PvP Why PvP is broke and how to fix it

In other words, you find an excuse to play another game you decide and do not care about other players.

It's like playing poker and deciding that any card you have will make you win.

For this rare occasion let me link my open letter to you so you can have fun with us too after following my advice

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/475312-Open-letter-to-null-by-name-and-nature-an-advice

It must drive you mad that Null is:

1) Playing the game one-hundred percent within the rules.

2) Presumably having a blast while doing so.
 
Maybe some are just not grasping that organizations can exist within the game that are not directly described or even acknowledged by the game itself.
This does not negate their impact or relevance.
Third party groups and tools have been a major contributor to the depth of E.D since inception.

Actions taken in real game time will inevitably effect many players.
I view Z as just a new incarnation of an "Upright Man".

Done well it could be properly entertaining.
 

Guest 161958

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It must drive you mad that Null is:

1) Playing the game one-hundred percent within the rules.

2) Presumably having a blast while doing so.



Hyperbole is strong in young nullboys. It's just a game, my only concern is that since they have no long term strategy in the bgs they aren't even able to comprehend that on the long run driving people away from open results in a lot less chance to have meaningful pvp for ALL the pvp community not just them. But I guess they are content simply ganking easy targets.

1) Like spamming audiocalls and chat messages? Last I checked it is akin to griefing.

2) Good for him, bad for real pvpers.
 
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Guest 161958

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Maybe some are just not grasping that organizations can exist within the game that are not directly described or even acknowledged by the game itself.
This does not negate their impact or relevance.
Third party groups and tools have been a major contributor to the depth of E.D since inception.

Actions taken in real game time will inevitably effect many players.
I view Z as just a new incarnation of an "Upright Man".

Done well it could be properly entertaining.

Of course they exist, but their impact and relevance on the galaxy is null as they have no controlled systems, just some petty kills.


Talking of doing it well, they might ask fd to create cgs for them or create a player faction and build a strategy instead of this sad excuse for ganking.


And with this I bid you my farewell, I think I summarized well my thoughts and spent enough time to help you participate in the community. If you still do not get it, common gankers shooting at rocks you will become and open a boring mode with no purposeful pvp might become.
 
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No, there's no way I could hope you give a ffff.

I think we'll manage to make do without you just fine.

Zarek possesses hearts and minds and souls of his devoted henchmen. Not numbers related to grindy game mechanics that have been broken since 3.3 dropped (BGS) or broken forever (PP).

Also, at the moment he effectively controls whatever Open mode territory of DG2 he chooses. Listings in galmap are the illlusion of control. The ability to destroy your enemies, and keep them out of system or in solo/pg is actual control. As a henchman, I roam WP3 in open as I please. The same cannot be said of those who defy him.

Except of course those who have blocked, who can roam freely at will in Open also.
 
Except of course those who have blocked, who can roam freely at will in Open also.

Yes, or blocked ports on their routers, or what have you.

I consider it more precise to say they can roam freely in a subset of Open space. If one chooses to hide in the shadows, yes one can carry on.
 
Hyperbole is strong in young nullboys. It's just a game, my only concern is that since they have no long term strategy in the bgs they aren't even able to comprehend that on the long run driving people away from open results in a lot less chance to have meaningful pvp for ALL the pvp community not just them. But I guess they are content simply ganking easy targets.

1) Like spamming audiocalls and chat messages? Last I checked it is akin to griefing.

2) Good for him, bad for real pvpers.

You’re so new around here I can understand why you think this is all doom and gloom. Fact of the matter is Null and his cohorts are finally driving the community in general to get off their butts and finally really start doing something about it in the spirit of mature gameplay.

Check out Ziljan’s recent post about avoiding gankers. Conflict breeds creativity.

I’m sure there’s also plenty of other stuff going on in Discords and other private corners of the Elite internet community. Like I said earlier, open your mind!
 
Of course they exist, but their impact and relevance on the galaxy is null

How do you know?


Talking of doing it well, they might ask fd to create cgs for them or create a player faction

Many already have and do.


and build a strategy instead of this sad excuse for ganking.

This is a strategy. Its a publicity stunt like most terrorism, to achieve other ends... like pvp mechanics,




And with this I bid you my farewell, I think I summarized well my thoughts


no you didn't, and the ones I got the gist of based on the points spoke volumes about your seat time


and spent enough time to help you participate in the community.
If you still do not get it, common gankers shooting at rocks you will become and open a boring mode with no purposeful pvp might become.

cool story bro.


EDIT.

Look apologies for that, getting snotty never helps.
But you seem to infer that getting some sort of relevant change in regard to structured and supported PVP is easy.
Its not.
Some of us have been saying this since launch.

I am not a griefer. I have 160 days in game and 30000 kills.
Two have been other commanders outside agreed fights. And they both deserved it for mouthing off.
I have had many thousands of combat contests with other players. I just don't kill them when I win,
or visa-versa, contrary to the bloodthirsty insinuations regarding PVP'ers so often bandied about.

My want is not driven from some rabid need to extract salt..
I want properly constructed designed and supported COMPETATIVE COMBAT.

They gave us all ships and guns and CQC doesn't work.
Until it happens every shared event or location that draws numbers will obviously be used as fodder,
or better put; valued martyrs to a worthy cause.

Blame FD for the reluctance to fix the issue.
 
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At the current state, starting from scratch as a solo player is rather though.
After you decide the path you want to take in order to get settled game wise, you start going on that path and soon realize that every ship has to be pvp ready, defense wise, it's simply mandatory for playing in open.
Just building and engineering your pvp ship will take you on a route of pvp since engineer systems are known for people preying on un-engineered ships, where you have the obvious disadvantage.
You can go through all that and finally get that pvp ship of your dreams and start pvping, right? Wrong, you need a ton of credits for rebuys of that A-rated fully engineered monster, because practice makes perfect.
So you have to cripple yourself again, by stepping out of your most outfitted ship in order to make cash for rebuys, as a matter of fact anything you want to do that's not pvp related, you have to cripple yourself.
From the get go, even if you wish to be a pvp player, you are absolutely discouraged by the game to do anything.

There's no skill matchmaking, system security is just a bgs stat and otherwise useless, anything bellow A rated shields is hardy useful in open, there's no penalty or reward for being top-dog/underdog, engineering is horribly balanced, cqc is ...
Don't get me wrong, I love pvp in most games I play, in elite it's quite thrilling and satisfying, but I don't want it all the time and high-waking becomes tedious if you're trying to do something unrelated to pvp.
I've reached a point where I have a couple pvp ready ships and credits for rebuys, but by this time the game became stale, just reaching that point I've already seen what pvp has to offer and it's utterly sad, so entering the game, trying to decide what to do for five minutes and then closing the game became a thing.

Kudos to the guys trying to make the pvp league and organizing tournaments, imo needs a bit more editing, a bit less bias from commentators and much much more spectator camera options from fdev to make it perfect.
 
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Look apologies for that, getting snotty never helps.

Don't be too hard on yourself, half the posts in here are snotty and filled with condescension.

You're gonna get lumped in with us "young nullboys" here no matter what.

I do appreciate the nuance in your statement, but I'm just a younger nullboy (younger in game time, possibly not actual time).

The... mature folk... probably don't want to hear what you have to say.
 
From the get go, even if you wish to be a pvp player, you are absolutely discouraged by the game to do anything.

There is nothing wrong with grinding credits and mats in solo until you get a decent starter PvP ship. More power to those "100% open types" but I can't bring myself to care what mode people drive circles at Dav's hope in, it's garbage play no matter what.

I recommend a biweave hybrid vulture with dual efficient plasma, everything engineered to the gills. It has a relatively low rebuy, is a blast to fly, and is more forgiving of pip management mistakes than other builds. It can also kill larger, poorly flown "better" PvP ships better than any other small ship can.

Then just find some PvP'ers on a discord or here or wherever and start pew pew pew'ing.

You're absolutely right though about the barrier to entry. I hated it myself but it's just the state of the game. Basically a bunch of chores to complete before you can even start improving at all.
 
Thank you for the advice, I've spoken to several very helpful pvp players and have my ships meta built, my vulture is exactly what you suggested with meta experimentals, same goes with my chieftain, by far my favorite the viper, buy try finding a balanced fight for that. I also own a semi-engineered "boring" meta fdl. That's the problem, only way to actually enjoy the game is to hop modes, and only balanced pvp you can get is through arrangements, add the grind into the mix and it's not really persuasive to stick around.

Basically players force you to do your chores in pg/solo, the same way they do it, in order to avoid the same danger they provide others while hunting in open, because the game is designed that way.
 
No, what's hilarious is your obvious obsession with trying to discredit Null, someone who has the respect of MANY people in Elite.
Who are you and why should we even care what you have to say?

The respect of "dozens"? :D Uuhhhhh...

"You humans, most of you, subscribe to this policy of an eye for an eye, a life for a life, which is known throughout the universe for its... stupidity. Even your Buddha and your Christ had quite a different vision, but nobody's paid much attention to them, not even the Buddhists or the Christians. You humans. Sometimes its hard to imagine how you've made it this far."
 
The respect of "dozens"? :D Uuhhhhh...

"You humans, most of you, subscribe to this policy of an eye for an eye, a life for a life, which is known throughout the universe for its... stupidity. Even your Buddha and your Christ had quite a different vision, but nobody's paid much attention to them, not even the Buddhists or the Christians. You humans. Sometimes its hard to imagine how you've made it this far."

You can thank sanitation, for starters.
 
Hyperbole is strong in young nullboys. It's just a game, my only concern is that since they have no long term strategy in the bgs they aren't even able to comprehend that on the long run driving people away from open results in a lot less chance to have meaningful pvp for ALL the pvp community not just them. But I guess they are content simply ganking easy targets.

I've been playing PvP games for 20 years.
I've never seen the argument "You are killing the game" change anyone's mind.
Ever.

2) Good for him, bad for real pvpers.
I don't particularly like the way Null plays the game; however, I hate the inherent snobbery of the phrase 'real pvpers' even more.
If you want matched PvP then go play any number of PvP games out there that offer that style of play - or play in solo/group play.

If you don't like getting ganked there are at least two options in this game, and literally hundreds of options elsewhere.
It isn't Null's problem that you've decided to play in open space.
 
Having played the game for 2 years and staying quiet, I thought it was time to share my musings on PvP in Elite Dangerous.

First of all, I would like to state that I am just expressing an opinion and have no wish to get into a debate with anyone who has a differing view.
Secondly I would like to state that I like the idea of PvP as it adds realism, danger and depth to the game. Initially I enjoyed the idea of running a trade ship in community goals in open play, quite happy to be interdicted by PC Pirates, deciding whether to fight, run, or to pay them off with a few tonnes of cargo. I like the idea of pirating a community goal, picking my targets and evading the wing of bounty hunters that are on my tail. I like the idea of joining a power play faction and interdicting enemy factions who have been downright cheeky enough to undermine my home system. I like the idea of PC bounty hunters having the challenge of bringing a notorious player to justice. I like the idea of squadrons being at war with each other.

But none of that has ever happened in my 2 years of playing the game. I rarely encounter other players and NEVER seem to encounter like minded ones. Maybe its because they have been driven into private groups or solo play by the random PC killers. In every instance where I have been attacked by another player, they have had literally no in-game reason to do so. I am not in an enemy faction, they make no attempt to take cargo, I have no bounty on my head. The only apparent reason that they do so is that they want to disrupt my gaming experience. I am not going to get into the motivations of players who randomly attack other players, but I think there is a wide base of players who consider this to be an issue in the game that has not yet been addressed. Players hanging around in solo or private groups diminish the game, as does combat logging, but I do understand why they do so. Being ganked for no reason is not fun.

So what are my solutions? I think two changes need to be made: Firstly put mechanics in place to prevent a player from attacking a player without a genuine in-game reason and secondly encourage more players into open play and punish combat logging.

First point first: My suggested solution is to disallow a player from firing on another player that does not have a ‘Hostile’ tag on them. Without a hostile tag, the player’s weapons simply have no effect. I know what you are thinking “but hey that eliminates friendly fire!” but perhaps friendly fire can still occur as long as a player is aiming for a legitimate target. So for example, if I randomly attack another player I cause no damage, but if I am targeting an NPC pirate (ie I have him as my selected target and not aiming at an untargeted ship) and my shots go astray, I can damage my wing mate by accident.

There are several conditions that will set a player hostile which I will elaborate on:

  • Being in an enemy power play faction automatically sets both players to hostile and they can attack freely.
  • Being in an enemy squadron automatically sets both players to hostile and they can attack freely. Squadrons would only be set as hostile if BOTH squadron leaders set the other squadron to hostile.
  • You are allied to any local faction to which the other player is hostile (or vice versa).
  • You or wing mates detect a bounty on another player.
  • The other player scans you, or somebody in your wing, with a kill warrant scanner or manifest scanner.
  • The other player interdicts you or somebody in your wing.
  • The other player fires at you or somebody in your wing.
  • You are in ‘Piracy’ mode. If in Piracy mode the game will announce your presence to other players by saying “Pirate Commander X demands that you pay tribute!”. The other player has the option of dropping (perhaps) 25% of his cargo, which ends your piracy mode. You then cannot re-enter piracy mode for (lets say) 5 minutes. The above is reported as a crime, the severity of which is proportionate to the value of the cargo dropped.
  • The other player is in piracy mode.
  • The other player collides with you above a certain velocity.

Please note that some of these actions only set one player as hostile but not the other. For example if another player interdicts me he is set as hostile to me which allows me to attack. However I am still not yet to hostile for him, so he can not attack me unless I chose to fire upon him.
Also please note that I may not have come up with an exhaustive list of reasons to PVP so please add more.

Now onto my second point: Encouraging more players into open play and preventing combat logging. This one is pretty simple and has been discussed previously.

  • Power play no longer available in private groups or solo.
  • Community goals no longer available in private groups or solo.
  • Faction influence from missions more pronounced in open play.
  • Combat logging is punishable by limiting the player to solo play for X amount of hours where X is related to the number of times they have combat logged in the last Y amount of days.

That ends my musings. I would like to end by saying that I know latterly nothing about programming and do not know how easy/difficult any of the above would be to incorporate. I think these ideas would create a lot more potential for fun and dynamic PvP in elite dangerous.


"I rarely encounter other players and NEVER seem to encounter like minded ones. "


That one line makes it very hard for me to take the rest of your post seriously. If you go to ANY community goal..and theres always..ALWAYS one on..there are players. Lots of players. The stations around these CGS are hectic to the point its scary.
Not only that but you know..they are there for the Goal ( most of them) so yes..they are like minded..by default.

So..either you are lying to enforce a point (why i dont know) OR you never do CGs..in which case..why not, if youre looking for players? Isnt that the obvious place to go?

Giant wall of text was not needed.

Just a tiny bit of logic.


(Or honesty.)
 
The respect of "dozens"? :D Uuhhhhh...

"You humans, most of you, subscribe to this policy of an eye for an eye, a life for a life, which is known throughout the universe for its... stupidity. Even your Buddha and your Christ had quite a different vision, but nobody's paid much attention to them, not even the Buddhists or the Christians. You humans. Sometimes its hard to imagine how you've made it this far."

Lol, you must be new. More like hundreds but whatever you want to believe.
 
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