Would you prefer C&P back how it was?

[Aashenfox]

You can say it's logical, you can say the info is out there, you can say it was a good faith attempt to solve a problem, you can say what you like. The fact is the new C&P is ridiculously over complicated, fussy and has definitely caused more inconvenience to players playing legally but making the occasional mistake, than it has to the griefers.

Therefore I propose a rollback and looking at it again in a future update. Putting the bounty on the ships is so counter intuitive for one thing.

Solutions have to be simple, guys, new players are really going to struggle with the convolution, it took me some time to really understand what I need to do when something happens now (I do now, but it wasn't exactly clear, and I had to go forum trawling to find the info) and nobody is sure if their bounties, or the game's behaviour are bugs, because sometimes it seems so illogical or far removed from what it 'was', that we question if it can be intended, and of course sometimes it is bugs because we are in a fresh release.

Then there's the problems that several missions make you wanted by necessity. Who would do these now?

I know this is piddling into the wind, but I want to express that whatever 'this' is, it wasn't the right step to deal with griefing or make C&P more effective, fair or fun.

ALL THAT NEEDED DOING was some estra stuff as regards player vs player interactions. Not a change to the whole fundamental system.

 

[askavir]

No.

While I do agree that it should be simpler, the way it was it meant that, in practice, nothing of consequence would ever happen while being a criminal, which made being a criminal unintersting and shallow.

And al criminaly/C&P system should always work exactly the same for either players or NPCs.

 

[Stealthie]

That's really my biggest concern about the new C&P; it seems like FDev have spent so much time trying to fix the various existing "loopholes" that they've ended-up with a bunch of arbitrary "rules" rather than any kind of actual system.

If it needs more than a paragraph to explain it, it probably needs throwing away and re-doing.

 

[jimmychoosshoes]

no, but the new system need a tweak. at least a threshold for IF only bounty clearance. that way VERY small bounties can be paid locally.

 

[Jaiotu]

Then there's the problems that several missions make you wanted by necessity. Who would do these now?.

Only a criminal would resort to participating in a job that, by definition, is a crime. Under the old rules you could take the mission without worrying about consequences. What is wrong with there being consequences for your actions?

Frontier has missed an opportunity of using their new Galnet news audio system to present an audible narration IN-GAME explaining the new C&P system to players. This should have been the very first news article in the queue when folks logged into 3.0 after the upgrade.

I for one am happy to see C&P get some teeth again. While it isn't as good as the original system (where becoming wanted in ONE Federation system made you a fugitive in EVERY Federation system) I'll take it. Anything to help add a little depth to playing the part of 'bad guy' is welcome ... even if it upsets some people's tried and true methods for tanking opposing factions within the BGS IMHO.

 

[Ouberos]

I haven't been a fan of the system since it was proposed. To me it seems like the opposite of what a game should provide which is playability. Setting up an evenings gaming is hard enough in Elite, sometimes you have to use an evening preparing for the thing you want to do. Adding this extra layer of complexity makes the game experience less immediate. From my perspective this will reduce the attractiveness of Elite compared to other gaming offers. Also, the argument that it's about consequence of your actions is moot because if that were so then there would also be a working tax system in place. To my eyes this entire change is to challenge the behaviour of 5% or less of the community. Which is ironic given they will be the ones least effected.

Having said all of that this is a big update and there is some good stuff in there. These changes are unlikely to be repealed. It's a shame, I liked being a space Pirate but I suspect that time is now over.

Everyone can come out into Open now. It's perfectly safe.

Honest.

 

[Larash]

I prefer the old c+p-system. It was far from perfect, but it wasn't such a hassle.
The new system punishes slight mistakes or AI-errors (npc ramming you, police flying into your beam, etc.) far too harsh and thereby severely disrupts gameplay. It simply makes playing less enjoyable.

I really wonder why AI-ships don't contact you, if you shoot them.
For example:
After shooting a security vessel one time (of if you just graze them) they message you - Hold fire immediately! (but nothing further happens)
If you hit them harder and would have gotten a bounty it could be like: 'Callsign, stop shooting! You got 10 Seconds to retract your hardpoints and reduce your speed to zero. You will be boarded.' etc...

This will at least give some kind of realistic feel to it.

 

[MickyG1982]

The only thing they need to add is "On The Spot" Fines & the new system will be much better...

 

[Stealthie]

To my eyes this entire change is to challenge the behaviour of 5% or less of the community. Which is ironic given they will be the ones least effected.

Having said all of that this is a big update and there is some good stuff in there.

Was just about to post almost exactly the same thing.

It's like there's 2 different sets of players involved.

Firstly, there's the pro-criminals.
For them, the whole C&P thing is a constant battle of wits with FDev.
FDev come up with rules and the criminals figure out ways to circumvent them, or turn them to their advantage.
It ends up like a big ol' game of chess, where both sides are trying to think 5 moves ahead and sucker the opposition into doing things which will trip them up.

Secondly, there's the other 95% of players, who's only experience of C&P is likely to brief, accidental and minor.
And, as a result of what's going on with the other group, they're all left absolutely bloody baffled.


Also worth saying that I agree with your other point too.
There's a lot of stuff wrong with 3.0 but that's because it's a gigantic update and almost all of it is interesting, even if some of it is irritating. [up]

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Nah, it needs some work, bugs ironing out, perhaps closing of some loopholes, but i think the general system might as well stay, over complicated as it is.

I mean, we got a rework of engineers and rework of the crime and punishment system. That's two major reworks in one big patch. One wonders what else could have been done with that deveopment time instead?

And, at the end of the day, both were largely there to either appease or deal with PvPers in some way.

Its time for FD to fix the bugs and move on to developing content for the majority, not just a tiny subset of the community.

Having said that, the new Engineering system is probably better overall, although if they had just added the traders to the old system i would have been as happy as a pig in mud.

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

yes

 

[Bomba Luigi]

The new system can need some tweaks and fixes, its not perfect (what ever is?) but I take it over the old one any day because its at least something. The old system whenever I did something criminal it was basicly no diffrent from doing something legal.

 

[Iskariot]

Would you prefer C&P back how it was?

No.
But I do expect FDev to refine and improve it over time.

For example: I think it should not be necessary to be in a ship that has fines or bounties to pay these off.
I also would like a good detailed overview of all the fines and bounties the player incurred, with information about where he got them, and why he got them. This Crime screen should also explain how C&P works in Elite.
This screen should be accessible from anywhere.

Solutions have to be simple, guys, new players are really going to struggle with the convolution, it took me some time to really
understand what I need to do when something happens now (I do now, but it wasn't exactly clear, and I had to go forum trawling to find the info) and nobody is sure if their bounties, or the game's behaviour are bugs, because sometimes it seems so illogical or far removed from what it 'was', that we question if it can be intended, and of course sometimes it is bugs because we are in a fresh release.

The game is anorexic with information about everything. That is one of the major problems. It is slowly getting better though.
As far as what to do with bounties and fines...
In the Bounty and fine Information screen I proposed above, FDev could also put information about how C&P works, and about how the player should handle fines and bounties.

Then there's the problems that several missions make you wanted by necessity. Who would do these now?

I am indeed avoiding that stuff now, because it is more difficult to determine what the consequences are, and whether the risk of doing such a mission is financially worth it. Criminal missions should pay more than they do currently. Criminals need to be seduced by money to take the risk.

 

[MickyG1982]

The funny thing about the old system - it wasn't exactly simple either, there were literally thousands of complaints made about it & it's complexity. This one is just different & actually seems simpler & more logical to me, but it's only been up & running a day or two, players will get used to it.

 

[Winterwalker]

No. I think there are things that could be added, like paying a bounty on a hot ship while you're in a different ship (at a factor but with +100% commission as opposed to +15%) and putting ship repair and re-arm at blackmarkets, in jurisdictions where your ship is wanted (+15% etc).

I don't think it's difficult to understand that in jurisdictions where you're wanted, your actions are restricted.

Not to say there aren't ways to add loopholes above, that allow you to behave like a criminal in the jurisdiction, rather than having to leave the area but I don't think the rules need to roll back until such time. The criminal justice system just clamped down, lore wise. Now it's up to the blackmarket to counter.

 

[GunnerBill]

MMhh. I think if they can get a grip on the proportionality problem this system has then let's see how it goes.

But if they ain't going to do that than it's a [down] from me.

---------------------

Mainly though the issue to me is that I think in a Haz Res the friendly fire thresholds should be much higher, preferably only applying if there is actual hull damage.

Hazardous Extraction Area - Operate at your own risk.

 

[Nagual]

No. This has been a long time coming. Other than the bugs the system is good. It's designed to both discourage and punish crime. My personal thoughts are it doesn't go far enough.

 

[Arkadi]

No. This has been a long time coming. Other than the bugs the system is good. It's designed to both discourage and punish crime. My personal thoughts are it doesn't go far enough.

I also thinkt the system is good (bugs like Powerplay Notority or low level bounties bettter being fines hopefully being ironed out soon). But I wouldn't say it's designed to "discourage" crime but to put consequences to crime. That's a littel difference. In fact crime was buffed with new opportunities and better payment for pve piracy. I believe only by implementing consequences for crime now frontier can also implement rewards (or even better content) for criminal game-play.

Of course random player killing should be discouraged, if this is what you are refering to as "crime" whilst still making consensual pvp and powerplay valid pvp combat options.

Also I hope that the new C&P system only is a milestone to the goal of a consensual criminal vs bountyhunter pvp gameplay.

 

[Eymerich]

You can say it's logical, you can say the info is out there, you can say it was a good faith attempt to solve a problem, you can say what you like. The fact is the new C&P is ridiculously over complicated, fussy and has definitely caused more inconvenience to players playing legally but making the occasional mistake, than it has to the griefers.

Therefore I propose a rollback and looking at it again in a future update. Putting the bounty on the ships is so counter intuitive for one thing.

Solutions have to be simple, guys, new players are really going to struggle with the convolution, it took me some time to really understand what I need to do when something happens now (I do now, but it wasn't exactly clear, and I had to go forum trawling to find the info) and nobody is sure if their bounties, or the game's behaviour are bugs, because sometimes it seems so illogical or far removed from what it 'was', that we question if it can be intended, and of course sometimes it is bugs because we are in a fresh release.

Then there's the problems that several missions make you wanted by necessity. Who would do these now?

I know this is piddling into the wind, but I want to express that whatever 'this' is, it wasn't the right step to deal with griefing or make C&P more effective, fair or fun.

ALL THAT NEEDED DOING was some estra stuff as regards player vs player interactions. Not a change to the whole fundamental system.

No.

More simple, maybe.

But now it's better than before.

 

[Marra Morgan]

No, I think the new system is a big improvement and I'm looking forward to seeing further development on it.