Why is new C&P a thing?

[Lori Jameson]

Most would say, to punish Gankers and Griefers! They are the reason behing C&P right? Frontier are worried about the dedicated PvP crowd picking on everyone else, that I can see. So why does Noteriety and the new outfitter lock exist? Supposedly to keep rich gankers with too much time on their hands. Want to know why this dosen't work well for us plebs?

Time, Effort, and Credits.

The top 1% are not really effected by Noteriety. They are almost always incurring bounties and such on their favorite ships and are quite smart about where they kill. Higher bounties act like high-scores to them.

They have perfect setups on their ships. They don't need Outfitting. They are highly dedicated. Most have 3-4 ships that can perform Combat with varied loadouts. The Engineering Grind is a joke to them.

How do these changes curb griefing? They don't.

New C&P is a mess. It makes illegal missions and BGS tactics barely worth it for us plebs. We have a good few ships, yeah. We are trying out new builds all the time. We use outfitting quite a bit for our dedicated craft, tweaking as we go. Most rarely have duplicate ships. Fewer still have engineered both for the same purpose. The new C&P hits PvE and BGSers' harder than the griefing element.

The latest way 'Criminals' are being put in their place breaks lore and suspension of disbelief. The Outfitting lock...

Supposedly a few CMDRs were using the new 'hot' module system to 'launder' their ships. Yet again exploits ruin everything... So, now we have a busted joke of a system that invalidates its own premise. To help curb CMDR v CMDR crime.

New C&P punishes those who play the game as intended rather harshly. Illegal missions, Spec Ops contracts, Wetwork contracts, and so on are now much more hassle than they are worth! Why would a controlling faction cut my access to Outfitting when I was given a mission by the controlling faction to kill their rivals? Why would they care if I'm wanted by their rivals!?!

Why does Frontier meaure every response of C&P to the actions of the top 1%ers? Why does PvP crime effect PvE crime? Isn't that what Pilots Federation bounties were for? You know, a way to flag CMDR v CMDR crime?

All in all, New C&P causes huge headaches for players following normal paths of gameplay 'playing their way' while managing to do nothing about the griefing problem. If anything it makes it worse!

 

[ilo]

au contraire, new C&P doesn't punish players playing the game as intended.

IT makes you think and plan, actions have consequences, and these were not here before. The new C&P is all about adding risk to crime. It is perfectly doable living with it. People whining about it just wants the old system, where they can just hop in a ship, kill stuff, then go home for dinner.

 

[Lori Jameson]

au contraire, new C&P doesn't punish players playing the game as intended.

IT makes you think and plan, actions have consequences, and these were not here before. The new C&P is all about adding risk to crime. It is perfectly doable living with it. People whining about it just wants the old system, where they can just hop in a ship, kill stuff, then go home for dinner.

Really? All I want is a nuanced system that respects the established lore and political climate. The Old C&P did just that...

I like a few of the C&P changes, don't get me wrong. Most were needed. Though I'd like to be able to kill an established mission target and not have the mission giver reprimand me for it.

The Outfitting lock is total pants. Noterierty makes this worse. Honestly, they shouldn't have both. And yeah, I'd like to hop on to do a few Wetwork jobs and be home for dinner. It's because that makes sense, my dinner was paid for by the faction I live under.

And yes it does punish players for playing as intended.

 

[master_xean]

Its to be a nuisance and be time consuming like most of the mechanics in ED.

 

[ilo]

C&P in my opinion is OK as it is, what I think is missing is a few pages of documentation on how to be smart when picking up missions and other kind of game manuals, really. It is not that hard, it is not a nuisance, it changes a few things. If you are an in-game criminal you should know there was barely no consequences for crime. If not it doesn't affect you.

 

[Lori Jameson]

How is locking a CMDR, who is wanted in Federal space mind you, being refused outfitting permission in Alliance space even remotely ok? 3.0 C&P was buggy, though near perfect... I miss it. They should've kept 'hot' modules and sane outfitting rules.

So yeah, I miss 3.0 C&P. At least the risks made sense! Noteriety wasn't a huge issue if you kept a decent head about you.

 

[ilo]

How is locking a CMDR, who is wanted in Federal space mind you, being refused outfitting permission in Alliance space even remotely ok? 3.0 C&P was buggy, though near perfect... I miss it. They should've kept 'hot' modules and sane outfitting rules.

So yeah, I miss 3.0 C&P. At least the risks made sense!

well, that part is actually being reviewed. Other than that outfitting lock, why is so -buggy-?

 

[Lori Jameson]

well, that part is actually being reviewed. Other than that outfitting lock, why is so -buggy-?

Power Bounties affecting non PP gameplay, Bounties being delayed, SLFs trolling C&P, the list goes on. Most of which is fixed.
That's all they needed to do. 3.0 C&P vs 3.0.3 C&P, the former had nuance, the latter is less buggy.

 

[ilo]

Power Bounties affecting non PP gameplay, Bounties being delayed, SLFs trolling C&P, the list goes on.

- power bounties have been fixed IIRC.
- bounties delayed, I have no idea what is this, sorry.
- SLF trolling C&P? no sir, it was the consequence of destroying a non-scanned ship (because you didn't scan the SLF), should be fixed too.
- what else?

 

[CMDR Malkov]

I don't think the main motivation was to deter gankers and griefers - having separate modes means anybody can avoid that side of the game if they so wish.

It's good to have consequences for your actions. Kids often think it's great to enable god mode in games but often they come to realize that they just cheated themselves out of a game. People who get bored with Elite sometimes wipe their save and play in Iron Man mode because it is so much more engaging when the consequences are real.

 

[Lori Jameson]

- power bounties have been fixed IIRC.
- bounties delayed, I have no idea what is this, sorry.
- SLF trolling C&P? no sir, it was the consequence of destroying a non-scanned ship (because you didn't scan the SLF), should be fixed too.
- what else?

Firstly, I'm not a sir. Secondly, you seem more keen on baiting me instead of discussing the issue.

 

[ilo]

Firstly, I'm not a sir. Secondly, you seem more keen on baiting me instead of discussing the issue.

ok, sorry for the 'sir' part, was trying to be polite. Second, if you think so then I'll stop talking, in the mean time feel free to add what else is left on the list of broken stuff in the C&P, please.

 

[Lori Jameson]

ok, sorry for the 'sir' part, was trying to be polite. Second, if you think so then I'll stop talking, in the mean time feel free to add what else is left on the list of broken stuff in the C&P, please.

Superpower bounties are much more economical than the 3.0 bounties as they lack scaling, Noteriety is either too harsh or too easy depending on how you play, NPCs are too easy to accidentally damage (and if a pirate kills them later, you get tagged with murder).

You get the point. 3.0 had nuance, 3.0.3 is less buggy. We need the nuances of jurisdictions to come back into play.

Nuance the outfitting lock and fix SP bounty scaling. This should help the PvE side and make SP bounties in-line with everything else.

 

[Spacecat]

Yeah, the old system was bad, but FD seems to like to come up with the most unnecessarily convoluted fixes to everything. To their credit, they do usually listen to feedback and make adjustments, eventually.

 

[Lori Jameson]

Yeah, the old system was bad, but FD seems to like to come up with the most unnecessarily convoluted fixes to everything. To their credit, they do usually listen to feedback and make adjustments, eventually.

Yeah, it only took a year or so last time. No rush right?

 

[Hadet]

C&P was fine before this update they just didn't make the documentation involving the system all that readily available there's no ingame source of information for how it works like a lot of things in the game. They expect people to hop on the forums or figure it out themselves, and when people starting 'ing about their ships being stuck hot and modules having to be cleaned because they didn't read the patch notes that caused this uproar. If players quit out of confusion they won't buy cosmetics and Frontier makes no money, thus they changed the system entirely after 2 weeks. Reactionary updates are FDev's biggest folly. If we had a 24/7 test server we could log into whenever to literally test everything in the game with no risk to our Saves we would see bugs reported faster and a lot more cooperation between players and FDEv to report exploits.

 

[CMDR Beni Stingray]

Hahaha funny read but youre wrong, C&P was never intended to punish Cmdr vs Cmdr actions! It was introduced to have consequences for crime, hence the name Crime & Punishment, you just dont like that your criminal actions now have consequences.

Karma system comes later

 

[Adhock]

Oh good lord...

So essentially you're telling me you're too lazy to ensure you're not looking before you leap.

Under the old system, you incurred bounties and fines for specific things.

That's the consequences.

And it was easy to avoid those consequences as long as you had the money.

Griefers padded their bank accounts to ensure that no matter what kind of money they racked up, they could just pay it off and be clean again. So could everyone else.

In the second iteration of C&P before this one, a more elaborate system was put into place that prevented one from paying off their bounty. This made crime have even LESS consequences with the use of the Suicidewinder. Buy a cheap ship, suicide to system authority, you start with a clean slate and only incur at 10k penalty to you.

So now you could commit crime with little to no consequences because the System Authority was a joke and could be easily killed like all the other NPC's.

Hell when Engineers dropped they encouraged Cop Killing with System Authority being the only place to obtain a certain material used in Engineering.

So you went from being able to get away scott free by paying your own bounty to paying EVEN LESS for a cheap ship depending on the size of the bounty against you. Cops were pointless to have in the game since they were no harder then any other NPC and Frontier encouraged the killing of through Engineers.

Ultimately? You could easily get away with anything as long as you had the money. You didn't even need to think about what you were doing. "Lawful" space which was supposed to be the most secure space in Elite was a joke. Gankers went were they pleased and shot up whomever they wished and suffered nothing for it.

Welcome to 3.0 and the most draconian system available.

It gives weight to your crimes. It makes you think about whether or not you should risk your 'Clean' status. Because if you do, you'll find yourself not only locked out of the outfitters but it will hit you square in the wallet where it hurts the most. If you're not smart and savvy enough then of course it's going to break you.

Smart Griefers who've been doing this test the system. They learn how it works. Then they can defeat it. I've already worked out how myself and it's elaborate and genius. The fact it's so elaborate means it acts as a deterrent making lawful space that much more safer.

Those who just mindlessly grab whatever they want because before there were no consequences are in for a rude surprise because your actions now have weight.

I read your OP and I see someone who thought they could get away with anything because they originally did. Now you have a system that forces you to think and plan and you're upset because you no longer can just get away with whatever you wanted anymore. You've got to be smart and ruthless.

Does the new system need clarification? Certainly. There are a few things I'm a bit sketchy on myself but finally Frontier have given the Law the teeth it needs and they HURT when you get caught.

Criminals have had it easy for too long. Now they fly in a more dangerous galaxy just like the rest of us.

So quit your whining. Read your mission briefing. Look at the jurisdictions. AND PLAN.

The best assassinations and murder sprees were those where the killers had planned ahead. Hence why they never got caught.

It's not hard to look at the mission destination, look at your galaxy map, determine if the faction you're working for has a presence in the system, and not bite the hand that feeds you.

There is a whole cluster of independent systems to the galactic 'west' of the bubble for you to get used to the new changes as Superpower jurisdictions add a whole new dynamic. Everyone complains 'Galaxy Wide, Inch Deep'. Well here's a game changer with multiple layers and you're complaining it's too hard and complex.

Make up your minds. You get bored when it's simple and whine when it's too complex.

Here's simple for you. You wanna be a criminal? Base yourself in an Anarchy system where you can't be touched and take missions that strike at people outside the system.

Otherwise don't touch the missions that brief you as 'illegal actions' in bright red letters.

 

[master_xean]

Oh good lord...

So essentially you're telling me you're too lazy to ensure you're not looking before you leap.

Under the old system, you incurred bounties and fines for specific things.

That's the consequences.

And it was easy to avoid those consequences as long as you had the money.

Griefers padded their bank accounts to ensure that no matter what kind of money they racked up, they could just pay it off and be clean again. So could everyone else.

In the second iteration of C&P before this one, a more elaborate system was put into place that prevented one from paying off their bounty. This made crime have even LESS consequences with the use of the Suicidewinder. Buy a cheap ship, suicide to system authority, you start with a clean slate and only incur at 10k penalty to you.

So now you could commit crime with little to no consequences because the System Authority was a joke and could be easily killed like all the other NPC's.

Hell when Engineers dropped they encouraged Cop Killing with System Authority being the only place to obtain a certain material used in Engineering.

So you went from being able to get away scott free by paying your own bounty to paying EVEN LESS for a cheap ship depending on the size of the bounty against you. Cops were pointless to have in the game since they were no harder then any other NPC and Frontier encouraged the killing of through Engineers.

Ultimately? You could easily get away with anything as long as you had the money. You didn't even need to think about what you were doing. "Lawful" space which was supposed to be the most secure space in Elite was a joke. Gankers went were they pleased and shot up whomever they wished and suffered nothing for it.

Welcome to 3.0 and the most draconian system available.

It gives weight to your crimes. It makes you think about whether or not you should risk your 'Clean' status. Because if you do, you'll find yourself not only locked out of the outfitters but it will hit you square in the wallet where it hurts the most. If you're not smart and savvy enough then of course it's going to break you.

Smart Griefers who've been doing this test the system. They learn how it works. Then they can defeat it. I've already worked out how myself and it's elaborate and genius. The fact it's so elaborate means it acts as a deterrent making lawful space that much more safer.

Those who just mindlessly grab whatever they want because before there were no consequences are in for a rude surprise because your actions now have weight.

I read your OP and I see someone who thought they could get away with anything because they originally did. Now you have a system that forces you to think and plan and you're upset because you no longer can just get away with whatever you wanted anymore. You've got to be smart and ruthless.

Does the new system need clarification? Certainly. There are a few things I'm a bit sketchy on myself but finally Frontier have given the Law the teeth it needs and they HURT when you get caught.

Criminals have had it easy for too long. Now they fly in a more dangerous galaxy just like the rest of us.

So quit your whining. Read your mission briefing. Look at the jurisdictions. AND PLAN.

The best assassinations and murder sprees were those where the killers had planned ahead. Hence why they never got caught.

It's not hard to look at the mission destination, look at your galaxy map, determine if the faction you're working for has a presence in the system, and not bite the hand that feeds you.

There is a whole cluster of independent systems to the galactic 'west' of the bubble for you to get used to the new changes as Superpower jurisdictions add a whole new dynamic. Everyone complains 'Galaxy Wide, Inch Deep'. Well here's a game changer with multiple layers and you're complaining it's too hard and complex.

Make up your minds. You get bored when it's simple and whine when it's too complex.

Here's simple for you. You wanna be a criminal? Base yourself in an Anarchy system where you can't be touched and take missions that strike at people outside the system.

Otherwise don't touch the missions that brief you as 'illegal actions' in bright red letters.

just lol

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Old system was good because you coul void any consequences. As before with NPC AI devs are bit themselves to blame for players to grow careless.