The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Sakashiro]

Which are what when you are siting in an SRV?

During or after the glide, check if the instance is populated. Do not land if it is. If it isn't, land and dismiss the ship immediately. If someone arrives and kills you while you are in your SRV, you will respawn in your ship in orbit. No rebuy screen. You only lose one SRV. You can now retaliate if you like.

Many players do not dismiss their ship because they rely on point defense turrets as countermeasures to Guardian sentinel missiles. But this isn't necessary. The Guardian structures themselves provide shelter against the missiles. Just drive your SRV below one of the buildings, then attack the sentinel from there. The missiles always hit from above; they are useless if you have something solid over your head.

 

[Morbad]

For example, BGS groups killing rivals limited their impact on the BGS in question, people trying to stymie the opposition in a competive CG, or Powerplayer killing a rival factions commander caused the opponent to have to invest more time and credits into the tug of war than they originally envisaged, and in the earlier times (when credits werent so obscenely available and bonds etc could be lost due to death) could make an opponent retire from the competitive event in question.

I recall many an occasion where my allies, or enemies, had to withdraw from an area for the remainder of a CG because funds were getting low and recouping the losses endured would take days or weeks of less intensive activity.

Attrition was a thing, once upon a time, but not any more. Runaway rewards and other inflationary mechanisms depreciated a huge amount of gameplay.

This cuts both ways though and in the case of ganking, if there is nothing to gain, then there can be nothing for anyone to lose, because the oppositions' losses are gains. Indeed, loss aversion often makes harming one's foes more beneficial than securing gains for oneself.

Many players do not dismiss their ship because they rely on point defense turrets as countermeasures to Guardian sentinel missiles. But this isn't necessary. The Guardian structures themselves provide shelter against the missiles. Just drive your SRV below one of the buildings, then attack the sentinel from there. The missiles always hit from above; they are useless if you have something solid over your head.

Main reason to keep the ship around is if one is loading or unloading cargo from it, but otherwise it shouldn't be there.

 

[Sakashiro]

Tell me what in-game rewards you get from ganking? Money? Any more materials than by blasting NPCs? Seems to me there is no legit "gank" game loop.

You get notoriety and a bounty, which change the dynamics of the game. Your actions impact the BGS. You may even become part of a PvP bounty hunter's game loop. These are challenges, and challenges are content that make the game interesting.

It cannot be stressed enough: The game explicitly allows you to play a criminal.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

You get notoriety and a bounty, which change the dynamics of the game. Your actions impact the BGS. You may even become part of a PvP bounty hunter's game loop. These are challenges, and challenges are content that make the game interesting.

It cannot be stressed enough: The game explicitly allows you to play a criminal.

Which are not exactly rewards. Likewise one can "strength test" ships by colliding with immovable objects. And get "rewarded" by rebuy screen. Crash testing still is not gameplay loop. Plus those nasty soloers can do more for their faction than other side using wrong tools for wrong problem.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

It depends on whos being called a ganker I think.

For example, BGS groups killing rivals limited their impact on the BGS in question, people trying to stymie the opposition in a competive CG, or Powerplayer killing a rival factions commander caused the opponent to have to invest more time and credits into the tug of war than they originally envisaged, and in the earlier times (when credits werent so obscenely available and bonds etc could be lost due to death) could make an opponent retire from the competitive event in question.

Assuming opposition is there to be shot at.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

During or after the glide, check if the instance is populated. Do not land if it is. If it isn't, land and dismiss the ship immediately. If someone arrives and kills you while you are in your SRV, you will respawn in your ship in orbit. No rebuy screen. You only lose one SRV. You can now retaliate if you like.

Many players do not dismiss their ship because they rely on point defense turrets as countermeasures to Guardian sentinel missiles. But this isn't necessary. The Guardian structures themselves provide shelter against the missiles. Just drive your SRV below one of the buildings, then attack the sentinel from there. The missiles always hit from above; they are useless if you have something solid over your head.

Makes great social game...Assume everyone always as hostile, always look behind you, go to any somewhat popular place only during quiet hours. YAY the excitement. FUN.
Okay perhaps for somebodies. Not for me though.

 

[Sakashiro]

Which are not exactly rewards.

This is what many people here don't seem to understand. Surviving in the face of adversity is rewarding. It's the reason why people play games on high difficulty. I could fly a shield and hull tank Cutter all the time and never be bothered by anyone, but I intentionally fly an Adder, always averting the rebuy screen by a narrow margin. I understand that many people play ED for relaxation and prefer not to face any disruptions at all, but this isn't for everyone. The criminals spice up the game, for themselves and for people like me.

 

[Sakashiro]

Makes great social game...Assume everyone always as hostile, always look behind you, go to any somewhat popular place only during quiet hours. YAY the excitement. FUN.
Okay perhaps for somebodies. Not for me though.

You are thousands of light years away from civilization, at a place where there's valuable loot to be picked up. You went there alone. What did you expect?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

This is what many people here don't seem to understand. Surviving in the face of adversity is rewarding. It's the reason why people play games on high difficulty. I could fly a shield and hull tank Cutter all the time and never be bothered by anyone, but I intentionally fly an Adder, always averting the rebuy screen by a narrow margin. I understand that many people play ED for relaxation and prefer not to face any disruptions at all, but this isn't for everyone. The criminals spice up the game, for themselves and for people like me.

Games actually reward you for intended gameplay loops. Like for example that piracy loop, that WAS intended by designers. Whole another question for nowadays Elite is that is it at all nearly enough rewarding though. For gank loop there are only negative consequences. Which is kind of indicator it NOT being intended game loop at all.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

You are thousands of light years away from civilization, at a place where there's valuable loot to be picked up. You went there alone. What did you expect?

Considering that said "loot" is self replenishing, and available to all, I'd not expect any problems. Besides those caused by sites own defences. I just consider such behauviour as common trolling meta-game and react accordingly. You know that five character word, starts with "b"

 

[Sakashiro]

Games actually reward you for intended gameplay loops. Like for example that piracy loop, that WAS intended by designers. Whole another question for nowadays Elite is that is it at all nearly enough rewarding though. For gank loop there are only negative consequences. Which is kind of indicator it NOT being intended game loop at all.

If you get wanted status in GTA, the cops will chase you and you have to shake them off. That's a game loop. Cyberpunk 2077 has similar mechanics. So has ED. We can argue all day if ED's implementation is good or not, but it's there. The bounty is supposed to make your life more difficult. It also paints a target on your back. A squadron mate of mine once had a 400 million credits bounty on his head. His ganks affected the BGS in favor of our faction. He eventually had to pay up when he got caught by a bounty hunter. This is all intended gameplay by FDev.

Considering that said "loot" is self replenishing, and available to all, I'd not expect any problems. Besides those caused by sites own defences. I just consider such behauviour as common trolling meta-game and react accordingly. You know that five character word, starts with "b"

What's meta-game is your expectation that the loot is self-replenishing. In the real world it wouldn't be. In the real world you also wouldn't be able to block your adversaries. In the real world, going to a place like that would be dangerous, and some of us prefer to experience the game like that. It's called suspension of disbelief. That doesn't mean the game isn't social. On the contrary, it encourages players to team up and collaborate because there is strength in numbers.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

What's meta-game is your expectation that the loot is self-replenishing. In the real world it wouldn't be. In the real world you also wouldn't be able to block your adversaries. In the real world, going to a place like that would be dangerous, and some of us prefer to experience the game like that. It's called suspension of disbelief. That doesn't mean the game isn't social. On the contrary, it encourages players to team up and collaborate because there is strength in numbers.

Considering that guardian sites work as some kind data-archive "loot" is as replenishing as reading file from hard drive. And somehow those pilots involving themselves in those shenanigans don't get that "loot" themselves either. Unless they go down and activate site. Lets be real, those kind of attackers are same type who would also condider as "fun" to wreck say SRV race competition, and other activities. They don't give much "fun" to anything.

Edit. (What is unrealistic for Guardian stuff is necessity of everyone wanting to have such is need to obtain those blueprints from site, real world scenario would be somebody retrieved it, published findings, and somebody designed human tech compatible version, and sells it. For a right price. Though is true also for engineered modules. )

 

[Riverside]

Makes great social game...Assume everyone always as hostile, always look behind you, go to any somewhat popular place only during quiet hours. YAY the excitement. FUN.
Okay perhaps for somebodies. Not for me though.

That's a pretty good description of most if my sessions

The game can be played that way, there are plenty that do. If it's too easy, too dull then one can step it up a bit, if it's too stressful (or whatever) one can be more cautious to mitigate the risk. I do a lot of contingency planning and if I take risks try to make sure I am at least aware that I am taking a risk, what's at stake & that it may not pay off. We're all on that risk/mitigation spectrum somewhere.

 

[Riverside]

Games actually reward you for intended gameplay loops. Like for example that piracy loop, that WAS intended by designers. Whole another question for nowadays Elite is that is it at all nearly enough rewarding though. For gank loop there are only negative consequences. Which is kind of indicator it NOT being intended game loop at all.

Surviving an attack can be a huge adrenaline rush It's high stakes though, getting popped can be embarrassing & I can understand why some feel the risk to reputation or self esteem isn't worth it.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

That's a pretty good description of most if my sessions

The game can be played that way, there are plenty that do. If it's too easy, too dull then one can step it up a bit, if it's too stressful (or whatever) one can be more cautious to mitigate the risk. I do a lot of contingency planning and if I take risks try to make sure I am at least aware that I am taking a risk, what's at stake & that it may not pay off. We're all on that risk/mitigation spectrum somewhere.

Well I don't consider certain playstyle commanders as risks. I do consider them as breakers of one rule: "Don't be a "richard"." And reserve right to remove them from my game experience.

 

[Darrack]

Basic situational awareness to realize when someone is approaching, or has relogged into the instance. Immediately dismissing one's vessel and killing the SRV lamps (which are visible from extreme distances). Quickly assessing the threat potential of the newcomer, and if they are likely to be hostile, either moving to an area where it is safe to recall and evacuate, or setup a counter-ambush, hardware (or allies) permitting.

With a lightly equipped T-7, my CMDR's goal would simply be escape.

Yeah righto i think not, better to stay in Solo than always be looking over my shoulder for some low life so called 'skilled Ganker' who is that good he needs to attack non moving ground targets
Luckily thanks to Block if im in Open i will never meet that idiot again.

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

Ähhhh...no... did i write this is new? PP supporters can battle themself as much as they wish. I would also encourage every non pledged player (if he is capable) to attack every pledged player on sight. PP supporters (all, does not matter what power) are the only clear targets, that no one have to be in doubt if his victim is a bad person (the in-game char) and derserves it.

For the most part they already do, and quite easily deal with it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

All that would do is encourage players disinterested in PvP to block any player that shot at them, ever.

A blanket bonus for playing in Open would be ill applied, as most of Open is as devoid of other players as Solo, plus there's the aforementioned block option.

A bonus for PvP interaction would be abused by players gaining rewards designed for contested interactions by colluding to "earn" them uncontested.

Then there's the "elephant in the room" regarding reward based on risk, e.g. players in engineered ships face less risk, so should be rewarded less than players in non-engineered ships. Players in stock Sidewinders could have quite the influence on the galaxy, even more so in Open, if risk / reward influence / payment were implemented properly.

Weighted is a matter of design rather than it being impossible- I agree (and said similar things) that any bonus needs situational context but I can also say the reverse is true; if people are removing danger then why should they be blanket rewarded by an easier game? People here are using out of game / referrals to remove people before they even met them.

If FD choose to keep Powerplay as it is, this already gives you the framework for weighting- and you can look at the relative ships in cost (i.e. G5 FdL v stock Sidewinder as unequal and thus worth hardly anything against say two G5 Eagles on parity).

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Assuming opposition is there to be shot at.

Your post I quoted literally asked what the benefits of killing another players ship are/were in game. I think its reasonable if you pose that question to assume that there is a second person to shoot at in that scenario.

 

[Morbad]

I found some commentary on one of my old videos of an encounter that's still relevant to this never ending discussion.

Quite a few people at the time considered my CMDR the 'ganker' there, despite being outnumbered three-to-one and having been yanked out of SC via interdiction and then scanned without his consent. My CMDR was wanted, but the bounty (as mentioned by @Screemonster here) was originally accidental. After acquiring it my CMDR had simply continued participating in the CG as normal, only destroying CMDR who tried to claim, or looked like they might try to claim, his bounty.

As the Reddit thread hints at, quite a few people were positively incensed that I would have my CMDR would fire upon ships for interdicting and scanning him and I believe the leader of the wing I shot down actually quit the game shortly after. I am positive people blocked my CMDR after watching or hearing about this encounter (where I was scrupulously polite, aside from the weapons fire).

Anyway, my point here is that there is no amount of bending over backwards that is going to satisfy everyone, probably not even the majority of people, who believe there is a 'ganker problem'. No amount of accommodation is enough for that subset of the player base. There were as significant number of people who thought (and I know this because they told me) that my CMDR should have fled the CG, or that I should have retired to Solo, or that I should have suicidewindered (which was an actual cheat as far as I was concerned), or that I should have just let someone claim his bounty. Obviously, I thought these suggestions were contextless, immersion defying, and utterly absurd to the point of being offensive. So, I participated in the CG (top 10% by the way, Open-only of course) until my CMDR's bounty grew so large that people who actually knew what they were doing became curious and drove me off...probably just so novices would stop crying about getting shot down in system chat when they interdicted my CMDR.

As an aside, I want to note that this encounter also significantly predates Engineers, so there can be none of that Engineered vs. nEngineered scapegoatery; PvE bounty hunting experience was no preparation for PvP even then, and most people that had never fought another CMDR before would not have stood any chance against my CMDR, no matter what ships, loadouts, or how many equally inexperienced friends, they brought with them. The assertion that Engineering changed the power dynamic in a meaningful way is a myth.

This scenario is also an example of how a fixation on playing the game the way it's supposedly 'meant' to be played can lead to absurdity. My CMDR had a red WANTED on him, so of course all of these newbies were sure they were supposed to attack him, and of course he would just roll over and explode, like the thousand NPCs they had fought before...right?! People were following some stupid gamist assumption, rather than applying anything resembling sense, then getting offended when I refused cap my CMDR's skill at that of an NPC.

More than seven years later, Frontier still needs to fix their difficulty scaling.

It depends on whos being called a ganker I think.

In my case, the most tangible reward is usually not going to the rebuy screen or having to vacate the area, cause most of the people my CMDR 'ganks' are trying to shot him down...with most of balance either crapping up my BGS work, or fighting on the opposing side of a CZ.

Not remotely all, but a significant fraction of this loose anti-ganker crowd, thinks I'm not being accommodating enough unless I calmly explain to every piece of trash ignoramus trying to take a pot shot at my CMDR that I'd kindly rather they didn't, instead of just using all these damned guns he's got.

Yeah righto i think not, better to stay in Solo than always be looking over my shoulder

For me, the most enjoyable tests of skills aren't against 1v1mebros in identical loadouts in contrived scenarios (though I do practice these enough to only occasionally completely embarrass myself when they happen organically), it's overcoming the unexpected, when I'm not specifically looking for trouble. That's the PvP I'm looking for. And I've gotten fairly good at this sort of stuff...well, good enough that I've played essentially exclusively in Open for more than 7k hours and have never gotten my CMDR shot down in a scenario where I wasn't actively looking for trouble...have had plenty of exhilaratingly close calls though and they were the best PvP experiences I've had in most any game.

some low life so called 'skilled Ganker' who is that good he needs to attack non moving ground targets

What makes you think it was a ganker who attacked you at the Guardian ruins? Maybe it was someone who just wanted a blueprint and was wary around random CMDRs? I guess that depends on your definition of ganker...

I personally would probably have just left for another site, but if I was in enough of a hurry for a final blueprint or set of materials, I might have had my CMDR destroy yours, because I absolutely will not relog/reinstance to refresh things (it's something I think is a context defying exploit that should be patched out). The game does incentivize violence in these scenarios, because a warning often results in the stranger mode switching, which means I then have to watch my back for a hostile ship that could teleport in at any moment any where. Going for the ship destruction usually means buying enough time that I could get what I came for and get out before the retaliation attempt shows up.