Should Frontier start including less mammals in upcoming packs, and start giving us more us more of other classes?

[Pentoleaf]

Yes and no. There are dozens of birds I want to see in the game, but what I would be satisfied with is the grey crowned crane, a new pheasant, some kind of waterfowl, and an avian representative for each continent (habitat or WE).

For reptiles I would like an African dwarf croc, a large fresh water turtle, and maybe another tortoise as habitat animals. Exhibits could use more snakes and lizards (especially a chameleon!) but as the focus shifts to WE exhibits I feel like small animal exhibits are going to end up go by the wayside with the exception of fish.

Now that we have the option of having multiple species in a single exhibit, I think it's very likely we're going to get a bunch of koi, salt water fish, or cichlids as a mixed exhibit pack. And these will, unfortunately, probably be the only fish we ever get.

There are tons of mammals I would like to see as well, some less likely than others cough saiga cough but it is what it is. From a realistic zoo perspective, primates, ungulates, and small "filler" species (and yes, this does include small carnivores, canidae and felidae even!) are probably the most important.

 

[Captain Callum]

So, question then, but how many reptiles/birds would be necessary for it to feel more balanced?

@SalamAnders, you said we have 100 habitat mammals (I'm rounding), 9 habitat reptiles, 8 habitat birds.

So, how many more birds and how many more reptiles would we need?

How many should we need? Well I guess I can answer that based on my experience of recreating multiple American zoos (of course European zoos could differ). The typical American zoo will feature roughly a quarter of its collection in the avian department with easily 30-40 species of birds meanwhile reptiles only noticeably need small tortoise

I will talk about the absolute bare minimum rather than the ideal amount:

Birds :

20 species at the bare minimum. Typically 2-5 large free flight aviaries for birds of prey, two dozen aviaries of small birds especially African, south American and Asian specimens, and of course several larger ground dwelling birds.

• 2 birds of prey - a vulture and an eagle
• 6 habitat birds - examples are another flamingo, spoonbill. Ibis, crane, savannah African birds like secretary bird or helmeted guineafowl
• 12 smaller aviary birds - 4 south American, 4 Asian, 4 Oceania. European and north American are not as prominent as the above. Ideally we have 20 small birds alone but that's unrealistic for frontiers standards

Reptiles:

Not near as many as birds since we already have the stars of the show ingame. A decent reptile habitat area could be say 5 or 6 habitats with 60 percent of those collections have a reasonable substitute already in game. I would say a dozen more will provide ample coverage

• Another monitor
• An African crocodile
• 3 species of small tortoise
• 7 exhibit reptiles especially snakes

However one has to realise it simply isn't possible to include that many animals in a single zoo when recreating a full size zoo. 230 animals is my average for my recreations when recreating every real life habitat present in the zoo. I watch YouTube and gauge the animal number visible and add that in the zoo , adding dozens and dozens of birds would be very problematic. Adding 20 odd flamingoes in one habitat is bad enough for the performance

 

[Antimony96]

I don't have a clear answer to that, but I do have a bit of a work-in-progress ''system''.

The animal roster should be similar to how an average real zoo presents its animal roster on a zoo map.

The zoos we build in PZ are usually lower on total species than real zoos, especially since we don't have a lot of small species to fill in with. So the bigger species make up a higher percentage of the total animal in a zoo roster than they would in real life.
That is kind of similar to how it is often presented on zoo maps. Most of your big popular species will be visible on the map, while some smaller species will be absent or be put under one species to represent multiple. Though in some cases something like a giraffe could also represent multiple savannah species.
A birdhouse (20+ species maybe) would often be pointed out by one visible bird species on the map. One bird on the map (even if it symbolizes multiple species) equals one bird in the game.

An example. Antwerpen Zoo map (2017 I believe)

Tried this with a slightly dated map of my local zoo (Philadelphia) and got 13 birds, 25 mammals, and 3 reptiles--again, the entire aviary is represented by just a single bird species (the Victoria crowned pigeon)

 

[SalamAnders]

Tried this with a slightly dated map of my local zoo (Philadelphia) and got 13 birds, 25 mammals, and 3 reptiles--again, the entire aviary is represented by just a single bird species (the Victoria crowned pigeon)

Quite a similar pattern then. I have a collection of 50-100 zoo maps laying around. I have considered diving deeper into this and seeing what the average of them all would be. Just haven't really found the time yet.

 

[TuchA]

So, question then, but how many reptiles/birds would be necessary for it to feel more balanced?

@SalamAnders, you said we have 100 habitat mammals (I'm rounding), 9 habitat reptiles, 8 habitat birds.

So, how many more birds and how many more reptiles would we need?

I know... is more habitat reptiles needed? I know there is no Nile crocodile and maybe a smaller tortoise.... But really, in my opinion, reptiles are not so badly presented in the game at all (if we include exhibits). Of course, a cobra, a chameleon and maybe 2/3 more snakes are essential, but is there more?
Referring to the topic, I am that person who will be happy with any species. Whether it's a mammal, a bird, a reptile....

Monkeys are not in the game, it's true, but for me more ungulates are missing. Muskox, Gerenuk, Dik dik, Takin are important for me.
Somali wild ass, Saola, Nilgai, Kudu, Pere david's deer, Mouflon, Saiga, Blackbuck... They are already creating a second dlc, and it's just ungulate mammals. (I tried to list those that are not similar to those already in the game).

The topic of birds is familiar to everyone. We need more. Few people mention pheasants, and they too can already be implemented in the game...

 

[Captain Callum]

I think my local zoo (Highland wildlife park) is one of the few zoos that note every single animal on the map. Probably due to its pretty big compared to say a city zoo

 

[Karen F]

I know... is more habitat reptiles needed? I know there is no Nile crocodile and maybe a smaller tortoise.... But really, in my opinion, reptiles are not so badly presented in the game at all (if we include exhibits).

I think the exhibit reptiles are underrepresented. We still need at least a Chameleon, some agama (frilled Lizard), and a Gecko. We need another turtle and snakes: reticulated python or Burmese python, cobra and more vipers. A tree snake (python or boa) would be nice as Well.

 

[jcp011c]

Short answer: Yes

But this doesn't mean I don't want more mammals or don't understand why mammals are so important for a game like this.

The mammal/non-mammal ratio just seems off by now. We are close to 100 mammals and don't even have 10 birds yet. Had we seen just one bird in every pack we would be at 15 in total, which is still a pretty low number, but much better. And we don't even have a bird for each continent after 3 years.

The first 4 DLCs seemed to have a better mammal/non-mammal ratio (habitat species only).
13 mammals, 2 birds, and 1 reptile - 16 total

Then year 2 luckily introduced many more species, but only the mammals got to feel it.
21 mammals, 1 bird, and 1 reptile. - 23 total. Higher total, fewer non-mammals

Year 3: same total as year 2, the same amount of non-mammals as year 1 (which had a smaller total).
20 mammals, 2 birds, and 1 reptile.

If this year at least could get back to the same ratio as year 1, but with the same total amount of species as the past 2 years, then it would seem fairer to me. Even though there is some catching up to be done.

I think there's a lot of really good thoughts in this thread so far and appreciate the discussion! I'm singling out your post @SalamAnders because it very much represents my thoughts on this subject. especially the fact we have nearly 100 mammals and not even 10 birds yet. Mammals may almost always end up being the "big ticket" attractions are zoos, but if ones goes any zoo, 19 times out of 20, there's going to be more than just 1 bird for every 10 mammals.

Also like that you pointed out, even if I don't like the fact itself, that the situation isn't getting better. It looks like it may be getting worse if anything. But maybe if/when? they shift the Walkthrough exhibits to birds, that may change.

I think what really frustrated me the most is that when they added in the Red Crowned Crane, which in the real world can fly, it really opened up a whole new section of potential animals - regardless if they actually flew in game or not. I know nothing was promised, so this is sort of my own hopes and set expectations, but I really was hoping we'd see a habitat-acceptable "potential for flight" bird in every pack from there on out. I qualify that as we were already seeing penguins and ratites, so that was already possible. As it turns out, we haven't had another bird that maybe could fly in any of the last 3 packs, which makes the RCC's inclusion by itself a little baffling.

 

[Captain Callum]

I think what really frustrated me the most is that when they added in the Red Crowned Crane, which in the real world can fly,

I believe it is frontier imagined the cranes have their wings clipped like in real zoos, most crane habitats are open air anyways so if they could they would just fly away

 

[DarthQuell]

I believe it is frontier imagined the cranes have their wings clipped like in real zoos, most crane habitats are open air anyways so if they could they would just fly away

I mean, yes and no. I've never seen other cranes, but I was at the Houston Zoo today and the whooping cranes are in a covered habitat, as are the roseate spoonbills.

The flamingos and the southern screamers, though, are not

 

[Captain Callum]

I mean, yes and no. I've never seen other cranes, but I was at the Houston Zoo today and the whooping cranes are in a covered habitat, as are the roseate spoonbills.

The flamingos and the southern screamers, though, are not

I think it entirely depends on the zoo , some do some don't. I read an interview online that a zoo keeper was discussing that zoos with more than enough money will build a covered habitat to avoid the need for constant wing clipping needed for birds who generally would happily fly away however flamingos are typically not kept in an enclosed space is due to the public appeal of an open Habitat meaning constant need for animal maintenance

But yeah thinking about it all the cranes I have seen personally have been in covered habitats. Flamingos can be in a covered habitat when in a multi species habitat like Oregon zoos flamingo habitat features spoonbills, ibis, and ducks

 

[Pinguin]

We need alot of birds....but i think there is alot of interesting mammals yet...and especially more niche ones...and monkeys. Reptiles are fine tbh, i only want Sulcata Tortoise, but otherwise the monitors are too hard to build for...they need so much sapce it look really unrealistic....but yes we need birds...even habiat ones like:

Great white pelican
Roseate Spoonbill
Helmeted Gunieafowl
Himalayan Monal
Kiwi
Shoebill
Grey crowned Crane
Scarlet ibis
Mandarin duck
Nene Goose
Mute Swan

I think it would really enrich the roster with list like this.

 

[Fallax]

I mean, yes and no. I've never seen other cranes, but I was at the Houston Zoo today and the whooping cranes are in a covered habitat, as are the roseate spoonbills.

The flamingos and the southern screamers, though, are not

My local zoo, Chester, had cranes (Grey Crowned, Black Crowned & Wattled) in open top habitats until recently. However this part of the zoo has been closed off for a giant new African expansion and I imagine their new habitat will be a covered aviary, as Chester had their flamingos in an open top enclosure until recently and they are now in a mixed aviary.

 

[SalamAnders]

In the end, it doesn't really matter much how they are held in real life. The only thing that really matters is how they will appear and behave in the game. And for birds like cranes, flamingos, pelicans, and a lot of waterfowl, flying behavior is not important to make them appear believable, no matter if we decide to build an aviary for them or not.

 

[yoav_r]

Habitat reptiles I think we need:

• Any african crocodile
• African spurred tortoise
• Any australian monitor
• Large freshwater turtle (snapping, softshell...)

To really cover the bases

 

[Spiderhawk]

Here’s my thoughts
I think we need a lot more grounded birds
Reptiles under certain conditions
Less mammals? I got some ideas

Birds are a high priority for me. I will leave aviary talk out for this discussion. Swans, geese, ducks, wadding birds and other birds that aren’t gonna fly away or simply can’t fly need a presence.
Black and tundra swans. Nene geese. There are so many great types of ducks, maybe there can be a WE that can include a set of 5 ducks (place I worked kept wood, harlequin, king eiders and long tailed ducks in their aviary).
Currently no storks, therefore a Shoebill. Love cranes but I’d like to see other types of birds make their way in first.
South western USA and northern Mexico don’t have a lot going on, solution: Roadrunners
Rheas covers that last of the big birds on my mind.
Ocellated turkeys, Secretary birds, golden pheasants have crossed alot of peoples minds.

Reptiles. Now I personally don’t want anymore tortoises or crocs, just plain not interested. Il take a Perentie, any other monitor. I am personally afraid of alligator snapping turtles. Sea turtles I would welcome as they are highly requested on the forums and an aquatic species that I will agree with having in the game. I’ve always found the marine iguanas fascinating but I will accept the reality that they are pretty much impossible to keep in captivity due to difficult dietary needs.
Now I do want future dlcs to keep going with WE, but I would also like exhibits to come out alongside WE. We still don’t have any geckos or chameleons.

Now for the future dlcs. I’d be happy if for animal packs there would be slots reserved for birds and reptiles and if build dlcs then a spot for a bird. it would be a bit odd with majority non mammals.

 

[Antimony96]

Currently no storks, therefore a Shoebill. Love cranes but I’d like to see other types of birds make their way in first.

Shoebills aren't true storks and are actually more closely related to pelicans. I'd like at least one "true" stork (probably either white or marabou) as well.

 

[The_Riot22]

We do have plenty of mammals, and are really running out of many "must-haves" to put in the game.
My list of mammals that I would consider necessary either due to their popularity or to flesh out areas needing more animals are:

• Baboon
• Porcupine
• Sloth
• 1-2 small/medium cats
• Tasmanian Devil
• Markhor and 1 other mountain animal
• 2 Desert Animals(my choices would be Wild Ass and Addax)
• At least 1 more South American monkey

That's only 10-11 more must-have mammals, which is just shy of 2 packs. I'd be good with the other half of animals for 2023 to be reptiles/birds.

 

[jcp011c]

We do have plenty of mammals, and are really running out of many "must-haves" to put in the game.
My list of mammals that I would consider necessary either due to their popularity or to flesh out areas needing more animals are:

• Baboon
• Porcupine
• Sloth
• 1-2 small/medium cats
• Tasmanian Devil
• Markhor and 1 other mountain animal
• 2 Desert Animals(my choices would be Wild and Addax)
• At least 1 more South American monkey

That's only 10-11 more must-have mammals, which is just shy of 2 packs. I'd be good with the other half of animals for 2023 to be reptiles/birds.

I’d add one more pig-type and horse-type animal. Also I’d make the Wolverine the second moutain animal and this is an almost perfect mammal round up for me.

 

[YesIndeed]

We do have plenty of mammals, and are really running out of many "must-haves" to put in the game.
My list of mammals that I would consider necessary either due to their popularity or to flesh out areas needing more animals are:

• Baboon
• Porcupine
• Sloth
• 1-2 small/medium cats
• Tasmanian Devil
• Markhor and 1 other mountain animal
• 2 Desert Animals(my choices would be Wild and Addax)
• At least 1 more South American monkey

That's only 10-11 more must-have mammals, which is just shy of 2 packs. I'd be good with the other half of animals for 2023 to be reptiles/birds.

I don't understand why everyone says the Tasmanian devil is essential. Yes it's a cool animal that people really want. But if we only got one more animal from Oceania, a tree kangaroo, echidna or Possum would add so much more to the continent.