Zero throttle but still thrusting?

[bladebss]

Um, no...


I'm an IFR Certified Commercial Pilot. I have my own airplane (Cirrus SR22). If I shut down my engine while in flight, my REAL wings (and other flight surfaces) will continue to control the direction of my aircraft (until the aircraft stalls and stops "flying"). Please explain to me why you think "it makes more sense" for "MAGIC space wings" to behave any different.


It would also be "nice" if the flight model dropped a space anchor, boosted all your shields, dropped some chaff, popped a heat sink, and fired all your weapons as it pivoted around the target following you - but that's not how the FLIGHT MODEL works.

You asked your question and folks responded: FA ON = Airplane Flight Simulator, FA OFF = Spaceship simulator.

The flight models are perfectly consistent with the above analogy. They are IMPLEMENTED perfectly. If you are unhappy how the flight models are DESIGNED, then that is a different issue.

Personally, I'm happy with their consistency so I'll let you get on with whatever your trying to campaign for...

If you are unhappy with "magic space wings" then just fly FA OFF - its much more realistic anyway! (You still won't get your "Space Anchor" though...)

So.. 6 degrees of motion can happen in fa on. But not in a plaine. So the model isnt exactly like a plaine in fa on is it.

Of we are moving sideways in our magic space plaines and we change pitch, the wings downt grip the magic space air.

So why do they in one instance but not the other? That makes no sence magic plaines in space or not.

I dont think it makes sence for the ships to behave in this way and i dont think that the fa on flight model resembleing that of a plaine is so set in stone that this should override this, as many other aspects of the flight model in faon do not comply with the way plaines fly.

This is a space game and we are in space. If i put my throttle to zero FA should bring my ship to a stop. No matter what direction im pointing in or moving just like rotaion works and lateral thrust works. I have a throttle to tell the flight computer what speed i want to be going in the direction im pointing my ship so it should listen and do it. Its not going to make the flight model radicaly different it simply means the ship does every thing it does now when you tell it to, but doesnt change your direction when you have zeroes the throttle.

 

[evanevery]

Wrong again.

Additional degrees of motion certainly do happen if you add THRUSTERS to an aircraft. Ever heard of the Harrier or Osprey?

You don't like the flight model. You ask why something happens, we tell you.

You still don't like the flight model. You want to argue.

This thread is now officially a waste of time....

 

[dfgqsb]

I think it's caused by flight assist.
What flight assist do is "adjusting your ship to exactly match your current input", so if you zeros your throttle and have no other inputs, the computer would try to bring your ship to stillness.

When you pitched down a little like what you did in your video, the moment you stopped pitching, your ship is in a situation like the lower part of the picture. The black arrow means where you are facing, the green arrow means where you are going, and the blue arrows mean where your computer is outputting thrusts, to counter your current vector(the green arrow).

So your final trajectory would be like this:

That's why your ship would hit the station.

 

[Armyofducks2569]

I've watched the above video and don't know what your talking about tbh. Ships in ED don't just stop as soon as you 0 the throttle. They counter thrust to slow you down. Any movement after you've come to a halt are due to left over thrust from main engines ect.

They don't handle like cars or planes if anything they handle like small motor boats without the effects of water/wind resistance obviously. You 0 the throttle on a boat you'll continue in what ever direction your engines pointing until resistance stops you. (The thrusters are the resistance in ED)

 

[Ephraim Stone]

I think it's caused by flight assist.
What flight assist do is "adjusting your ship to exactly match your current input", so if you zeros your throttle and have no other inputs, the computer would try to bring your ship to stillness.

When you pitched down a little like what you did in your video, the moment you stopped pitching, your ship is in a situation like the lower part of the picture. The black arrow means where you are facing, the green arrow means where you are going, and the blue arrows mean where your computer is outputting thrusts, to counter your current vector(the green arrow).

So your final trajectory would be like this:

That's why your ship would hit the station.

Yep, bottom blue arrow is on the wrong side, but otherwise it's exactly what the model is doing.

Edit: arrow IS on the correct side!

 

[bladebss]

See now i thought the ship would be thrusting backwards and up not forwards and down. As the ship is trying to stop so would thrust in the oposite direction to travel. So i would reverse and miss the object even more than of i went straight.

 

[Thatchinho]

^This.

Basically with FA on, fdev made a model that would be instantly recognizable to anyone playing arcade plane games. In essence if you zero the throttle you still have momentum, but as you pitch your magic space wings grip the magic space air, generate a force, and allow you to turn in an arc, decelerating as you go.

Which is completely unrealistic.

What makes you say it’s unrealisitic? Sure there’s the the issues around the thrusters themselves and what is actually being used to produce such huge amounts of thrust, but putting that aside, flying in a curve is just down to using thrusters in the way needed to produce that curve, which is part of what FA models.

 

[Jukelo]

Ok I'm not sure if you're being serious or not?!

For the sake of brevity, the game only takes a shot at loosely modeling a small element of Newton's laws when you are FA off. And I do mean small.

It loosely models behaviour of a moving mass in a vacuum, ignoring all other forces acting upon it.

It completely ignores gravity, orbital velocity, reaction mass, mass of the object, all of which are parts of newtonian physics.

All of which are completely irrelevant to the OP's observation.

 

[Ephraim Stone]

All of which are completely irrelevant to the OP's observation.

Trolling. Ignored.

 

[777Driver]

It completely ignores gravity, orbital velocity, reaction mass, mass of the object, all of which are parts of newtonian physics.

FA-OFF doesn't ignore gravity or the mass of the ship. Also what do you by 'It ignores reaction mass'

Cheers

 

[Jukelo]

Trolling. Ignored.

Well that's certainly one way of running away from a discussion.

 

[Ephraim Stone]

What makes you say it’s unrealisitic? Sure there’s the the issues around the thrusters themselves and what is actually being used to produce such huge amounts of thrust, but putting that aside, flying in a curve is just down to using thrusters in the way needed to produce that curve, which is part of what FA models.

The issue you raise is central. Sounds like you appreciate it, so won't reiterate.

In some regards, FA on is perhaps more realistic than FA off.

In FA on we can handwavium that a computer is controlling those thrust inputs whilst accepting its non newtonian due to lack of reaction mass, unlimited thrust etc.

In FA off there is no computer assist, so no way to explain the lack of effect from all other forces.

 

[Jukelo]

I think it's caused by flight assist.
What flight assist do is "adjusting your ship to exactly match your current input", so if you zeros your throttle and have no other inputs, the computer would try to bring your ship to stillness.

When you pitched down a little like what you did in your video, the moment you stopped pitching, your ship is in a situation like the lower part of the picture. The black arrow means where you are facing, the green arrow means where you are going, and the blue arrows mean where your computer is outputting thrusts, to counter your current vector(the green arrow).

So your final trajectory would be like this:

That's why your ship would hit the station.

Not exactly. What you are showing in the first picture is what the OP wants, and would in fact counter his motion without any change in direction assuming those blue arrows are of the same length and the ship is inclined 45° away from his direction of motion.
Your second picture is what actually happens, and is a result of the flight assist computer thrusting harder with the ventral thrusters than with the retro thrusters, causing the ship's velocity to bend towards the direction the ship is facing, for the sake of emulating "the atmospheric feel" whereas the OP expects that, since the velocity vector they are asking the flight assist computer to target is null (throttle to zero), the only change to their velocity vector would be to bring it towards zero rather than change its direction.

The issue you raise is central. Sounds like you appreciate it, so won't reiterate.

In some regards, FA on is perhaps more realistic than FA off.

In FA on we can handwavium that a computer is controlling those thrust inputs whilst accepting its non newtonian due to lack of reaction mass, unlimited thrust etc.

In FA off there is no computer assist, so no way to explain the lack of effect from all other forces.

In case that bit about ignoring me was just empty bluster: the lack of effects from all those other factors isn't what is causing the discrepancy between what the OP expects and what actually happens and is not relevant to the discussion.

This isn't trolling, it's trying to keep the discussion on topic since it already has a lot of potential to confuse people.

 

[Vithigar]

What you seem to be asking for is for FA not to match your speed to your orientation. This however is core to the flight model. While it might make more sense to you, it doesn't make more sense in general, as FA is there to give the style of flying in question. And changing it would be a big change which would impact on everyone who ever flys with FA on.

What he is asking for is for FA to not apply any additional forward thrust when his throttle is specifically at zero.

 

[Vorxian]

I want to fly in reverse in SC

 

[Ephraim Stone]

FA-OFF doesn't ignore gravity or the mass of the ship. Also what do you by 'It ignores reaction mass'

Cheers

So in FA off we essentially become a brick in space (assuming we make no inputs). Thus we should either begin to describe an arc around the pre dominating celestial body. Or is we are below orbital velocity, start to de orbit. Or achieve escape velocity if we're really shifting!

Re reaction mass, it's the issue that our ships are on the magnitude of hundreds or thousands of tons. Ships "thrust" by throwing mass out in the opposite direction to the way you want to go. So where's all the mass coming from to keep making these radical maneuvers to such a large ship?

They are a couple of key problems that make real exploration of our solar system so difficult.

 

[bladebss]

What he is asking for is for FA to not apply any additional forward thrust when his throttle is specifically at zero.

Yes. This. Exactly this. Keep every thing else the same. Just this small detail of the model i want to be changed.

 

[Vithigar]

So in FA off we essentially become a brick in space (assuming we make no inputs). Thus we should either begin to describe an arc around the pre dominating celestial body. Or is we are below orbital velocity, start to de orbit. Or achieve escape velocity if we're really shifting!

Re reaction mass, it's the issue that our ships are on the magnitude of hundreds or thousands of tons. Ships "thrust" by throwing mass out in the opposite direction to the way you want to go. So where's all the mass coming from to keep making these radical maneuvers to such a large ship?

They are a couple of key problems that make real exploration of our solar system so difficult.

Our ships don't ignore gravity. Newtonian orbits are possible and people have done them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE7WPstMzsM

A (very) high velocity exhaust would reduce the need for reaction mass. You could accelerate a 500t object to roughly 210m/s with 1kg of reaction mass and an exhaust velocity of 0.5c.

 

[GraXXoR]

But i want to slow down as well. Like doing a hand brake turn in a car. I dont want to drift like a puck on the ice i want to stop and turn at the same time but not accelerate in a new direction.

Finally, I see what you're getting at.

ED's FA does't allow this.. It simulates an atmosphere, so if you throttle down, it will BOTH attempt to keep your ship flying nose first AND slow you down to standstill.
Thus if you turn while decelerating, you'll still change your vector due to lateral thrusters attempting to keep you're ship flying nose first until you come to a relative stop.

 

[Arthur Z.]

OP, FA is like VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) in a car. It's purpose is to maintain intuitive control over the vehicle and not provide "drifting" abilities. So when you move forward/backwards the goal of the system is to keep your ship always facing the trajectory.

Latheral thrusters are used for maneuvering and fine controll. This means, that when you fire your them they are used for brief trajectory correction (maybe to fly around an obsticle) so they are used as aid for your main trajectory.

If FA would try to slow you down in the direction you are facing all the time, then after just moving down the ship would change its trajectory to forward and you would most likely run into something.