Will the 2020 ED build move away from peer to peer?

Nutter

Nutter
Clearly FD are working on a 'new version' of Elite Dangerous and something new will be delivered around Xmas 2020... Some say space legs..

With that in mind, surly the netcode and matchmaking is going to need a serious overhaul.

If we go FPS or just FP, busy player hubs will look awful, we would have ghosts, rubberbanding and disconnects...
P1 - Hi i'm at the Bar!
P2 - I can't see you
P1 - Try logging on and off
P2 - Says matchmaking error
P1 - Your beer is getting warm, come on!
P2 - Ok back in but still can't see you or my Beer?
P1 - Ok let me re-log
P2 - Goes solo and chats to a NPC at the Bar

What options are out there?
Do you think FD will invest in big meaty new servers and dump peer to peer altogether?

Does ED bring in enough cash to cover the running costs of central servers?

Thoughts?

Nutter

o7
 

Barking_Mad

Barking_Mad
On paper it's probably a good idea, but it would be a massive undertaking at this point. I'd guess not, but would be happy if proven wrong :)
 

StuartGT

StuartGT
I hope that a networking overhaul is part of the New Era update, and the 2yr+ production time will certainly provide the opportunity.

My thoughts on what I'd like said networking overhaul to include:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/posts/7480190

StuartGT said:
Like with Google and Microsoft, it's very likely Amazon are already working on a similar platform. While they may not have an as-widespread datacentre (DC) distribution as Google (6500+ DCs worldwide of various sizes according to today's presentation) Amazon's overall capacity and distribution could be similar (fewer, larger DCs). They have AmazonStore, Prime, Twitch, Audible, etc already using those DCs.

FDev could have the option of porting Elite Dangerous to the AWS Cloud Product (AWStadia?) and at the same time update current clients (PC, Xbox, Playstation) with hybrid tech from that porting:
  • Move the client-side peer-to-peer networking to Cloud Instances/Nodes (gonna call them nodes from now on, to avoid confusion with in-game instances, i.e. ~32 in bubble, 100+ during mass-jumps)
  • Windows/Xbox/Playstation clients install/play the game as normal
  • Clients connect and communicate with their nearest node - small latency between client & node
  • Nodes use Peer2peer to connect to other AWStadia nodes - minimal latency between nodes (either on same node, or ones nearby)
  • All nodes connect to the main Elite Dangerous AWS servers (BGS, authentication, adjudication, missions, etc) - minimal latency between node & server
  • Clients still do the vast bulk of performance-requiring tasks - rendering, input-recognition, gameplay calculations, etc
  • Bar the connectivity of client to Cloud Instance/Node, there shouldn't be any Peer2Peer issues like we have now (incompatible ISPs & MTUs, UPNP, port tunneling, etc) as they'd all be "server-side"
  • Server-nodes/instances distributed worldwide means much lower networking latency than if all players connected to one/few separate worldwide servers (e.g. EU, USA, Oceania), so it'd be close to the low-latency-benefits of current Peer2Peer
  • Lower bandwidth requirements of clients, as they'd only be sending/receiving data between themselves and the nearest node, instead of to/from all players in the same game instance
  • Performance and Bandwidth requirements of Elite Dangerous nodes would be dramatically lower than Stadia-equivalent nodes - only running the Elite Dangerous networking stack
  • Therefore, each node could probably support thousands of connected-clients
  • VR continues to be supported on clients
  • Possibility of game improvements that require server-side networking: larger more-reliable instances (100s of players?) and matchmaking, persistent NPCs, immediate server-wide events & effects, combat logging punishment, etc and all the emergent gameplay that would come from those changes
Hierarchy:
LzGTKBa.png


TL;DR: Amazon have all these datacentres worldwide, a networking rewrite and upgrade would be very beneficial, and Elite's next major expansion (it's biggest one yet) is in development for 2nd half of 2020, so the time is right to do it :)
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Pure client/server won't be feasible because of distance between server and clients - the speed of light cannot be overcome. Other games get round the distance issue via separate, localised servers (players would no longer be in the same gameworld), and/or low-refresh-rate servers 1Hz-5Hz (no good for Elite's twitch-response gameplay).
 

Northpin

Northpin
And you might be overestimating the desire of Elite players to pay monthly subs - not my case tho since i'm on xbox and i do pay for gold live subscription even tho it's not really required with my choice of mods.
 

RexKraemer

RexKraemer
No, I don't believe that they will change the net code, not, because I think it would be too difficult, a "massive undertaking" it is not, if they have done it right. Net code is typically very easy to be modularized, and actually should be, so the coding details should be completely hidden to the rest of the client.

The reason is, that there are not so much game contents, which need new network model. Even sapce legs, as imagined by FDev, will not be that massive multi player experience as e.g. it shows in Star Citizen or in other MMPG where hundreds of players are in one environment. Space legs will not be that I believe.

Actually my theory is, that FDev already has quite some content for E: D in the backhand, more or less ready to ship. They hold it back for the time Star Citizen is released. When this time comes we will see several new content to buy in frequent releases (Space Legs, the E: D variant, not the boring FPS version of Star Citizen, atmospheric landing with procedural landscapes and weather effects, ice worlds, multiplayer/squadron ships,...).

Than E: D will be the only real space sim on the market and Star Citizen will only be another FPS, just in space.
 

Stealthie

Stealthie
People need to remember that "Project 2020" is going to be an EXPANSION for the game and not a re-write.

Point being, whatever they produce for 2020 has to be something that people can say "no thanks" to, and still carry on playing the game they already have.

Sure, it's possible FDev could completely re-write the netcode for the game but, if they did that, they'd have to make the effort to get it all working with the current game and then offer it as a free update - and then they'd have to come up with something else as paid-content in 2020.
 

[VR] M4st0d0n

[VR] M4st0d0n
Mmmm. As of now Elite is not a twitch based pvp flight sim. The main component of multiplayer is coop pve.

Moving to a node based Amazon subnetwork for everyone will just split the playerbase in regions and increase latency for people wanting to duel if they're on different nodes. That'll just make legit pvp even more rare and a pita to make happen.

They need to redefine how pvp happens in this game, or redesigning architecture would be spent for nothing.
 

StuartGT

StuartGT
RexKraemer said:
No, I don't believe that they will change the net code, not, because I think it would be too difficult, a "massive undertaking" it is not, if they have done it right. Net code is typically very easy to be modularized, and actually should be, so the coding details should be completely hidden to the rest of the client.

The reason is, that there are not so much game contents, which need new network model. Even sapce legs, as imagined by FDev, will not be that massive multi player experience as e.g. it shows in Star Citizen or in other MMPG where hundreds of players are in one environment. Space legs will not be that I believe.

Actually my theory is, that FDev already has quite some content for E: D in the backhand, more or less ready to ship. They hold it back for the time Star Citizen is released. When this time comes we will see several new content to buy in frequent releases (Space Legs, the E: D variant, not the boring FPS version of Star Citizen, atmospheric landing with procedural landscapes and weather effects, ice worlds, multiplayer/squadron ships,...).

Than E: D will be the only real space sim on the market and Star Citizen will only be another FPS, just in space.
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Star Citizen supports maximum 50 players per server, not hundreds in one environment. The latter requires Cloud Imperium to implement server meshing which isn't yet on the roadmap. The full game of Star Citizen is many years away from release; FDev aren't waiting for that moment to release "held back content", New Era has been in full production since last August, and will have a total production time of 2yr+ when it arrives in the second half of next year.
 

StuartGT

StuartGT
M4st0d0n said:
Mmmm. As of now Elite is not a twitch based pvp flight sim. The main component of multiplayer is coop pve.

Moving to a node based Amazon subnetwork for everyone will just split the playerbase in regions and increase latency for people wanting to duel if they're on different nodes. That'll just make legit pvp even more rare and a pita to make happen.

They need to redefine how pvp happens in this game, or redesigning architecture would be spent for nothing.
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Moving to a node based Amazon subnetwork for everyone will NOT split the playerbase in regions. Amazon have hundreds of nodes worldwide; not once per region/continent. Yes, there will be a latency increase for players across nodes but it won't be noticeable to the player. Read my suggestion comment again.
 

StuartGT

StuartGT
Stealthie said:
StuartGT said:
New Era has been in full production since last August...
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Hey, you interested in buying a bridge?
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Ian Skippy said:
StuartGT said:
New Era has been in full production since last August...
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Fixed that for you, kinda relevant nuanc here. That is what FD literally said, so those three letters matter I'd assume. ;)
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Here you both go, from August 2018:
Zac Antonaci said:
We do have one exciting piece of news to share that to date, we have not shared with our community. A while ago, our development went from pre-production into full production on our next major milestone of Elite development.

What that means in the simplest terms is that the team are actively working on the next major landmark which takes us into our next era for Elite. We aren’t going to be ready to talk about or announce any details for quite a while yet, it is early in the development and there is still a long way to go, but I can say that this is something that will be scheduled to release a considerable time after the final update in the Beyond series. We will have more details on exactly what this means and how the era will roll out after the release of Beyond – Chapter Four, but this does mark some exciting next steps and a continued commitment to the long term vision for the game and our community.

Naturally, there will be community questions that might come up from this information. We aren’t going to be ready to talk about what method or model the content will be. What we can say is that it’s expected to be a major milestone in the history of Elite and will be paid content. Lifetime Expansion owners will obviously receive the content as part of their pass.
Click to expand...
New Era has been in full production since last August, as that is what FDev literally said.
 
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