Would you prefer C&P back how it was?

[RyeENcoke]

Pretty sure you can just sit in solo though? Also you’d have had to kill a ship, so you won’t get any sympathy from me for having to wait
Well, you can just play in solo though so whatever.

The wiki states that notoriety will only decrease in Open play and not in Solo or Private. I did kill a ship. I was bounty hunting in a High RES. I am not really sure what happened. I THOUGHT I was targeting a wanted ship. I mean that is how I have been making money, I target a ship wait to see if it is wanted then attack it, although I am still in a small ship so I wait until the police or local faction ships start attacking it as well so I don't take all the fire. But like I said, I was pretty sure I had done it all properly. So I was really surprised when it said I had a bounty. I assume I made a mistake somewhere, just not sure what it was. But again having to go to Open and then sit and wait for notoriety to decrease (there is no timer to show me how long I have to wait) is just annoying and seems unfair.

 

[galahad2069]

I've just seen one where a CMDR got a wreckless flying fine and the station authorized lethal response!!

So that's how wreckless flying turns into a wreckful one, lol.

 

[the source 0179]

Old system had Bounties, Fines, Timers, invisible Dormant Bounties, Legacy Fines; and all that complication resulted in no real consequences for a player. They could pretty much be ignored most of the time and where they did result in a slight inconvenience, I could just commit suicide to remove even that.

The new system seems much simpler and more logical to me. Crimes have obvious consequences and cause reasonable restrictions. Maybe a few small tweeks needed in a couple of places and perhaps an inbox message from the authorities when you do commit a crime, but overall a great improvement.

Well since the bounties are locked to the ship now. Theres no real consequences. Unless its your main engineered ship. You switch ship. It never happened. You sell the ship. It never happened etc etc. So in fact you can ignore them now more if you pick what ship you want the bounty on. And get rid of it. And it never happened.

I think its a stupid idea for the bounties/fines to be locked to the ship.
The game should either be everything is locked to the cmdr or everything locked to the ship not bits of one bits of another. For example if things are locked to the ship then cargo should stay with the ship unless you transfer it. Etc etc.

 

[DukeIronHand]

"C&P effects me. It was supposed to be laser focused on griefers. plz nerf."

How is it, again, that the poor downtrodden PvP’ers are portraying themselves as some kind of victim? Again.
Like you boys have had it tough or something?
PvP away! Have fun! Believe it or not some folks look at the game from a different perspective.

 

[nrage]

- remove "Crimes done by the Ships but never by the CMDR", simply because it's ridiculous, makes no sense whatsoever and creates plenty of loopholes all by itself. CMDRs do crimes, not replacable Ships.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Today, on earth, speed camera's send the owner of the vehicle a notice specifically because they cannot identify who is actually driving. This is basically the same thing, for presumably the same reason (lore wise).
Crimes are attached to ships, because the crime was committed in the ship, and the assumption is that the same person was flying both times. The "ship" didn't commit the crime, the CMDR in the ship did, so next time you see that ship assume the same CMDR and bring them to justice.

 

[ShimEnki]

Swooping up a bit into eagle view, it seems that this new C&P system is really the installation of corrupt authority agencies.

We deal with that by getting together and turning/flipping this galaxy into pure anarchy one system at a time.

As Nickelback sang...lets burn it (corrupt authorities) to the ground

 

[AzraelDirge]

How is it, again, that the poor downtrodden PvP’ers are portraying themselves as some kind of victim? Again.
Like you boys have had it tough or something?
PvP away! Have fun! Believe it or not some folks look at the game from a different perspective.

Nah, I don't mind it much. I accepted my spot on the wrong side of the law when I decided I enjoy PvP, and usually plan around having access to a nearby anarchy. I'm enjoying the tears over the the uniform enforcement of the law though. People seemed to think the new C&P was just gonna be to slap anyone who killed an unwanted player, and the reality doesn't sit well with them.

 

[nrage]

World of Warcraft is killing their PvP servers with the next expansion, and making all servers PvE with a PvP opt-in toggle. They tried for almost a decade to get World PvP to work, but they have finally given up because it just doesn't. Frontier should take a page out of that book, and change Open to have a similar rule set.

It would give this game such a huge boost (even leaving Solo and PG as options, and they should), and it would eliminate all of the problems and complications that come from a PvP-enabled (but not PvP-centric) environment.

Once that is done, Frontier can look into developing criminal play, and consequence that doesn't have to take PvP into account at all. This would work so much better, it would be simpler, and it would likely be better received.

+1. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Personally, I have always had zero interest in PvP (that is, zero interest in spending my limited game time on this one very niche pursuit at the expense of all others). PvP done right simply takes too much time investment. What I'd love to be able to do is to run into random commanders (all of them, not just players in Mobius) for a chat or to team up for co-op style gameplay, I've made a few temporary CMDR allies in RES sites and the like. I have zero desire to be "the victim" (even though I never fly a ship that cannot immediately escape interdiction as/when required), that role brings me no enjoyment, nor does it's mere possibility enhance the game experience for me.. so selfishly (I admit) I simply want to be excluded from PvP events/encounters/etc altogether.

At the same time, I do have some sympathy from those players who want PvP and want to be competing directly over things like Community goals, so I have no issue with additional benefits being awarded to players doing these things in Open, or for there to exist some (not all/only) Open-only Community Goals. Perhaps an improvement to Powerplay can provide, as Frontier intended, some more PvP centered gameplay. I, personally, would not find it unreasonable to limit Powerplay to Open only, but this is bound to annoy some other players. Additionally, some more organised PvP competitions (with enforced gameplay around these) and a player leader board would, I suspect, greatly improve things - as I think what many PvP'ers want is some in-game fame/notoriety.

 

[Genus]

World of Warcraft is killing their PvP servers with the next expansion, and making all servers PvE with a PvP opt-in toggle. They tried for almost a decade to get World PvP to work, but they have finally given up because it just doesn't. Frontier should take a page out of that book, and change Open to have a similar rule set.

It would give this game such a huge boost (even leaving Solo and PG as options, and they should), and it would eliminate all of the problems and complications that come from a PvP-enabled (but not PvP-centric) environment.

Once that is done, Frontier can look into developing criminal play, and consequence that doesn't have to take PvP into account at all. This would work so much better, it would be simpler, and it would likely be better received.

Riôt

Seconded (edit: thirded). MMOW's will go the way of 3D cinematography. Interesting while the gimmick lasted, but ultimately not what works.

 

[nrage]

I've just seen one where a CMDR got a wreckless flying fine and the station authorized lethal response!! Usual FDev sloppiness.

I got a fine for reckless flying last night, no lethal response. If your reckless flying results in ship destruction then it's a bounty (but not notoriety as this is "ramming" and that is excluded) and you would correctly suffer from lethal response.

If you want to complain about stations and lethal response there are way better targets, take "loitering" for example

 

[nrage]

Well since the bounties are locked to the ship now. Theres no real consequences. Unless its your main engineered ship. You switch ship. It never happened. You sell the ship. It never happened etc etc.

Not true.

Being forced to switch ship = consequence, esp if it's your main/best engineered ship.
Switch back, wanted = consequence, now you cannot do certain things and you will be attacked in this ship.
If you try and sell a hot ship you get reduced CR for it = consequence.

There is (I believe) no way to avoid both paying for or suffering from being wanted as a result of a bounty.

The suicidewinder trick used to clear all bounties from the CMDR, making those unclaimed by the bounty claimant into legacy fines .. which no-one ever paid off.

I think its a stupid idea for the bounties/fines to be locked to the ship.

Why? (gameplay or lore reason?)

If the former, it solves the suicidewinder issue quite nicely, and introduces those consequences listed above. So, it seems quite a good mechanic for the game.

If the latter, it's how speed camera fines operate today (IRL). They are attached to the car/the owner of the car. In Elite you are the owner of the ship, and as it's the ship that can be identified as having committed the crime, so its the ship that gets identified as being wanted, and it's the ship that gets destroyed. But, ultimately, it's the CMDR who owns the ship that pays the bounties. So, seems pretty close to a real life example to me, so it makes sense from a lore perspective.

 

[RyeENcoke]

World of Warcraft is killing their PvP servers with the next expansion, and making all servers PvE with a PvP opt-in toggle. They tried for almost a decade to get World PvP to work, but they have finally given up because it just doesn't. Frontier should take a page out of that book, and change Open to have a similar rule set.

It would give this game such a huge boost (even leaving Solo and PG as options, and they should), and it would eliminate all of the problems and complications that come from a PvP-enabled (but not PvP-centric) environment.

Once that is done, Frontier can look into developing criminal play, and consequence that doesn't have to take PvP into account at all. This would work so much better, it would be simpler, and it would likely be better received.

Riôt

I agree 100% with this. I play in Solo to avoid PVP, and will Private only in PVE, never PVP. You need a different set of rules for C&P PVE and PVP.

 

[AzraelDirge]

+1. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Personally, I have always had zero interest in PvP (that is, zero interest in spending my limited game time on this one very niche pursuit at the expense of all others). PvP done right simply takes too much time investment. What I'd love to be able to do is to run into random commanders (all of them, not just players in Mobius) for a chat or to team up for co-op style gameplay, I've made a few temporary CMDR allies in RES sites and the like. I have zero desire to be "the victim" (even though I never fly a ship that cannot immediately escape interdiction as/when required), that role brings me no enjoyment, nor does it's mere possibility enhance the game experience for me.. so selfishly (I admit) I simply want to be excluded from PvP events/encounters/etc altogether.

At the same time, I do have some sympathy from those players who want PvP and want to be competing directly over things like Community goals, so I have no issue with additional benefits being awarded to players doing these things in Open, or for there to exist some (not all/only) Open-only Community Goals. Perhaps an improvement to Powerplay can provide, as Frontier intended, some more PvP centered gameplay. I, personally, would not find it unreasonable to limit Powerplay to Open only, but this is bound to annoy some other players. Additionally, some more organised PvP competitions (with enforced gameplay around these) and a player leader board would, I suspect, greatly improve things - as I think what many PvP'ers want is some in-game fame/notoriety.

This won't work because of player factions and BGS. It will lead to people going into the base of an opposing player faction, running endless missions that trash their BGS, and taunting in local. People taking shieldless cutters to the CG, safe in the knowledge they don't even have to take the most perfunctory safety measures. A faction getting a CG, and running the whole thing with the PvP tag disabled, avoiding anyone who wishes to counter. People running UAs in open, with their magic, unkillable, unshielded ship. People running powerplay materials to invade an enemy system, laughing at all attempts to intercept their shipments. I maintain that solo and PG should be cut off from effecting BGS in any way, then people can enjoy their training wheels galaxy in Mobius without being able to conduct attacks from safety.

 

[Mohrgan]

This won't work because of player factions and BGS. It will lead to people going into the base of an opposing player faction, running endless missions that trash their BGS, and taunting in local. People taking shieldless cutters to the CG, safe in the knowledge they don't even have to take the most perfunctory safety measures. A faction getting a CG, and running the whole thing with the PvP tag disabled, avoiding anyone who wishes to counter. People running UAs in open, with their magic, unkillable, unshielded ship. People running powerplay materials to invade an enemy system, laughing at all attempts to intercept their shipments. I maintain that solo and PG should be cut off from effecting BGS in any way, then people can enjoy their training wheels galaxy in Mobius without being able to conduct attacks from safety.

You forget that all of that stuffs have, in the BGS, counter activities mooting any need for direct PvP. Shield-less Cutters can be countered by shield-less cutters. UA bombing by MA bombing. In fact direct PvP is the least effective counter to any of those complaints. Even in open. Forget the myth. Learn to BGS.

 

[AzraelDirge]

You forget that all of that stuffs have, in the BGS, counter activities mooting any need for direct PvP. Shield-less Cutters can be countered by shield-less cutters. UA bombing by MA bombing. In fact direct PvP is the least effective counter to any of those complaints. Even in open. Forget the myth. Learn to BGS.

I know how to, and have done BGS. None of your arguments make it ok to give players yet another option to wage a shadow war. A blockade of the system, combined with effective countering is the best option. Your stance boils down to "spreadsheet furiously at each other until someone gets bored". It's stupid to say we should let people in open wage BGS warfare while untouchable.

 

[Mohrgan]

I know how to, and have done BGS. None of your arguments make it ok to give players yet another option to wage a shadow war. A blockade of the system, combined with effective countering is the best option. Your stance boils down to "spreadsheet furiously at each other until someone gets bored". It's stupid to say we should let people in open wage BGS warfare while untouchable.

Sure it does, because direct PvP has absolutely zero value to BGS states. FD have included PvE counters to every PvE action. To me, that says something. To me that says 'Fight your battles indirectly'. Your hammer isn't going to get that bolt through that piece of crystal. There are almost no nails out there. Stop making hammers. Stop expecting hammers to solve... well anything.

 

[Kaocraft]

I guess I need more time with the new system before I can say anything definitive. In principle, I like the new system. A lot. And I'm 100% OK with the C&P system making PVE activities more dangerous, convoluted, difficult, or consequential. But there are legibility issues right now which are preventing the C&P outcomes from feeling intuitive or predictable, and I think a lot of the mission systems ar going to need a re-think in order for them to make sense in the context of the new C&P system. I hope Frontier will do the necessary work to follow through on all of this and will take the time and effort necessary to make this whole complex system of interactions into something that flows. I am fearful that they may not do this and will abandon the project after a few more minor tweaks; but I really believe the the core of the new system is good and worthy of follow-through.

 

[AzraelDirge]

Sure it does, because direct PvP has absolutely zero value to BGS states. FD have included PvE counters to every PvE action. To me, that says something. To me that says 'Fight your battles indirectly'. Your hammer isn't going to get that bolt through that piece of crystal. There are almost no nails out there. Stop making hammers. Stop expecting hammers to solve... well anything.

I'm not asking that my hammer be made the most effective solution. You're saying it's entirely acceptable to slap the hammer out of my hand and tell me I'm a bad person for attempting to use it because hammers entertain me. Your statement also shows your ignorance, since PvP can absolutely touch BGS. Player deaths, killing and claiming the bounty from a wanted player, and just straight up murdering the guy with a stack of missions for your competing faction all have an effect. It's not as effective as running missions, but running missions makes me want to burn my desk. BGS is absolutely, mind-numbingly, inconceivably boring. I flew with a very large player group for a long time. One of the biggest issues we faced was enemy groups going to solo and PG and prepping our system for expansion by a power we did not want present. The idea of PvP flags would allow them to do the same thing in open, unimpeded by any blockade, flaunting their invincibility. Solo and PG should have zero effect on BGS, and PvP flags in Open are one of the worst ideas for this game I've ever heard, right up there with the Guardians being sexy, red skinned space elves with pointy teeth.

 

[Mohrgan]

I'm not asking that my hammer be made the most effective solution. You're saying it's entirely acceptable to slap the hammer out of my hand and tell me I'm a bad person for attempting to use it because hammers entertain me. Your statement also shows your ignorance, since PvP can absolutely touch BGS. Player deaths, killing and claiming the bounty from a wanted player, and just straight up murdering the guy with a stack of missions for your competing faction all have an effect. It's not as effective as running missions, but running missions makes me want to burn my desk. BGS is absolutely, mind-numbingly, inconceivably boring. I flew with a very large player group for a long time. One of the biggest issues we faced was enemy groups going to solo and PG and prepping our system for expansion by a power we did not want present. The idea of PvP flags would allow them to do the same thing in open, unimpeded by any blockade, flaunting their invincibility. Solo and PG should have zero effect on BGS, and PvP flags in Open are one of the worst ideas for this game I've ever heard, right up there with the Guardians being sexy, red skinned space elves with pointy teeth.

I'm happy for you to keep your hammer. And, you are right, I probably should have written 'almost' rather than 'absolutely'. All I did was open myself up to the minutia. I can also concede that a PvP Flag could be frustrating to those who specialize in hammering. Seeing nails converted into screws before your eyes, may be a bit beyond the pale.

That doesn't mean that the point expressed isn't valid. Direct PvP is a tangential activity that shouldn't be used to control the overall contour of the game. The systems in place have left an even playing field for all. Those with Hammers and those with Drills. My advice for a really big player group is to diversify. Gain members that both Hammer and Drill. There are plenty of player groups around that want to hammer, and plenty that want to drill. To be the most effective, you have to cover your bases. Get players in your group that will go into Solo/PG and Fortify your system(s). Get a full toolbox, hammers can't fix falling plaster.

 

[Darkfyre99]

OK, I get that. But it would make power play impossible for non-open players if it was true that you have to wait in open (as the wikki still says).

As is often the case, the wiki was wrong about that.

The appropriate response IMO was therefore to say that it wasn't actually true, not to point out that the person is suffering from a false perception about the intention of the C&P changes.

Call me crazy, but if a false conclusion is a based on a false premise, I'll correct both.