Why play online?

[macdog]

Given that there are 55 systems and it's easy to earn credits shouldn't we be seeing PvP Open Arena everywhere already if we don't disagree with you by your logic? I've been playing Open almost exclusively since there was a choice and have seen no PvP action. By what mechanism will it turn into a PvP arena with 500 systems if it hasn't turned into one with 55 (never mind billions when they're opened up)?

I must admit, I haven't seen much pvp outside of freeport either. I have seen the tears of its victims though (outside of freeport) so it is happening, which is no bad thing IMO.

I also agree the scale of the game should be a massively diluting factor to this. Still hard for any of us to know how that will manifest itself, will choke-points or hubs naturally develop for example?

I guess I'm sceptical we will find people taking the unnecessary risk of, for example, hauling millions of CR of goods in a Lakon-9 in open, when they could do so with substantially less risk and no downside in solo. (that is how the mechanics work today, I know this may change).

 

[Jorlin]

And what does repeating the same discussion on a weekly basis achieve?

giving me something to read

 

[macdog]

I've only seen thread about griefers in Freeport. There are other anarchy systems, can you point me to the threads about griefers in those?

my guess is that freeport gets the most traffic hence is most popular for people looking for pvp (I wont get drawn into what is and isn't griefing). I've been playing without looking for pvp so far and its the only anarchy system I had been to until yesterday.

 

[Seonid]

I guess I'm sceptical we will find people taking the unnecessary risk of, for example, hauling millions of CR of goods in a Lakon-9 in open

Some of us want that risk and the previous Beta (you know, the one with no Solo mode, no law enforcement, stations armed with nerf guns and so on) proved that it could be done.

 

[macdog]

The discussion revolves around the contention that there is some sort of problem associated with players being able to choose which of the three online modes to play in on a session by session basis using the group switching mechanic.

Have you even been reading my posts? You know, the ones where I say that what concerns me is the end result and one "fix" is to change the toggle, but it could be done in other ways.

You may not agree with what I regard as a "problem", but I am saying the toggle its self isn't necessarily the problem.

 

[macdog]

Some of us want that risk and the previous Beta (you know, the one with no Solo mode, no law enforcement, stations armed with nerf guns and so on) proved that it could be done.

I'm sure it could be done, that's kinda my point (well maybe not my actual point, but I agree with what you have said). But are you suggesting that, with the mechanics as they are today, all open carries the same risk as solo? Are you suggesting that doing so in all open offers more reward than in solo?

edit: sorry, I didn't address you whole post. I appreciate that some may like the risk, but its my assertion that this will be an extremely (near zero) minority under current mechanics.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Have you even been reading my posts? You know, the ones where I say that what concerns me is the end result and one "fix" is to change the toggle, but it could be done in other ways.

You may not agree with what I regard as a "problem", but I am saying the toggle its self isn't necessarily the problem.

I'll go back through all 54 of them and get back to you....

It won't be tonight though.

 

[macdog]

And what does repeating the same discussion on a weekly basis achieve?

hey I'm new here, so not weekly for me. If you don't think its worth posting don't. Please don't take this in any way as me asking you to go away, rather I don't understand why people go out of their way to read and post in threads they think are pointless.

If this was a thread about something else and got hijacked I would see why, but given the OP, this does seem on topic.

 

[macdog]

I'll go back through all 54 of them and get back to you....

It won't be tonight though.

haha ok. you don't have the read them all, just the ones in direct reply to you should be enough (and in fact ones I "think" you have replied to)!

 

[Seonid]

But are you suggesting that, with the mechanics as they are today, all open carries the same risk as solo?

That depends on whom you ask, notwithstanding the fact that large elements of game mechanics are not yet implemented, so we simply don't know yet how things will turn out. What we do know however, is that freely switching between groups was a very early design decision and regardless of all the discussions, I personally don't think it will change. The legendary "Yaw" thread clearly showed that FD will not deviate from what they consider to be part of the game that they want to make.

 

[Carcharodon]

I must admit, I haven't seen much pvp outside of freeport either. I have seen the tears of its victims though (outside of freeport) so it is happening, which is no bad thing IMO.

I also agree the scale of the game should be a massively diluting factor to this. Still hard for any of us to know how that will manifest itself, will choke-points or hubs naturally develop for example?

I guess I'm sceptical we will find people taking the unnecessary risk of, for example, hauling millions of CR of goods in a Lakon-9 in open, when they could do so with substantially less risk and no downside in solo. (that is how the mechanics work today, I know this may change).

FWIW I think taking something like a Hauler full of anything more valuable than Algae into an Anarchy system should end in tears. PCs are not be required for this, it was true in all previous Elite games and they only had NPCs. The current situation is a by product of a) being able to outrun interdictions easily and b) PC station camping not being punished (stations were safe havens in the previous games)

What I don't get about your last paragraph is why you think the same person who would avoid risk in a Solo Type 9 would then switch to Open and start looking for trouble?

 

[W0OCQCK]

Hey Macdog, I just want to say I don't really understand you concern about "All Play" becoming an arena style pvp area. It will not be an arena style pvp area mostly because it a pretty damn big area. Actually it's too big to be an arena by virtually anyone's definition.

Now everyone that chooses to play in all play just needs to remember one thing. You can die for pretty much any reason, at any time. This is a fact!

No matter what safe guards, or guns they put on stations, or policing measures they put in place to temper this. It will always be the "Wild West Type Environment". As it should be. It can be a whole lot of fun to play in these types of environments, I can attest to that first hand. I honestly believe once you graduate to this area, you'll probably never go back. It's much more exciting in all play, After it's the real world of Elite Dangerous". David or Frontier hasn't misled anyone, any player can do pretty much anything they want in all play. In what game have you seen a PVP arena where you can spawn, take off, and just keep on going, to the far reaches of billions of solar systems. This is not an arena, oh yea the PVP in places may be very intense, but not every where, and is a freak en huge galaxy.

But the brilliance here is if you want to go back to solo, or your friendly group you can. When you feel you need to retreat for a bit you can, or you can retreat for good if you like and still enjoy the game how you want. This is priceless.

 

[macdog]

What I don't get about your last paragraph is why you think the same person who would avoid risk in a Solo Type 9 would then switch to Open and start looking for trouble?

Its an obvious (to me) meta for anyone who wants to pvp. Clearly when they are hauling they are probably not looking for pvp, so will chose solo/private group.

Remember, pvp-ers aren't born in vipers with CR 100M in the bank. They will need to do something to make CR which as things stands looks like it would be done in solo (literally no reason not to) and then flip to pvp, buy a viper and go from there...flipping back to solo for the next trade haul.

 

[macdog]

Hey Macdog, I just want to say I don't really understand you concern about "All Play" becoming an arena style pvp area. It will not be an arena style pvp area mostly because it a pretty damn big area. Actually it's too big to be an arena by virtually anyone's definition.

Now everyone that chooses to play in all play just needs to remember one thing. You can die for pretty much any reason, at any time. This is a fact!
No matter what safe guards, or guns they put on stations, or policing measures they put in place to temper this. It will always be the "Wild West Type Environment". As it should be. It can be a whole lot of fun to play in these types of environments, I can attest to that first hand. I honestly believe once you graduate to this area, you'll probably never go back. It's much more exciting in all play, After it's the real world of Elite Dangerous". David or Frontier hasn't misled anyone, any player can do pretty much anything they want in all play. In what game have you seen a PVP arena where you can spawn, take off, and just keep on going, to the far reaches of billions of solar systems. This is not an arena, oh yea the PVP in places may be very intense, but not every where, and is a freak en huge galaxy.

Hey. Yeah I may have picked a bad term to use, but was the closest I could think of that kinda fitted what I was trying to say.

I'm not saying it will literally be a pvp arena like you get in some games (with boundaries, scores, teams, whatever). What I am saying is that as things stand, unless you are looking to player kill there is literally no incentive to be in all open and every incentive to be in solo/private.

Logic dictates that most people will perform activities such as hauling in solo, and only come to all open when they are looking for a fight.

 

[macdog]

That depends on whom you ask

eh? Unless I have a basic premise wrong (which is today solo and all open are identical apart from player grouping) then I'd like to hear someone honestly say hauling is riskier in solo.

notwithstanding the fact that large elements of game mechanics are not yet implemented, so we simply don't know yet how things will turn out. What we do know however, is that freely switching between groups was a very early design decision and regardless of all the discussions, I personally don't think it will change. The legendary "Yaw" thread clearly showed that FD will not deviate from what they consider to be part of the game that they want to make.

I get that we don't/can't know how it will turn out, been saying that since my first post, so we agree here. You are focussing on free switching, which may very well not change, but as I have said many times, the balancing factors could take other forms.

 

[Jorlin]

switching modes is as abusable for "trading heavy" players as multiple characters for "pirating heavy" ones....

 

[macdog]

switching modes is as abusable for "trading heavy" players as multiple characters for "pirating heavy" ones....

true. and the only way to address that would be to actually split the "universes" altogether (ie, a solo shard and an all open shard) which is I gather infinitely less likely to happen then any else discussed in this thread!

What that does suggest is that changing the toggle will only have limited benefit. However, other balancing measures would still be valid (ie, incentives to do x in all open). That is if you prefer a more balanced all open environment as opposed to one exclusively aimed at combat.

 

[W0OCQCK]

Hey. Yeah I may have picked a bad term to use, but was the closest I could think of that kinda fitted what I was trying to say.

I'm not saying it will literally be a pvp arena like you get in some games (with boundaries, scores, teams, whatever). What I am saying is that as things stand, unless you are looking to player kill there is literally no incentive to be in all open and every incentive to be in solo/private.

Logic dictates that most people will perform activities such as hauling in solo, and only come to all open when they are looking for a fight.

Ya know a hauler is going to be easy to kill, no matter who's flying it, NPC or PC. Since the entirety of all play is stocked to the brim with NPC haulers, I guess some players or pirates just can't continue with out there PC tears, yes?

Since the NPC Haulers are all over the place, could you please explain why it's necessary for the PC haulers to be present in All Play to ensure the success of the game?

PS Oh yes one last thing, since my altercation I had with you yesterday, my forum name magically became W0OCQCK, insted of W0ODCQCK. Did you have anything to do with that??? Woodcock is my mothers maiden name, Woodcock is a common name here in the US, there's thousands of us, all with the real life name of Woodcock, it makes reference to a wooden statue of a male chicken, no sexual reference what so ever.

 

[macdog]

Since the NPC Haulers are all over the place, could you please explain why it's necessary for the PC haulers to be present in All Play to ensure the success of the game?

I know NPC haulers are everywhere, I've been shooting and looting them myself.

I'm not saying the success of the game rides completely on this point, but I do very much think that IF it results in pve in solo/pvp in open, then the open mode will be all the much weaker for it.

Also, don't assume that I am coming from this purely from a perspective that I want to hang around docking bays shooting haulers. I, just like everyone else, would need to haul stuff too.

 

[Jorlin]

true. and the only way to address that would be to actually split the "universes" altogether (ie, a solo shard and an all open shard) which is I gather infinitely less likely to happen then any else discussed in this thread!

What that does suggest is that changing the toggle will only have limited benefit. However, other balancing measures would still be valid (ie, incentives to do x in all open). That is if you prefer a more balanced all open environment as opposed to one exclusively aimed at combat.

Although i'm a "single char" player that likes his toon to take responsibility for all his actions, there is no way to limit "open" chars to a single one.
I'm totally sure that the absolute majority wants multiple chars... and thats OK.
But if "pirates" or "PKs" (sorry to name both in the same sentence) have a way to fund their activities, bypassing the negative effects of their deeds, you can't argue against solo mode as "the easy way for traders".
And even if you change it to "single char", the cost for a second account is neglectible because of no monthly fees.

I want mode switching to stay... and not because of the "safe mode".
When i'm in the mood to play "solo", it would be "unsafe mode" for everyone else if i were in "open"