don't know what you're trying to imply with "food chain"

Its a game you play within certain rules. Currently its too easy to escape using a menu than it is actually playing.

Go back to Eve online. Stop it. Stop. This is Elite: Dangerous, a completely different game.

And what is Elite Dangerous? Hand holding mug delivery sim or something?

 

[Rubbernuke]

That is expecting the players to play by the rules. They don't.

If sec forces are quicker, numerous and stronger you have to work quicker or be able to take more fire while collecting. Some may choose other ways but all the same the challenge is higher and risks more damage which in turn lessens the hauls value.

 

[Havvk]

Then go to a place where I'm not about using in game tools or modes. I don't mind at all of you use skill and cunning to evade.

What?

When I was new and when the game was actually hard, I went bankrupt and turned to piracy.

Bingo.

Its a game you play within certain rules. Currently its too easy to escape using a menu than it is actually playing.

Blocking and menu logging are still within the rules.

And what is Elite Dangerous? Hand holding mug delivery sim or something?

Elite is whatever you want it to be, baby.

 

[A C Ender]

Pirates would operate wherever they wanted - there's no requirement for them to ply their trade in particular systems - unless there's a suggestion that piracy would be impossible outside of particular systems?

I think that's what @Rubbernuke tried to outline in post #525

 

[Rubbernuke]

You're expecting everybody to play football while the rest of us just wants to play horse shoes. Go away you loud rabblerouser.

Er, no. It can't be fair if a goalkeeper can vanish with the ball for the last 10 minutes of a game and call that a win.

No, you need focus if you can't seem to understand that not everybody has a hard on for only hardcore PvP 24/7

Er...OK. What I'm asking for is to group people better so no-one wastes time. The only hardcore mode involved would be toughening up optional Powerplay.

We do use them but you still cry like a baby when we do! cough blocking for ex.

Why do you need to block or menu log when someone tracks you down and steals from you? Cargo is lost on destruction so if I'm a proper pirate why would I kill you?

The fact that we use Solo/PG gets your panties in such a twist that you make Open-only (insert whatever normal gameplay here) to "coerce" players into thinking open is gonna be "more fun".

And if you were paying attention rather than foaming at the mouth you'd see that for most things (bar Powerplay) I have no problem with modes at all. My only beef is with Open and how people choose to menu log to deal with the pirate.

 

[Rubbernuke]

What?

Trouble reading or something?

Bingo.

And ever since I've been one, as well as Powerplay.

Blocking and menu logging are still within the rules.

Which is why we are having this discussion- the rules are too elastic in certain situations, but are complicated by player killers.

Elite is whatever you want it to be, baby.

Except consistent danger, then its optional based on Ovaltine temperature.

 

[Havvk]

Er, no. It can't be fair if a goalkeeper can vanish with the ball for the last 10 minutes of a game and call that a win.

Too bad, we're not playing football when you tell us to. Heck, some of us don't even do sports at all.

Er...OK. What I'm asking for is to group people better so no-one wastes time. The only hardcore mode involved would be toughening up optional Powerplay.

We already do. I mean that's how we have Canonn, Mobius, IRH and others of various sorts of gameplay styles.

Why do you need to block or menu log when someone tracks you down and steals from you? Cargo is lost on destruction so if I'm a proper pirate why would I kill you?

Because I don't accept you to be in MY game, and if you pop in my game, I will hit "block" and switch modes to remove you from ruining MY game. You have that same power too you know!

And if you were paying attention rather than foaming at the mouth you'd see that for most things (bar Powerplay) I have no problem with modes at all. My only beef is with Open and how people choose to menu log to deal with the pirate.

I am paying attention, and I'd like for you to to realize that PP was never intended to be direct intense PvP?

You wanna proper power play? Just look to U.S. government and play the game how like they act when being a politian. Power play is 4D chess, not checkers yo. It's best done with you playing the BGS, not killing ships.

 

[Havvk]

Trouble reading or something?



And ever since I've been one, as well as Powerplay.



Which is why we are having this discussion- the rules are too elastic in certain situations, but are complicated by player killers.



Except consistent danger, then its optional based on Ovaltine temperature.

You choose to enact hostilities on a player. Whatever choice a player makes from that is all on YOU. You chose the encounter, you weren't forced at gunpoint to attack a player and then make him menu log on you.

 

[GreySix]

Feeling like a "prey" and a "victim" where something is taken from you is all about perspective. I don't feel like anything is taken from me if I'm interdicted and attacked - gameplay is given to me. If a pirate didn't attack me, I would be doing less. The pirate add gameplay, and make a session more dynamic. That is positive.

If you disagree, please argue why it's bad game design.

My only point would be the negligible risk assumed by those taking on the role of aggressor. The risk is assumed almost entirely by the "prey" in this game, which is unbalanced. The "prey" can lose hours of gameplay after mining, or gobs of credits if trading. What risks does the outlaw aggressor face?

Consider what Star Citizen is attempting by contrast: Outlaw gameplay risks in-game prison time (if the outlaw is captured and neutralized), and eventually risks to insurance costs (criminals will face a tougher road recovering their destroyed vessel), and they won't be able to freely traverse lawful systems or land at lawful ports. A form of perma-death is also planned, so reckless gameplay could prove risky to the player.

Meanwhile in ED, at worst a criminal player faces buyback costs ... and ... really, what else of consequence?

 

[Havvk]

My only point would be the negligible risk assumed by those taking on the role of aggressor. The risk is assumed almost entirely by the "prey" in this game, which is unbalanced. The "prey" can lose hours of gameplay after mining, or gobs of credits if trading. What risks does the outlaw aggressor face?

Consider what Star Citizen is attempting by contrast: Outlaw gameplay risks in-game prison time (if the outlaw is captured and neutralized), and eventually risks to insurance costs (criminals will face a tougher road recovering their destroyed vessel), and they won't be able to freely traverse lawful systems or land at lawful ports. A form of perma-death is also planned, so reckless gameplay could prove risky to the player.

Meanwhile in ED, at worst a criminal player faces buyback costs ... and ... really, what else of consequence?

This is what Elite desperately needs, there is no denying it.

I would LOOOOOOOVE for something like this in Elite, I might actually want to PvP for once. Untill then, if my "victims"(player ones I mean) suffer more risk of loss upon failure than I, then never will I ever do that.

 

[Morbad]

Players will also be able to fully interact with other players on a non-combat level.

Full interaction that excludes the potential of combat isn't full interaction though.

The decision to resort to violence is often reached via other interactions and if there is an inexplicable barrier to this it further harms immersion. There are also non-combat interactions that can have a significant impact on the outcome of combat encounters--opposing forces in a CZ, or someone tailing you to report on your position and activities to others, for example.

It's one thing to know, as a player, that there are those working out of sight influencing the setting via the BGS or similar mechanisms. It's quite another for one's in-game CMDR to be confronted with an obvious hostile that is magically immune to harm.

The current mode system is compromised enough. I don't particularly want further dents in my verisimilitude by having to deal with the implications of a PvP/PvE flag system.

I expect that many players are looking for a co-operative experience in this game.

I am and most of my CMDR's interactions with others are.

However, I want in-character interactions to determine this. Predestined alliances are a complete anathema to me in free-form games of this type.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Too bad, we're not playing football when you tell us to. Heck, some of us don't even do sports at all.

Too bad not playing football when you are in your kit, wearing boots and dribbling with the ball?

We already do. I mean that's how we have Canonn, Mobius, IRH and others of various sorts of gameplay styles.

I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about that giant amorphous ball called Open and how people inside it bump into each other.

Because I don't accept you to be in MY game, and if you pop in my game, I will hit "block" and switch modes to remove you from ruining MY game. You have that same power too you know!

Poor guy being molested for cargo but still wants that sweet payout? Pathetic blocking someone actually playing the game. Switching modes in general play is fine, at least with that you are not wasting others time.

I am paying attention, and I'd like for you to to realize that PP was never intended to be direct intense PvP?

If you were paying attention, I was not saying it is currently. What I'm arguing for is that when it happens its actually meaningful. Blocking rivals and menu logging is not fiar in that context.

You wanna proper power play? Just look to U.S. government and play the game how like they act when being a politian. Power play is 4D chess, not checkers yo. It's best done with you playing the BGS, not killing ships.

Have you any idea what you are on about? Why not read my responses and suggestions for Powerplay and get educated. I want parts of Powerplay to have a razor PvP focus, but thats miles on from me at this time wanting any PvP in Powerplay to count and be under sensible rules, even when its double gated already.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You choose to enact hostilities on a player. Whatever choice a player makes from that is all on YOU. You chose the encounter, you weren't forced at gunpoint to attack a player and then make him menu log on you.

Ganking outside of Powerplay is fine if people want to do that, but for piracy its hammering in nails to a coffin, and Powderplay is double gated (you choose Open and choose to pledge).

 

[Havvk]

Too bad not playing football when you are in your kit, wearing boots and dribbling with the ball?

The game I'm playing doesn't even involve a ball. You aren't welcome to my game and no, I won't join yours.

Poor guy being molested for cargo but still wants that sweet payout? Pathetic blocking someone actually playing the game. Switching modes in general play is fine, at least with that you are not wasting others time.

All BGS affects all modes no matter the circumstance. Solo players still affect my game in private because their actions change the BGS of whatever systems I'm in. Grow up and accept it. This isn't a PvP issue, it's an issue you have with how players can "stop" you without being in open. Why not use their own tactics against them? Nothing stopping you.

If you were paying attention, I was not saying it is currently. What I'm arguing for is that when it happens its actually meaningful. Blocking rivals and menu logging is not fiar in that context.

Then it isn't fair if you try to blow me up or steal MY hard earned cargo. It takes 2 to tango, my friend.

Have you any idea what you are on about? Why not read my responses and suggestions for Powerplay and get educated. I want parts of Powerplay to have a razor PvP focus, but thats miles on from me at this time wanting any PvP in Powerplay to count and be under sensible rules, even when its double gated already.

I am educated on powerplay. It's just glorified "simple" bgs playing in a nutshell, and there's nothing you can do or say to change that.

 

[Morbad]

The only OPEN ONLY mode we should have is an Iron man mode. That would shut gankers up real fast as they lose all their creds and precious g5 engineering

I'd play it, but I'm not at all convinced it would deter gankers in the slightest.

Too many other factors make too easy to all but guarantee survival and rapidly progress a reset account, even in the rare case of losing a ship. Few actually dangerous gankers aren't also experienced and highly competent pilots.

 

[Havvk]

I'd play it, but I'm not at all convinced it would deter gankers in the slightest.

Too many other factors make too easy to all but guarantee survival and rapidly progress a reset account, even in the rare case of losing a ship. Few actually dangerous gankers aren't also experienced and highly competent pilots.

It would make them have to slow down their slaughter sooner or later. I know there're some very stinkin rich CMDRs out there, but their wallets aren't infinite. It would also make taking on tougher NPCs a bit more scary. And ATR? Good luck!

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think that's what @Rubbernuke tried to outline in post #525

Ah - that one - reworking the game to change the difficulty level for all players and facilitating predatory play-styles - that was acknowledged to be rather unlikely this late in the day.

 

[MadSinUN]

I can't understand one thing, Robert. Why are most of your arguments and opinions based on the fact that "everything is already done and nothing can be changed"? You don't want any changes? Maybe you are one of the developers working in secret? This is just my impression and it may be wrong?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Ganking outside of Powerplay is fine if people want to do that, but for piracy its hammering in nails to a coffin....

Ganking has been hammering away at those nails since before the game launched.