Why is 'space legs' so technically difficult?

[Jenner]

For how long do you guess? Two weeks perhaps, if you're lucky?

If there is *no* added gameplay then I still think it's worth it, so long as it's not a requirement. Immersion for immersion's sake isn't necessarily a bad thing. If it's not your thing you could just skip it. The game has been out for years now - FD are not going to add anything like legs in a manner that would completely change the status quo. You're not going to have to dock, find an elevator, descend 10 levels, pass a dialog skill check with a bartender, and then finally get presented with a mission list.

I would hope that FD would come up with some compelling on-foot gameplay, though. While I'd love legs as little more than a novelty feature - a one off immersion thing - I think we all can and should expect more.

 

[NeilF]

How long you can enjoy combat in ED? Or trading? Or mining?

How long can you enjoy combat in ED with no other mechanics, other than moving around?

How long can you enjoy trading in ED with no other mechanics, other than moving around?

How long can you enjoy mining in ED with no other mechanics, other than moving around?

See a pattern? It's what you can do when moving around that's quite a key factor to how enjoyable it is...


Again, there's sooooo very much in the core game that's bare minimum and/or NOT EVEN THERE... Please let's not invent an entire new area for placeholder gameplay to be created. Please...

 

[Kaltern]

I think a lot of people are forgetting something quite important in these discussions.

Let's reflect on the past for just a moment. Eve. They brought in a very limited spacelegs type thing, probably hoping to make more with it. It failed, spectacularly, because in that specific game, it was a pointless waste of developer time. They just didn't know it would be at the time.

Fast forward to today. Star Citizen. It has space legs - in fact the entire 'game' is (supposed to be) centred around this particular fact. Ships, stations, planet ... they've all been designed for something bipedal to walk around in. It isn't an add on - the entire 'game' concept revolves around you being able to walk.

Now lets look at Elite. From the very beginning, you have been stuck in your chair. Nothing in your ship is interactive with your avatar, only your controls. You cannot leave your seat for any reason. If you have VR, you can move around as if you were a camera drone (which can also phase through objects and ship hulls...), but that isn't 'legs' as you can't Do anything. So clearly, the game has never been designed with bipedal motion in mind at any stage - regardless of any promotional videos you might have seen.

And so Frontier would need to ask the question: Is it FINANCIALLY viable for us to spend a LOT of time and effort, which could be going into other more important or desired features, which would be far easier to implement and would take half the time - and thus half the cost - to create a feature that would ALSO require us to add MORE content to the game, make substantial changes to how places like stations and ships work, and may ultimately NOT make us as much money as we would need to cover the initial costs of development?

And I would imagine the answer is no.

Considering the amount of effort poured into the Eve legs system, and the insane amount of work that is well, causing SC to fail completely, the concept of designing a similar system for Elite is, quite simply, staggering.

It would HAVE to be a paid update, and I would imagine it would cost a minimum of £29.99. You have to also consider that, unlike say World of Warcraft or other longstanding games, Elite doesn't really have the same player numbers as these games, which can pump out expansion after expansion every year or so. Also, developing such expansions probably doesn't cost quite as much as such an indepth and complicated update like Spacelegs.

So Frontier would simply have to work out if they could reclaim at least the cost of development for a Spacelegs expansion, and make a profit that would be worthwhile. Breaking even or making just a few percent profits isn't going to be worth the development time, and considering how many people are STILL complaining about buying Horizons, I personally can't see developing Spacelegs being worth their time or money.

It doesn't matter if it would make the game 'better' or 'fun' - if it isn't going to benefit shareholder coffers, it isn't going to happen.

 

[Ian Skippy]

It seems like you probably didn't read my post. Which is fine. It was long.

Heres the short version: I don't like they way they did the SRV or the way they've handled gravity variation in the game so far.

There is a difference between 'not liking something' and 'there not being any depth'. In ED gravity varies. It effects the handling of ships and SRV. In the case of the SRV, it ranges from 'being able to orbit a planet in a little buggy' to 'barely being able to get a feet off the ground'. You called that 'just a slight variation', which is patently false to the point of absurdity, and only presented as such because 'you dont like it'. Which is dishonest. I am not 'slagging off' NMS. I am pointing out that pretty much every technical hurdle when it comes to space, science and physics is competely ignored on every conceivable level. Gravity is pretty much fixed. There are no orbits, planets are not based on any actual principles, there is no concept of zero G spaceflight etc etc etc. There is zero difference between atmo planets like ELWs and simple moons in the flight model, other than a simple gaphical effect. You may like it, you may not like it.

But lets keep this at least somewhat honest: the design of ED is vastly more complex than that of NMS, with far greater and more complex technical hurdles being overcome. You may 'not like it', but that is no excuse for intentionally misrepresenting the state of affairs. The fact that I can get my SRV into orbit on one planet, and it drives totally different on another, is not a 'weird obscure under-the-hood detail' or 'a slight variation'. That is just you being blatantly dishonest.

 

[Patrick_68000]

And you don't think after 30mins of walking down yet another corridor much like the last 5, knowing you now have 30mins of walking back to your ship... that you won't feel like you've then been there and done it?

Yes, there is a risk of repetition for sure

 

[Patrick_68000]

For how long do you guess? Two weeks perhaps, if you're lucky?

Indeed, there is a risk. But 2-3 times by month, to walk around the ship in a station would be like an inspection visit, certainly nice.

 

[RamirezKurita]

It would HAVE to be a paid update, and I would imagine it would cost a minimum of £29.99. You have to also consider that, unlike say World of Warcraft or other longstanding games, Elite doesn't really have the same player numbers as these games, which can pump out expansion after expansion every year or so. Also, developing such expansions probably doesn't cost quite as much as such an indepth and complicated update like Spacelegs.

So Frontier would simply have to work out if they could reclaim at least the cost of development for a Spacelegs expansion, and make a profit that would be worthwhile. Breaking even or making just a few percent profits isn't going to be worth the development time, and considering how many people are STILL complaining about buying Horizons, I personally can't see developing Spacelegs being worth their time or money.

It doesn't matter if it would make the game 'better' or 'fun' - if it isn't going to benefit shareholder coffers, it isn't going to happen.

I'd go further than simply paid update and simply make the whole thing a standalone expansion to Elite, capable of being bought separately and enjoyed as its own game while also being integrated enough such that players who own both games can shift between the two of them. Warframe has clearly shown that procedural legs based shooters have a potential market, and obviously Elite Feet would have its own spin on the formula. They could even do it as a 2nd kickstarter to judge interest and raise additional funds for the several years of work for 100-200 strong development team would require.

 

[Old Duck]

But if so, then walking would require a lot more coding effort compared to current SRV functionality - to look even remotely convincing...

I know we're all software developers in this forum, however I think only Frontier knows if "walking would require a lot more coding effort compared to current SRV functionality." They've already invested a surprising amount of effort into holome, especially if we never going ever leave our chairs, so "coding effort" is perhaps not the best argument to make against 'space legs'.

 

[Tarman]

I know we're all software developers in this forum, however I think only Frontier knows if "walking would require a lot more coding effort compared to current SRV functionality." They've already invested a surprising amount of effort into holome, especially if we never going ever leave our chairs, so "coding effort" is perhaps not the best argument to make against 'space legs'.

Which of us designed your elephant butt leather? The more I see it the less it seems like a bug and more of an exclusive feature. Terran creature skin must be really expensive unless you got some kind of cheap cloned knockoff.

 

[Strangepork]

Because there's more to it than simply changing the point of view of the player

FD employ anyone who can't get a job at Cambridge uni. A lovely bunch of phd students and scientists who are delightfully clueless about gameplay... Maybe.

 

[askavir]

From Holome animations to convincing movements is still a long way. I'm not a developer but some things can be quite easily imagined by common sense.

It's not like having characters moving around is some kind of groundbreaking new thing that has never been done before... I think there might be at least a couple games out there that did it Not saying it's easy or hard, just saying thousands of others have proven that it's not exactly some insurmountable barrier.

So I would wager that if many thousands of other games managed to do walking, running, sprinting, crouching, jumping 3D characters for over twenty years now, I guess FD will somehow be able to do it too.

 

[Lestat]

I think frontier has walking already solved. If we look at Frontier 2 other games. Planet Coaster and Jurassic World with the Dianasores. Looking at both games. It not hard to use the same feature make Players and NPC walk around. [video=youtube;cJYqeX5-lZo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJYqeX5-lZo[/video]

 

[Rochester]

With the very early statements from FD that they could do space-legs but they wanted to do it right, and various storyboards showing EVA and a few animations they most likely have had it on the back burner for some years.

Their recent confirmation that they are now working on something big that's been in pre-development, plus recent Galnet articles about the Duradrive personal computer its most likely, although its speculative space legs is around the corner either in q5 or later 2019...?

The Duradrive news fits in with FD methods of content realise.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Glr71X-cr84

http://remlok-industries.fr/6076/original-concepts-discussions-future-of-elite/?lang=en

https://news.galnet.fr/duradrive-enters-production/

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

With the very early statements from FD that they could do space-legs but there was nothing to do, and various storyboards showing EVA and a few animations they most likely have had it on the back burner for some years.

Their recent confirmation that they are now working on something big that's been in pre-development plus recent Galnet articles about the Duradrive personal computer its most likely although its speculative space legs is around the corner either in q5 or later 2019...

The Duradrive news fits with FD methods of content realise.

http://remlok-industries.fr/6076/original-concepts-discussions-future-of-elite/?lang=en
https://news.galnet.fr/duradrive-enters-production/

Q5? When will that be.

Personally I expect more landable planets before we get space legs.

 

[Alyssa]

Yes. For my part I would be very happy to move around the ship, and in the ship and in the space stations.

That would be enough for my happiness.

Same here.

 

[[VR] Goooost]

I think they're afraid of releasing space legs without anything to do with them. I think a good midpoint however would be "space leg moments" where you get canned animations for certain actions like getting into a fighter or SRV, changing seats or entering the ship (on game launch or when you switch ships)

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

With the very early statements from FD that they could do space-legs but there was nothing to do, and various storyboards showing EVA and a few animations they most likely have had it on the back burner for some years.

Their recent confirmation that they are now working on something big that's been in pre-development plus recent Galnet articles about the Duradrive personal computer its most likely although its speculative space legs is around the corner either in q5 or later 2019...

The Duradrive news fits with FD methods of content realise.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Glr71X-cr84

http://remlok-industries.fr/6076/original-concepts-discussions-future-of-elite/?lang=en

https://news.galnet.fr/duradrive-enters-production/

I think that's where CODEX will be stored, as it is personal information and so far we don't have anything but ship / SRV interface.

That other competing product however is clearly meant to be space legs interface. Although I feel FD set up their CG to fail because they were doing Duradrive first anyway

Q5? When will that be.

Personally I expect more landable planets before we get space legs.

I think it will happen in parallel. More landable planets - sans Earth likes - can be easily added while working for ship walking for example.

I think frontier has walking already solved. If we look at Frontier 2 other games. Planet Coaster and Jurassic World with the Dianasores. Looking at both games. It not hard to use the same feature make Players and NPC walk around.

Not only that. FD have invested heavily in crowd simulation for both of those games. This is something that will be required for ED to populate areas as well. There was even a presentation of FD dev talking about their research and how they did visitors for both of those games.

 

[Rochester]

I think that's where CODEX will be stored, as it is personal information and so far we don't have anything but ship / SRV interface.

That other competing product however is clearly meant to be space legs interface. Although I feel FD set up their CG to fail because they were doing Duradrive first anyway .

That's most likely the truth of it. Well put double rep.

I'm interested to see either and how they fit into the visual style of ED...

 

[Deareim]

Will be so happy to have spacelegs on huge empty planet and mine phospherus with my pickaxe. So much emergent gameplay.

 

[askavir]

Of course there are such games but then they have body movement as part of their main theme. Or ask yourself why Lara Croft has no planes or UFOs including sophisticated flight physics. What I see below, Jurassic World Evolution, looks pretty much like cut scenes (from above, I don't have this game) and if I'm right has nothing to do with controlled movements that also need to respect ED's gravity representation. Far off. And of course there are thousands of games with really bad walking implementations, something you certainly won't want to see in ED.

In short, you guys just over-simplify human body movement simulations in your fantasy. Real coders can't use this trick...

The very same could be said about the SRV, after all Microsoft Flight Simulator doesn't have any dune buggies either, and yet there it is, less than a year after the initial release, a planetary land vehicle, available to all (that purchased horizons).

More importantly, the devs themselves have stated in this very forum that adding first person is not a problem, it's adding things to do and all the associated assets and models that will take time. And while we keep debating the feasability or lack of it of something that the devs themselves stated it would be done (including as sales pitches to sells LEPs), starting with FD's CEO, other games are doing it in several degrees, several are in early access, some others nearing release. If it's easy or hard, yes I believe it's not easy, but since when anything worthwhile was ever easy? Certainly FD won't increase sales or the player base by just keeping adding weapons sizes, Chieftain clones, or USSs with slightly different flying flowers.

If it will be good, only time will tell. But speaking of this issue like if it was some kind of dream fantasy made up by some players, when the whole thing was only born and became a subject of hope, hype and eternal discussion because Frontier itself said multiple times it would be a thing (including as sales pitches to sell LEPs), it's a bit of a "flat-earthy" kind of denial.