If done right then yes. If done poorly then you end up like many failed games: good graphics, poor gameplay means a greater likelihood of failure - Ashes of the Singularity for example.
Engineers Why is Elite Failing (in my opinion)? Negative Feedback Loops - An Analysis
- Thread starter Colonel Kenney
- Start date
If done right then yes. If done poorly then you end up like many failed games: good graphics, poor gameplay means a greater likelihood of failure - Ashes of the Singularity for example.
it's at this point it's obvious you know nothing about me, so the rest was always going to be fun.
*scratches head* what gave you the impression I didn't know this very very basic fact?
I know..... I've known this for a number of months now???
*smiles sweetly at you*
Try to read a single thing I post - I've stated countless times that I'm looking fowards to NMS and it's gameplay - I would suggest you take a moment to read the context of what this was posted in response to.
There are only about 5 NMS videos, so that can't have taken you long. It's gameplay may appeal more to you - that's great. To some people other games will appeal more. Doesn't make one right and one wrong - no matter how much you choose to patronise me in the process.
CK is simply being patronising to people who do this for a job, and have done it for some time with some huge successes under their belt. There is literally nothing posted here that is news to anyone it's addressed to. You'll forgive me if I won't take a thread that's basically calling the creators of a game that's sold over a million copies idiots with too much gravitas
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Reasons why Elite is Falling (not failing yet its got enough buffer currently)
1.
Insane Value Curve.
The amount of money you need for the next bigger ship and bigger Weapons is an complete Fail.
You grind like hell to get the next ship which costs like 10 times your current one.
You need twice that because the equipment also costs 10 times your current.
And then after that grind you are maybe 10% stronger.
Result is *dafug did i waste my time for... ragequit*
2.
Cheating AI.
I like challenging AI.
But i hate pushed AI.
90% accuracy on 4km and support thrusters so strong and with such perfect 3d control that they orbit enemies like they are a goddamn moon is not skill. Its cheating and its frustrating.....
3.
No real endgame.
You start with a fighter you end with a fighter.
Even the biggest ship you can get is a front focused fighter.
No stations no capital ships etc.
There is nothing really to reach out there.
We got 4 billion stars why cant we get our own outposts ? Or capital ships etc.
4.
Senseless restrictions and limits.
Why cant we salvage stuff and turn it over to the authority.
Why cant we use cargo space to store materials.
Why cant we trade between players without throwing stuff into deep space
Why cant we hire crew
Why cant we attack and destroy stations
Why cant we build a base to produce goods and sell them
Why cant we use a taxi service to get to our other ships against a taxi fee.
Why cant we travel as wing where one person has control until drop into normal space
Its a Giant Universe.
And its completely wasted because we cant do anything in it.
5.
Weapons are very boring.
There is so much more stuff we could have.
Like Particle Guns and Ion Cannons.
Moreover all weapons force into fighter style meaning the more maneuverable you are the stronger are your weapons which is complete rubbish....
And last.
There is too little stuff to find on exploration.
We cant even takes probes or place satellites in exploration.
We should be able to put up beacons and gather samples of interesting finds
There should be anomalies to find and data to acquire by probing and researching stuff outside known space.
Why have an gigantic 4 billion stars universe.
When you only got roughly 10k people with 1 fighter each.....
We got so much space that each player could own an entire Empire. And we aint even allowed to build a small miningbase.....
1.
Insane Value Curve.
The amount of money you need for the next bigger ship and bigger Weapons is an complete Fail.
You grind like hell to get the next ship which costs like 10 times your current one.
You need twice that because the equipment also costs 10 times your current.
And then after that grind you are maybe 10% stronger.
Result is *dafug did i waste my time for... ragequit*
2.
Cheating AI.
I like challenging AI.
But i hate pushed AI.
90% accuracy on 4km and support thrusters so strong and with such perfect 3d control that they orbit enemies like they are a goddamn moon is not skill. Its cheating and its frustrating.....
3.
No real endgame.
You start with a fighter you end with a fighter.
Even the biggest ship you can get is a front focused fighter.
No stations no capital ships etc.
There is nothing really to reach out there.
We got 4 billion stars why cant we get our own outposts ? Or capital ships etc.
4.
Senseless restrictions and limits.
Why cant we salvage stuff and turn it over to the authority.
Why cant we use cargo space to store materials.
Why cant we trade between players without throwing stuff into deep space
Why cant we hire crew
Why cant we attack and destroy stations
Why cant we build a base to produce goods and sell them
Why cant we use a taxi service to get to our other ships against a taxi fee.
Why cant we travel as wing where one person has control until drop into normal space
Its a Giant Universe.
And its completely wasted because we cant do anything in it.
5.
Weapons are very boring.
There is so much more stuff we could have.
Like Particle Guns and Ion Cannons.
Moreover all weapons force into fighter style meaning the more maneuverable you are the stronger are your weapons which is complete rubbish....
And last.
There is too little stuff to find on exploration.
We cant even takes probes or place satellites in exploration.
We should be able to put up beacons and gather samples of interesting finds
There should be anomalies to find and data to acquire by probing and researching stuff outside known space.
Why have an gigantic 4 billion stars universe.
When you only got roughly 10k people with 1 fighter each.....
We got so much space that each player could own an entire Empire. And we aint even allowed to build a small miningbase.....
Spot on. Repped
Weeeelllll, what you are saying here seems to contradict what you said about NMS on page 14 (procedural ecosystem, Polar Ice caps) so forgive me for misunderstanding your point. There are also way more than 5 videos each with a new tidbit of information so I don't know where you get that number. I'm gonna chalk this up to misunderstanding and leave it at that.
Fly Safe
yeah i think we had a big misunderstanding there. tbh while there's a lot of talk the lack of videos of gameplay drive me nuts - if you watch through them they're mostly rehashes, or all in the same little three planet system. the really disturbing bit is on some of them sean performs almost identical actions on the same planet and it's only about 15 minutes in that you can tell it's really a different playthrough. His different reactions to the different ways people play it are great though. the most interesting was the hour long one that he spent most of saying "no you can't make a zoo" "no it's not our galaxy" etc - they are plagued with misconceptions.
I don't mean to slag it off by the points i made, it's just saying how they're vastly different games aiming at different audiences. SM & DB have said as much and that they don't really see each other as competition - this is my problem with CK's argument it he watches those videos with in his head the rewards and game responses he would enjoy. Other people respond differently to different things - neither is "right", the only wrong is claiming one way is the only way. Some want to name species Awesome McAwesomeface and others to explore the wonders of our own galaxy with friends - they're only available in different games and each to his own choice of reward.
heck i quite enjoyed the void and all that does is look pretty and kick you where it hurts occasionally before you realise slowly and painfully you lost the game 6 hours ago and didn't notice. games are a strange thing - people like subbuteo ?? - the king's quest series went on as long as it did.... meh.
Those are definitely all issues. Some of them have been acknowledged and even DB said they will be in game - they have to be built. "They will come in time". But the fundamental process of thinking and building the game needs to break from the old "overgrind" method and insert more obtainable things.
Crafting is a quick way to do this. Materials are now dropping, and it is fun to collect them after destroying things or exploring ruins etc. Some are rare some are really rare and some are too common.
The issue is "WE" cannot craft them. We need to continue to do all of this work to get someone else to do it. We have to wait to do anything and or "qualify" and then we don't even get results. That needs to be scrapped.
I'll make another post on how I would have done crafting. It makes more sense. Most pilots including fighter pilots know their systems inside and out. They have to know it. They don't know all of the maintenance but out in space they would NEED to know their ships and how they work. Think of any scifi show out there and almost any solo pilot needs to be a jack of all trades unless they are a military pilot with the support and logistics of an entire military.
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NMS is going to be repetitious - there is no way around that. It will be a treadmill too. But there also is infinte variety and fun things to do. I don't like the premise we have to keep traveling. Hopefully there will be a really cool story that drives you to get the answer and that the answer is obtainable.... AND that the answer isn't the same for all people.
Good post.
As seasons roll on, I'm coming round to accepting that my idea of what E D could be, is very different from what FDev intend to implement.
I'll hang around and keep hoping, I'm sure they will release gameplay that I want.
I've mentioned it before but there is such a thing as the Ikea Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect
To me that last bit is The Engineers in a nutshell. In the beta, when I turned up with all my hard-earned top-tier goodies I wanted a NORSBORG but instead I got to roll a dice and got a KNOPPARP.
To me that last bit is The Engineers in a nutshell. In the beta, when I turned up with all my hard-earned top-tier goodies I wanted a NORSBORG but instead I got to roll a dice and got a KNOPPARP.
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Omg IKEA effect! 
Being a swede I've never heard of that before. But reading about it, I understand it. Once assembled, you almost get attached to it with memories unique to the experience. Like when you assembled that Hemnes or Billy and you and your girlfriend broke up because of the crappy instructions you began argue about.
Being a swede I've never heard of that before. But reading about it, I understand it. Once assembled, you almost get attached to it with memories unique to the experience. Like when you assembled that Hemnes or Billy and you and your girlfriend broke up because of the crappy instructions you began argue about.
Hah
very good
Unless we sadly don't assemble anything, it's 100% random, IKEA is better than Engineers in every way.
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
You have GOT to be joking!
Best Ikea gag!
[video=youtube;k7uK7VQCA3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7uK7VQCA3I[/video]
Actually I think he's right. With Engineers, an IKEA bookshelf would be a random bookshelf from a product family and you wouldn't even be able to assemble it yourself.
Let me reformulate:
Regarding the "Ikea effect":
[Their] experiments demonstrate that self-assembly impacts the evaluation of a product by its consumers. The results suggest that when people use their own labor to construct a particular product, even if done badly, they value the end result more than if they had not put any effort into its creation.
...
Additional research has shown that labor leads to higher valuation only when the labor is fruitful. When participants failed to complete a task requiring their own labor, the IKEA effect dissipated.
Ikea is 100% better than Elite Engineers, because at least their product is based on skill, when Engineers upgrade are based on RNG.
Regarding the "Ikea effect":
[Their] experiments demonstrate that self-assembly impacts the evaluation of a product by its consumers. The results suggest that when people use their own labor to construct a particular product, even if done badly, they value the end result more than if they had not put any effort into its creation.
...
Additional research has shown that labor leads to higher valuation only when the labor is fruitful. When participants failed to complete a task requiring their own labor, the IKEA effect dissipated.
Ikea is 100% better than Elite Engineers, because at least their product is based on skill, when Engineers upgrade are based on RNG.
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There is never any 'self assembly' as such in any game, think that's a bit of a mislead.
The question is would you be happy if each tier's results were better separated? so a grade 5 was always better than a 4 and no overlap?
I sometimes get the impression what's going on here is people get 20 rolls together to get that perfect grade 4, then go to grade 5 and the overlap maddens them.
The question is would you be happy if each tier's results were better separated? so a grade 5 was always better than a 4 and no overlap?
I sometimes get the impression what's going on here is people get 20 rolls together to get that perfect grade 4, then go to grade 5 and the overlap maddens them.
.
Well put.
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Actually I think he's right. With Engineers, an IKEA bookshelf would be a random bookshelf from a product family and you wouldn't even be able to assemble it yourself.
Not to forget, it might also be that you get a low quality shelf, which you dispose of the moment you get it, without a chance for a refound.
Actually I think he's right. With Engineers, an IKEA bookshelf would be a random bookshelf from a product family and you wouldn't even be able to assemble it yourself.
And you'd have to go to random shops all around the world to collect the individual parts which may or may not be in stock.
When Engineers was announced and the devs started talking about its core features, they said crafting will be in the game. Do you think Engineers have a crafting feature?